1. Renoktation's Avatar
    I feel that Microsoft marketing of Surface Duo should have been more 'specific'. After some serious thinking, I finally understood the significance of a device like Surface Duo.

    The entire marketing campaign around this device is based on it's multitasking capabilities and running two separate apps on two different screens. But this doesn't feel right. After all, multitasking is a challenge even on a 15 inch laptop. Hence serious users like developers and video editors need to buy a separate monitor to supplement their laptop. How will then multitasking be a selling point on a 7 inch form factor?

    The real advantage of this device is it's ability to get things done with much fewer interactions. Take Outlook mail as an example. It takes a minimum of 3 to 4 screen touches to open a mail. This happens because things are displayed on separate windows. This happens on most mobile applications. But on a device with two screens, we may need much fewer screen interactions because more things can be displayed at a time. And this will feel easy once you start using it.

    So the main advantage of a dual screen device is not about using multiple apps at a time. Rather it is about using one app with much more ease than a conventional smartphone. To be frank, there is nothing that a modern smartphone could not do that this device could do. However, it does some of those stuffs more easily.

    I think Microsoft needs to focus more on this aspect of the device. Here are my few suggestions for Duo 2-

    1. Increase the battery to at least 5000 mAH. 3500 mAH or even 4000 mAH is just old school, especially for a device with double the real estate than a normal device.

    2. Put a peek display on top so that people can at least check notifications without opening the panel. A device that costs 1400 dollars can at least accommodate a third small rectangular screen on the top. I may resemble Microsoft band like display.

    3. Reduce the bezels.

    4. Do not kill the product till it succeeds, even if sales are low initially! You need to have conviction on a product, take feedbacks constructively and keep on improving the product. That's the right way to do things.
    Last edited by Renoktation; 08-15-2020 at 07:06 AM.
    08-13-2020 02:01 PM
  2. TechFreak1's Avatar
    @ Renoktation I disagree. Multitasking is the way to go and I'm talking through experience. For a long time now, I've always worked on the go whether it was on a E61 running Symbian, HTC Touch Pro 2 (WM 6.x), Samsung Omnia B7610, Blackberry phones and so on. I'll give you some examples of multitasking. I will designate left screen as L and Right screen as R for simplicity.
    1. L = Floor plan measuresments, list scrolled with thumb / R = Floor plan drawing software (i'm right handed - left handed users can flip screens)
    2. L = Inventory list R= Corresponding photos.
    3. L = Stock list R= Barcode software via camera for scanning for stock intake
    4. L = Teams R= Minute taking
    5. L = Docusign to sign a tenancy agreement for example R= Handover notes / receipts / other documents or L = Docusign R= Docusign
    6. L = Spreadsheet for on the go price calculations R = Onenote Shopping list
    7. L = Image R= Sketch app / L = Sketch app, R = Image
    8. L = Drawing Video tutorial R= Sketch App
    9. L = Educational Video R = Notetaking
    10. Tent mode - L = Cartoon R = Cartoon
    11. L = Cooking instructions R = Social Media / Video of Cooking instructions.
    12. L = Drawing R = Notetaking


    I can literally go on forever of uses cases - just use your imagination. In terms of Design you need to consider:
    • Larger batteries add weight
    • Cost ratio
    • After a certain point of slimming down the bezels you end up with less durable device and start introducing structural weak points especially where the buttons are placed


    The device can be flipped 360 degrees however instead of putting on an additional display on the device. I'd like to see a return of the Microsoft Band. As that can also provide additional use cases / functionality for Home Automation, Windows Hello. The most beneficial one right now would be mobile payments. But I'd rather they focus on expanding on the payment capabilities of Microsoft.com for brand and ecosystem synergy.

    I agree, they do have to focus on this product until it succeeds as Covid-19 has changed everything in how people work. So a mobile device that allows you to work on the go around the house and is easily pocketable is key right now. This mobile device could then simply docked to provide a continous experience using the cloud and continuum.

    As result, there is reduced exposure risk of Covid-19 on equipment. By this I mean carrying a laptop bag which is made of fabric or any material (most laptop bags are) that can provide an additional exposure service for the virus to be easily transmitted. By carrying the duo in your pocket perhaps in a sealed vacumm bag and docking it reduces that risk. So it also needs to be able to support Continuum albeit wireless too.
    Last edited by TechFreak1; 08-16-2020 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Spelling, Phrasing... Need More Sleep... T_T
    HeyCori, aximtreo and KoukiFC3S like this.
    08-14-2020 01:32 PM
  3. manytoys's Avatar
    I get the idea, well think I do. The ease of opening an app on the one side and it displays the detail (aka email message) on the other screen. The ability to span screens, pair two apps to open side by side. I have an old used Axon M dual screen android phone I got for like $160. Played with it a bit and even got cell service but never used it much. A bit heavy and not a fully baked interface to make use of the dual screens. Just picked it up again and will play with it for some time to reconsider the idea of two separate screen displays.

    I feel the key to what ms is offering is small size and little weight while still fitting in a pocket. Today was putting Task in the ms To Do app, old age, need to write then crap down instead of on pieces of paper all over the place. I could see the advantage of this hybrid ms/android os marriage on this specific device. Is it too much $$$ for what you get...maybe. Others may feel it is not.

