1. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    Walking cat, the man who leaked us the dual screen folding cshell capability hidden in windows code, all those years back (which certainly turned out to be credible!), found this:

    https://mspoweruser.com/evidence-mic...me-to-android/

    No official acknowledgement, but that said, UWP api capability on android via java plus azure capability which is officially recognized, would make the Duo and Neo actually share an app platform and thus would feed development from one, more directly into the other, no? Which would be a smart move.

    Unless my non-coder head is muddling this up.

    This is inspired by another thread, but I thought a post with direct reference to the 'evidence' might make a better discussion thread.
    10-14-2019 10:54 PM
  2. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    At this point in time MS has indicated Xamarin for UWP developers to use to transfer over to Android.

    So if this is possibly UWP on Android it means a while away. But then begs the question of why tell UWP developers to use Xamarin?

    I remain open to ideas but until MS comes out and says this is where they're heading I would think of it as a nice idea with the possibility of being true.

    Probably won't get those answers until the official release of Duo. Unless they start working with developers before then, with possible strict disclosure clauses so we'll never know. MS is a bit more heavy handed than Google.
    Laura Knotek and Ben Moss 526 like this.
    10-15-2019 04:57 AM
  3. TechFreak1's Avatar
    @Jamie Brahm
    Well, they sort of have to because they need to make the API's interchangeable so the apps will work on both the DUO and NEO devices with minimal work otherwise we will end up in a situation there will be apps for the DUO but not for the NEO.

    In terms of security - this the only way they can tie android o/s into the windows ecosystem without adding the android o/s integration at kernel level thus introducing an attack vector that has an approx 900 million+ possible end points (qualcomm android flaw aka quadrooter and that's just one that we know about -it's especially concerning as Microsoft is solely using Qualcomm's ARM socs or custom variants).

    People don't think about that when they want windows to run android apps do they... lol (not to mention Google's tendencies - here's a taster - i.e. www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/21/google-sued-tracking-44m-uk-iphone-users-browsing-data-apple-safari). I'm not saying Windows doesn't already has it's own flaws, exploits and holes we really don't need to another large dose of it from the Android O/S side of the equation lol.

    Nothing is infallible.

    @N_LaRUE because by telling Devs to use Xamarin is a face saving measure as they know they f'd up pretty badly. Otherwise it's waving a surrender flag and allowing Google to dominate unchecked.

    This all could have been avoided if the Microsoft had the foresight to not axe the mobile division after acquiring the D&S division from Nokia, this decision is going to come back and kick them in the rear end constantly for alooooooooooooooooooooong time.

    In any case, I'm quite optimistic about this news because Microsoft can use these APIs for a forked version of Android and additionally these would allow other OEMS to tie their forked versions of Android to these APIs. Thus challenging Google's dominance in that regard and Google can't do much about this at all without looking extremely bad.

    Especially there are now two major OEMs visibly trying to reduce their reliance off Google's version of Android. That being sad, I wouldn't put it past Google to not try underhanded tactics.

    As I said before I personally have nothing against the Android O/S - it's Google's practises I have issues with and the security vulnerabilities of Android o/s.
    10-15-2019 04:30 PM
  4. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    @TechFreak1

    I think your perspective is a bit off.

    MS isn't a hardware company and their shareholders didn't want them as a hardware company. Buying Nokia mobile was a complete mistake. It should never have happened. It served no purpose and WP was already starting to falter at that point.

    The Android OS on the Duo is a specialized OS agreed with Google and designed in conjunction with them. So whatever extras are in there Google knows about and is happy to comply. I don't think MS will sell many of these things and I don't think it's their plan to. They may however encourage others to use that OS and the APIs, if they're there.

    I don't think Samsung is going to drop Android any time soon. Huawei is due to other things and has little to do with their desire to drop Android on their own. Unless you're referring to another OEM?

    You may not like Google but they're really no different than any other tech company. Also the only security flaws in Android are found when people download from other stores. It's risky. No different than downloading a Windows program from an unknown source. Shall we talk how poor the security is on Windows still?

    I'm not obsessed with any tech company. They all pretend to be our friends but they're just in it for the money and our data. I don't trust any of them more than the other. They all have faults.

    I love tech but I think it's gone to a place I'm not really enjoying anymore. Might be my age.
    DavidBS1989 likes this.
    10-16-2019 07:51 AM
  5. DavidBS1989's Avatar
    @TechFreak1

    I think your perspective is a bit off.

    MS isn't a hardware company and their shareholders didn't want them as a hardware company. Buying Nokia mobile was a complete mistake. It should never have happened. It served no purpose and WP was already starting to falter at that point.

    The Android OS on the Duo is a specialized OS agreed with Google and designed in conjunction with them. So whatever extras are in there Google knows about and is happy to comply. I don't think MS will sell many of these things and I don't think it's their plan to. They may however encourage others to use that OS and the APIs, if they're there.

    I don't think Samsung is going to drop Android any time soon. Huawei is due to other things and has little to do with their desire to drop Android on their own. Unless you're referring to another OEM?

