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  1. Renoktation's Avatar
    While it's true that Google will probably not give too much freedom to Microsoft to fork Android, Microsoft may just go around the problem and make UWP or Win 32 apps run on Surface DUO's Android through some sort of virtualization and Azure/cloud support. This will be similar to what HP did with Elite X3 to run legacy apps.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    10-08-2019 12:28 AM
  2. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Was this indicated in any way during the presentation? Also Google worked with MS to create the Duo and that version of Android.
    10-08-2019 12:47 AM
  3. justjun555's Avatar
    honestly It should. the hardware & hinge is amazing. 4:3 aspect ratio provides ideal screen real estate in laptop mode.

    all Microsoft needs to do is provide good virtual keyboard & virtual trackpad that works well in laptop mode.
    if possible Microsoft should also utilize space above virtual keyboard as task bar when surface duo is in laptop mode.

    design & hardware is truly worthy of pocket pc tag. now it's upto Microsoft to catch up with software. existing times ahead for fans.
    10-08-2019 02:59 AM
  4. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Until something comes out indicating this is where they're headed I'm going with the idea that this is all pure speculation and I think you might be a bit disappointed with the end product not meeting your expectations.

    If you want a small laptop with Windows get the Neo. I think that was pretty obvious in the presentation.
    10-08-2019 05:00 AM
  5. justjun555's Avatar
    I fully understand duo's limitations. But I think the laptop mode ( basically landscape mode ) can be utilized in right way by Microsoft if they provide some clever features inspired from Windows.
    10-08-2019 06:00 AM
  6. Renoktation's Avatar
    Until something comes out indicating this is where they're headed I'm going with the idea that this is all pure speculation.
    In fact, this is more than speculation. One of the tech blogs reported that they found something on github about JavaWinRT used to port UWP runtime to Android.

    In addition to this, Panos Panay himself mentioned a couple of times that he is impressed by the cloud initiatives of the launcher team.

    This has nothing to do with me or what I want. This is all about logical deduction, especially after what happened in Surface event!
    10-08-2019 06:04 AM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I still don't see the point of a device that small having Windows apps on it. Nor do I see the point of a laptop mode on a device that small.

    I don't see what cleaver features from Windows that would make the experience any better. It's a small device even when opened. At best you could add a keyboard and mouse separately but then you're no longer talking laptop.

    Currently the Duo is an Android device with a special OS that both Google and MS have worked on for dual screens.

    It's not a Windows device. It doesn't have Windows on it. There's no indication that Windows will be on it.

    Will it work with Windows? Yes, probably the most integrated Android device around. But it's still Android.

    Maybe they'll do something with Office apps that will be Continuum like but I don't see much else happening.

    Until something else gets said that's all you can go with. Like I said everything is speculation and will remain so until MS states otherwise. That's why I said what I said. If you put your expectations up too high they may not be met.

    MS isn't known for meeting user expectations.
    10-08-2019 06:21 AM
  8. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    In fact, this is more than speculation. One of the tech blogs reported that they found something on github about JavaWinRT used to port UWP runtime to Android.

    In addition to this, Panos Panay himself mentioned a couple of times that he is impressed by the cloud initiatives of the launcher team.

    This has nothing to do with me or what I want. This is all about logical deduction, especially after what happened in Surface event!
    Well, I found something that says otherwise.

    https://winbuzzer.com/2019/10/07/mic...p-apps-xcxwbn/

    Sorry, but until something more concrete than idle speculation and some blurbs picked out in conversation I'll stick to what is known.

    There's also a petition going to force MS to make a Windows X version of the Duo...

    Sigh.
    10-08-2019 06:55 AM
  9. justjun555's Avatar
    I still don't see the point of a device that small having Windows apps on it. Nor do I see the point of a laptop mode on a device that small.

    I don't see what cleaver features from Windows that would make the experience any better. It's a small device even when opened. At best you could add a keyboard and mouse separately but then you're no longer talking laptop.
    We are talking about running apps through virtualization not natively.

    Laptop mode is special because thanks to 2nd screen surface duo doesn't need physical keyboard & mouse.
    Touch screen keyboard & virtual trackpad can be perfectly serviceable for most of the task.