    You may not like Google but they're really no different than any other tech company. Also the only security flaws in Android are found when people download from other stores. It's risky. No different than downloading a Windows program from an unknown source. Shall we talk how poor the security is on Windows still?

    I'm not obsessed with any tech company. They all pretend to be our friends but they're just in it for the money and our data. I don't trust any of them more than the other. They all have faults.

    I love tech but I think it's gone to a place I'm not really enjoying anymore. Might be my age.
    So, in your opinion, what is the motivation of MS launching this Android device? What do you mean when you say that "they should encourage other to use this OS and their API's?

    I agree with MS is not a HW developer, and I think that is using this device as a way to gain users for a future Microsoft OS in mobile world again.
    10-16-2019 01:32 PM
  6. TechFreak1's Avatar
    @N_LaRUE

    1) I disagree, the mobile division was not that different than the Surface division it did not make them a hardware company. Retaining the supply chain, the factories and people who worked in their factories would have made them into a hardware company in the traditional sense.

    However whether Satya Nadella likes it or not they are still a hardware company - they make mices, keyboards and if the Surface devices aren't hardware I don't what is lol. Let's not forget Xbox and Hololens. It can be spun however Microsoft wishes - i.e a devices and services company - but these devices are still hardware are they not?

    Additionally, the mobile division could have been downsized and did not need to be axed.

    In regards to Windows phone faltering?

    There were regions were Windows phone was making headway in here is one key flash point:

    http://www.kantarworldpanel.com/glob...-Windows-phone

    After mobile division was axed - quite publicly if I might add Windows phone completely plummeted. Along with developer interest across the board thus all momentum for UWA and caused companies to drop their Windows or UWP ambitions. Thus ultimately they did not have any transitional leverage points to spring board the NEO or DUO from.

    2) Yes, it's a specialised version of Android however it still is reliant on Google's mobile suite - you do not get access to the Google's play store if you do not embed it in it's entirety into the O/S including all associated APIs. Therefore Microsoft is still at Google's whim just like any other OEM.

    Sure, Microsoft won't sell many of the Duo however developer momentum is till dependent on visible adoption. Key word here - visible - as that expands mindshare.

    In regards to Samsung, don't forget Tizen O/S and Bixby.

    3)I did also mention Windows does have flaws etc and I quote:

    I'm not saying Windows doesn't already has it's own flaws, exploits and holes we really don't need to another large dose of it from the Android O/S side of the equation lol.
    Again, I disagree it's not just risky apps people are sideloading on Android - this is just from a a few minutes search under - Android vulnerability arstechnica.

    Published: October 04 2019
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/attackers-exploit-0day-vulnerability-that-gives-full-control-of-android-phones/

    Published: September 05 2019
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/android-zeroday-gives-hackers-a-way-to-elevate-attacks/

    Published: Aug 2018
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/qualcomm-chip-flaws-expose-900-million-android-devices/

    Published: April 2018
    arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vulnerability-leads-to-googleepic-games-spat/

    Published: July 2015
    http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechc...=1571248393899

    Published: April 2017
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/wide-range-of-android-phones-vulnerable-to-device-hijacks-over-wi-fi/

    Published: Jan 2017
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/google-plugs-severe-android-bootmode-vulnerability/

    Published: May 2016
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/05/5-year-old-android-vulnerability-exposes-texts-and-call-histories/

    Published: Mar 2015
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/freak-flaw-in-android-and-apple-devices-cripples-https-crypto-protection/

    Published: Aug 2013
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/google-confirms-critical-android-crypto-flaw-used-in-5700-bitcoin-heist/

    Published: Jul 2013
    arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/android-flaw-allows-hackers-to-surreptitiously-modify-apps/

    I'm not a fan boi either, I am always heavily critical of Microsoft and have been so in the past. Plus that Safari exploit that Google is being sued for was not due to side loaded or jailbroken apps.

    My household is a multi-platform household so I can see the merits, advantages and disadvantages of each platfrom. Heck, I've ripped Microsoft heavily on the forums about the issues surrounded Windows Phone.

    What I'm trying to get across is that Google does not deserve the blasé pass most people obliviously give to them. This applies to every single company and I've said it before - the whole concept of fanboyism is profoundly naive as multi-billion dollar corporations do not care about a person other than their profits.
    N_LaRUE and Drael646464 like this.
    10-16-2019 02:04 PM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    So, in your opinion, what is the motivation of MS launching this Android device? What do you mean when you say that "they should encourage other to use this OS and their API's?

    I agree with MS is not a HW developer, and I think that is using this device as a way to gain users for a future Microsoft OS in mobile world again.
    The device will be full MS services with the exception of Google Play store. MS launcher, MS Office, OneDrive, etc.

    It's to get people using their services.

    The OS that MS and Google developed is for dual screen devices. So it's possible that MS will be looking at this as a possible OS distribution for other devices for other OEMs. That was my thinking.
    10-17-2019 02:32 AM
  8. Razius's Avatar
    The device will be full MS services with the exception of Google Play store. MS launcher, MS Office, OneDrive, etc.

    It's to get people using their services.