    By Laptop mode I meant using surface duo in landscape orientation in which 1st display run app or game & 2nd act as input through virtual keyboard/virtual trackpad , virtual gamepad, app specific controls like think about photo editing where 2nd screen provides all the tools and 1st screen only acts as main canvas etc.
    10-08-2019 11:38 AM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    Also Google worked with MS to create the Duo and that version of Android.
    It was clearly mentioned during the Duo presentation that Microsoft is working with Google on this. However, I wonder to what extent this "partnership" goes. I suppose one could say that all hardware vendors "partner" with Google in order to get Android on their device.

    Vendor: "Hey Google, we just designed a new device here on which we would like to install Android and then sell it."
    Google: "OK, here is the OS install file, and here is a PDF with the Terms and Conditions."

    For the record, I know it is much more complicated than this! But how much different is Android on the Duo going to be than Android on any other phone with Android? Is there really a deep partnership in the design, UI, and integration of Duo's Android? I would imagine that utilizing the dual screen will take some engineering, but is Microsoft going to be modifying the UI for example more than a vendor like Samsung?
    10-08-2019 01:34 PM
  11. Renoktation's Avatar
    I suppose one could say that all hardware vendors "partner" with Google in order to get Android on their device.

    But how much different is Android on the Duo going to be than Android on any other phone with Android?
    This is why I believe that there has to be something more with Duo. Otherwise, the only thing distinguishing Duo with any other Android phones (including dual screen phones) is the hinge design.

    Just think about it, why will Microsoft make just another Android phone? Panos Panay is hiding something!
    10-08-2019 02:06 PM
  12. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    We are talking about running apps through virtualization not natively.

    Laptop mode is special because thanks to 2nd screen surface duo doesn't need physical keyboard & mouse.
    Touch screen keyboard & virtual trackpad can be perfectly serviceable for most of the task.

    By Laptop mode I meant using surface duo in landscape orientation in which 1st display run app or game & 2nd act as input through virtual keyboard/virtual trackpad , virtual gamepad, app specific controls like think about photo editing where 2nd screen provides all the tools and 1st screen only acts as main canvas etc.
    Yes I understood what 'laptop mode' meant. Similar to the Neo in other words.

    What I said was that the device is technically too small to use in this way. You're talking about using Windows apps in a desktop and keyboard mouse setup on screen sizes around 6" each (the Duo is about the size of the Samsung Note when closed). That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly would you achieve on such a small screen size?

    As for UWP apps. If they work great. It makes no difference to me personally and there's probably very few Android users who would care.
    10-09-2019 01:06 AM
  13. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    It was clearly mentioned during the Duo presentation that Microsoft is working with Google on this. However, I wonder to what extent this "partnership" goes. I suppose one could say that all hardware vendors "partner" with Google in order to get Android on their device.

    Vendor: "Hey Google, we just designed a new device here on which we would like to install Android and then sell it."
    Google: "OK, here is the OS install file, and here is a PDF with the Terms and Conditions."

    For the record, I know it is much more complicated than this! But how much different is Android on the Duo going to be than Android on any other phone with Android? Is there really a deep partnership in the design, UI, and integration of Duo's Android? I would imagine that utilizing the dual screen will take some engineering, but is Microsoft going to be modifying the UI for example more than a vendor like Samsung?
    There's nothing really written exactly what Google and MS did but it appears that they worked together on making the dual screen OS useful. Googles apps are being designed to work with the dual screen setup as well along with the MS apps.

    Also there's talk that the launcher will be more integrated into the OS as well.

    My guess is that this phone will integrate seamlessly with Windows through My Phone and possibly some form of Continuum.
    10-09-2019 01:11 AM
  14. Drael646464's Avatar
    I still don't see the point of a device that small having Windows apps on it. Nor do I see the point of a laptop mode on a device that small.

    I don't see what cleaver features from Windows that would make the experience any better. It's a small device even when opened. At best you could add a keyboard and mouse separately but then you're no longer talking laptop.