    The OS that MS and Google developed is for dual screen devices. So it's possible that MS will be looking at this as a possible OS distribution for other devices for other OEMs. That was my thinking.
    I agree with your thinking, but my only gripe is they better be ready to provide timely updates/monthly security patches like Google does for the pixel phones. I only say this because that's what people complain about non stock android.
    10-18-2019 08:29 AM
  9. Drael646464's Avatar
    @Jamie Brahm
    Well, they sort of have to because they need to make the API's interchangeable so the apps will work on both the DUO and NEO devices with minimal work otherwise we will end up in a situation there will be apps for the DUO but not for the NEO.

    In terms of security - this the only way they can tie android o/s into the windows ecosystem without adding the android o/s integration at kernel level thus introducing an attack vector that has an approx 900 million+ possible end points (qualcomm android flaw aka quadrooter and that's just one that we know about -it's especially concerning as Microsoft is solely using Qualcomm's ARM socs or custom variants).

    People don't think about that when they want windows to run android apps do they... lol (not to mention Google's tendencies - here's a taster - i.e. www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/21/google-sued-tracking-44m-uk-iphone-users-browsing-data-apple-safari). I'm not saying Windows doesn't already has it's own flaws, exploits and holes we really don't need to another large dose of it from the Android O/S side of the equation lol.

    Nothing is infallible.

    @N_LaRUE because by telling Devs to use Xamarin is a face saving measure as they know they f'd up pretty badly. Otherwise it's waving a surrender flag and allowing Google to dominate unchecked.

    This all could have been avoided if the Microsoft had the foresight to not axe the mobile division after acquiring the D&S division from Nokia, this decision is going to come back and kick them in the rear end constantly for alooooooooooooooooooooong time.

    In any case, I'm quite optimistic about this news because Microsoft can use these APIs for a forked version of Android and additionally these would allow other OEMS to tie their forked versions of Android to these APIs. Thus challenging Google's dominance in that regard and Google can't do much about this at all without looking extremely bad.

    Especially there are now two major OEMs visibly trying to reduce their reliance off Google's version of Android. That being sad, I wouldn't put it past Google to not try underhanded tactics.

    As I said before I personally have nothing against the Android O/S - it's Google's practises I have issues with and the security vulnerabilities of Android o/s.
    It is a problem. If devs have to change their codebase to get their apps on both neo and duo, that's an extra step. If the code before compile isn't simply identical, that's an extra step.

    Every extra step is less software for both platforms. A UWP software environment on android would fix that.
    10-19-2019 09:21 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    The device will be full MS services with the exception of Google Play store. MS launcher, MS Office, OneDrive, etc.

    It's to get people using their services.

    The OS that MS and Google developed is for dual screen devices. So it's possible that MS will be looking at this as a possible OS distribution for other devices for other OEMs. That was my thinking.
    That's IMO a bad theory. Duo sales will be insignificant next to the entire phone market, and app based services are a low-end source of earnings. Worse, because they are so low end, MSFT usually bundles them - so if you have them on your PC, you also have them on your phone already (if you want them there).

    MSFT for example doesn't make diddly from outlook. They make proper dosh from office subs, and perhaps they might find a few converts there, for their PCs, but they HAVE to have a bigger play in mind here than app services. Especially because the phone is locked to google search, and they can't even make as much money using bing.
    10-19-2019 09:26 AM
  11. Drael646464's Avatar
    At this point in time MS has indicated Xamarin for UWP developers to use to transfer over to Android.

    So if this is possibly UWP on Android it means a while away. But then begs the question of why tell UWP developers to use Xamarin?

    I remain open to ideas but until MS comes out and says this is where they're heading I would think of it as a nice idea with the possibility of being true.

    Probably won't get those answers until the official release of Duo. Unless they start working with developers before then, with possible strict disclosure clauses so we'll never know. MS is a bit more heavy handed than Google.
    Ugh, I mean I expect we'll have years of windows central and various fans telling us what will and won't happen, before microsoft proves all of us wrong.

    I'm not saying it will happen, or it won't. I'm just saying that it's possible, and might be smart. I mean UWP could certainly use the boost, and frankly so could these two very niche devices, in terms of developer support.

    I mean maybe it's not that. Equally a set of api's that enable 100% code cross-compatibility between android and windows devices, so you literally just tick "compile for android, compile for windows" and that's the only difference. Use azure as a centre peice.

    I mean I'm not a coder, but I just think that ANY barrier to coding for the two only dual screen devices with a chance of real success for MSFT, is a mistake.
    10-19-2019 09:34 AM
  12. TechFreak1's Avatar
    It is a problem. If devs have to change their codebase to get their apps on both neo and duo, that's an extra step. If the code before compile isn't simply identical, that's an extra step.

    Every extra step is less software for both platforms. A UWP software environment on android would fix that.
    Yup, every extra step is an issue in terms of software.

    Similiarly, the extra step to open up the start menu to see live tiles = reduced useage indicative in telemetry data.
    Jamie Brahm and Drael646464 like this.
    10-19-2019 02:22 PM

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