    Currently the Duo is an Android device with a special OS that both Google and MS have worked on for dual screens.

    It's not a Windows device. It doesn't have Windows on it. There's no indication that Windows will be on it.

    Will it work with Windows? Yes, probably the most integrated Android device around. But it's still Android.

    Maybe they'll do something with Office apps that will be Continuum like but I don't see much else happening.

    Until something else gets said that's all you can go with. Like I said everything is speculation and will remain so until MS states otherwise. That's why I said what I said. If you put your expectations up too high they may not be met.

    MS isn't known for meeting user expectations.
    I'd like to see this evidence. Making it with no easy software bridge between the duo and neo would be a massive, massive market mistake.

    There's nothing preventing MS putting the UWP software environment into android either. Emulators are commonplace.

    Panoy says something vague about an 'app platform' and 'the cloud'. Sounds possibly like a bridge, but also super vague.

    If neo, and duo, the only two dual screen devices of real note, have to be developed for seperately, they are both dead in the water.

    Can you imagine if apple, or google made two devices, the only ones with their form factor, and their form factor is shared, in different OSes with no easy software bridge?

    No forget whether people like windows, or android, or what native apps are available, simply making it so that if someone wants to write a dual screen app, and either has to do it TWICE, or PICK ONE, is a total, unforgivably bad mistake. It would mean both ecosystems would be starved of the sort of polished dual screen intergration they both need to be a success.

    And they need to do better than merely suggesting people use xamarin. A lot better. This is game time, and a split ecosystem is a huge fumble.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 10-10-2019 at 02:13 AM.
    10-10-2019 02:00 AM
  15. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    And they need to do better than merely suggesting people use xamarin. A lot better. This is game time, and a split ecosystem is a huge fumble.
    All tech companies fumble and sometimes even at the worst times.

    MS will be fine if both the Duo and Neo die. That's the simple truth.

    Don't put too much emotion into this. It's just a product. There will be other products.

    I find this whole thing both amusing and startling how invested people are getting about this.
    10-10-2019 03:08 AM
  16. Renoktation's Avatar
    All tech companies fumble and sometimes even at the worst times.

    MS will be fine if both the Duo and Neo die. That's the simple truth.
    That is the reason they fail most of the time! In the words of Phil from Avengers, they lack "CONVICTION" because their CMO is a total joke(r).

    10-10-2019 01:56 PM
  17. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    That is the reason they fail most of the time! In the words of Phil from Avengers, they lack "CONVICTION" because their CMO is a total joke(r).
    I think you misunderstand their conviction...

    It's not about their OS or their hardware. It's about their services. That is MS in a nutshell.

    I don't think most people get that.
    10-11-2019 03:20 AM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    All tech companies fumble and sometimes even at the worst times.

    MS will be fine if both the Duo and Neo die. That's the simple truth.

    Don't put too much emotion into this. It's just a product. There will be other products.

    I find this whole thing both amusing and startling how invested people are getting about this.
    Emotion? Huh?

    Sure MSFT will be fine if both products fail. But it would interfere with their one OS plan, and it would generally be unintelligent.
    10-11-2019 07:42 AM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    I think you misunderstand their conviction...

    It's not about their OS or their hardware. It's about their services. That is MS in a nutshell.

    I don't think most people get that.
    I'd say software. Azure is about 1/3 of business, but so are games. Certainly, hardware doesn't matter jack, except as a means to expand their OS capabilities to new users. But OS kind of does; they have a lot more power to push their profits if they control the environment. Virtually no one uses MS services on android, and the profits from that are piffling. In that, I think actually hardware and OS do both matter - if windows didn't exist, or xbox, microsoft would barely be anything.
    10-11-2019 07:45 AM
  20. Ryujingt3's Avatar
    I don't think it will happen. As MS mentioned they worked with Google on the Duo, chances are they'd never allow anything like that which threatens their ecosystem.
    10-11-2019 08:42 AM
  21. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Virtually no one uses MS services on android, and the profits from that are piffling.
    I think Daniel Robino would disagree with this statement.

    https://www.windowscentral.com/why-s...rating-systems

    Read the comments that Daniel has left in there.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-11-2019 09:12 AM
  22. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I'd say software. Azure is about 1/3 of business, but so are games. Certainly, hardware doesn't matter jack, except as a means to expand their OS capabilities to new users. But OS kind of does; they have a lot more power to push their profits if they control the environment. Virtually no one uses MS services on android, and the profits from that are piffling. In that, I think actually hardware and OS do both matter - if windows didn't exist, or xbox, microsoft would barely be anything.
    MS makes a lot of money in a lot of different ways. Mostly on services. Services can be software, OS, etc. Enterprises that use MS products and services are based on subscriptions.

    The more I read comments concerning MS the more I'm coming to the realisation that a lot of people are hung up on Windows and have very little clue what else MS does.

    That's a general statement.
    10-11-2019 09:18 AM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    MS makes a lot of money in a lot of different ways. Mostly on services. Services can be software, OS, etc. Enterprises that use MS products and services are based on subscriptions.

    The more I read comments concerning MS the more I'm coming to the realisation that a lot of people are hung up on Windows and have very little clue what else MS does.

    That's a general statement.
    Well Windows 10 whilst not wildly profitable in itself serves the same role as android and chrome do for google. They are a marketplace for their software. The platform for everything else.

    MS makes about 9 billion for it's could catergory which includes azure, office subscriptions etc, 10 billion from enterprise, 9 billion for intelligent edge, including microsoft networking in enterprise and azure +They make about 13 billion for their more computing category with includes gaming, windows licenses, surface products and search advertising (some of those obvious overlap).

    I suppose if you want to include all software as 'a service' even if it's not a subscription model, most of it is a service. But it's still a selection of services that would be considerably less profitable without windows.

    No one specifically tallies the profits from services sold on phones, but I seriously doubt it compares favourably to any of these other segments. I wonder if it even competes much with profits from surface devices, let alone the massive profits from sale of software on windows itself.

    If it did, they'd be spending more money on developing it. Look at the selection of android apps, and compare to the complexity of something like azure, windows server, or their extensive selection of gaming houses. It's anaemic, really. Obviously, they want to expand into it, but I think honestly that's more about 'mindshare' than it is about pure profitability.

    I mean google is king of android, and the vast majority of their money comes from search advertising. Stuff like cloud storage etc: It's big money for small fish, but small money for big fish. Most of what Google offers as services aren't really that profitable, they just keep people using google search.
    10-12-2019 04:55 AM
  24. Drael646464's Avatar
    I think Daniel Robino would disagree with this statement.

    https://www.windowscentral.com/why-s...rating-systems

    Read the comments that Daniel has left in there.
    Daniel talks a big game, but he has a reasonably prominent record of predictions that turned out to be wrong. He was just saying a month ago how 'andromeda' was scraped and there would be no phone. His 'inside information' is severely wonky.

    His arguments about how skype is popular on android etc are kind of moot; how much actual money does that make versus say, office subscriptions on windows 10? I'm not saying it makes no money, I'm just saying it's ALL small biscuits next to anything happening on a desktop or laptop or xbox.
    10-12-2019 04:56 AM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    I don't think it will happen. As MS mentioned they worked with Google on the Duo, chances are they'd never allow anything like that which threatens their ecosystem.
    There are a whole host of emulators in the play store. There have been win32 emulators in the playstore, it was just killed because MSFT owns the patents. The number of people out there playing PSP games is reasonably high.

    AFAIK the conditions of licensing do not stipulate anything that could prevent an emulated software subsystem. Likewise, if xbox games can be streamed with low latency, anything can. If google took a stand against emulation, or streaming, it would a bigger deal than something just between google and msft.

    Mind you I have no idea what MSFT plan. I doubt android is a long term game plan. I think running on the android platform and having that compete with the duo for developer attention without the easiest software bridge in the history of software bridges is a mistake. But I have no idea what they have up their sleeve, or don't.

    I've been here long enough to know they have 1 parts genius, 1 parts what the hell are you thinking, and unlike the old days, they actually keep secrets.
    10-12-2019 05:17 AM
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