    The question to me is where is the OS or app that marries this road map into devices we already have. If there is an app that does this, well, already I am just not aware sadly. I can force two windows on my various sized iPads yet none of the apps would function the way they will on the Duo. I have way more other tech toys, some rarely used, of various screen sizes and would like the ms/android due OS function on them. Well, guess that is why ms did what it did. If you like this new hybrid OS then its name is Surface Duo. At least until other vendors use the ms duo API (?) to incorporate it into new devices.
    Last edited by manytoys; 08-15-2020 at 10:30 AM.
    08-14-2020 09:04 PM
  4. maddogmoffit's Avatar
    @ Renoktation I disagree. Multitasking is the way to go and I'm talking through experience.
    Snipped a long list and some good description on how to use the Duo.

    When I read your post and other posts it gets very clear to me that we all got a very different opinion of what multitasking is. I agree with you that all of your examples are very good examples on where the Duo hopefully will shine and make life on the run easier and they are all good arguments for the Duo. I disagree on the case of any of them being multitasking. You use two apps for accomplish one task and I think that is one of the good use cases for the Duo, the other is that you can use a multiwindowed version of an app, best example outlook with list of emails on one window and the current email on the other.

    So in my opinion it is not multitasking if you look at an youtube video on one screen and is writing an synopsis on that video in onenote on the other screen. This is what the Duo is good for.
    On the other hand, multitasking would be if you are looking at an funny bloopers youtube video on one screen while writing an important email on to your boss on the other. That would normally result in either you fail at the email or miss the video. No tool is good for multitasking because most human is really bad at it. The normal level of multitasking is looking at an soap while doing the ironing and it ends about there.

    Sorry for the nitpicking but I really do not see it as a good strategy to trying to sell in the Duo as an tool for multitasking but it is an good tool for doing anything that needs more than one app.
    aximtreo likes this.
    08-17-2020 08:16 AM
  5. brau0303's Avatar
    It's funny, I watched the recent MS videos where they talk about "Flow", it resonated with me. I use three screens while working (office or remote) Having windows stacked means you may miss something important (that's usually a bad thing).

    The way we interact with our mobile technology has been evolving and screens keep getting bigger. A large or medium screen device that folds and can be carried in a pocket is a natural evolution of the smartphone (to me anyway).

    We do so may things with our mobile devices and having something that can do everything is not a realistic expectation, but something that can sync and act as a bridge between everything could be very empowering.

    My 2-cents for what they are worth.

    Cheers,
    BR
    HeyCori likes this.
    08-19-2020 11:33 AM
  6. TechFreak1's Avatar
    @maddogmoffit Semantics lol.

    It's like people colloqulally refer to something cheap or low cost as "budget", when in fact word the budget has two definitions depending on the context used and nether refer to a specific value for an item.

    1) A finite pool of money that is allocated to a certain task and how that task will be completed using the aforesaid funds.
    2) Plan to outline how much money is required to accomplish a certain task.

    However, if you really want down into the nitty gritty details (I'm going to overly simply things as I don't want to end up typing an novel lol) - certain tasks therefore certain apps will fire up neurons and synapses in different parts of the brain so in a sense it is multi-tasking.

    Some are more adept at it then others either through practise or natural talent or a mixture of the two. As the saying goes practise makes perfect, we all can learn to do things ergo able to re-programme our thinking processes when we learn something new. It's like learning to do something basic, like learning to stir a cup of coffee with your non-dominant hand.

    So due to different synapses being activated in different parts of the brain, some find it difficult to concentrate. However, it's not about the difficulty of focusing but information processing, siloing and association. This process is done by all of us without thinking but we are often taught to focus on thing at a time from an early age thus we carry that habit growing up.

    Case in point, you going to class, you sit down and look at the teacher whilst they give you the pre-amble of the lesson. You have to sit and listen then you are given the task to complete.

    This methodology stretches from early years to university. Ergo why people find it difficult to processes multiple streams of information at once consciously where as infact we are processing simultaneous streams of information subconciously - our five senses.

    They don't work in a linear fashion but parrallel to each other.

    This process is not the same for everyone, thus in reality there is no such thing as a dumb person it's just information is processed in a different manner thus arriving a different set of results - ergo a difference of opinion which results in different actions and so forth (personality traits) - people may think similiarly but it's never the exact same. It's never the exact replica as we aren't clones of each other - another example - all twins look alike, may think alike but they will always have different personalities such differences may be subtle or incredibly noticeable.

    Hence why people learn differently (auditory, kinesthetic etc) and so on.

    Lastly, we often subconciously associate colloqiual meanings to certain elements for the sake of efficiency and this is one of many instances such colloqiual intreptation is actually fairly accurate.

    So going back to the point at hand, using two apps the same time is in effect multi-tasking .

    TLDR: Semantics.
    HeyCori likes this.
    08-19-2020 04:34 PM
  7. Dan12R's Avatar
    There are a few things to keep in mind in regards to this. First, I'm not sure where you're getting that it takes 3-4 clicks to open an email. I do it in 2 and one of those is opening Outlook. So really it's 1. That's an aside but that opening made me wonder where you're going with this.

    As far as apps that take advantage of both screens, they're currently rather limited. It's basically O365 apps, Kindle, and Acrobat (here's a list of what's known so far: https://www.windowscentral.com/list-...optimized-apps). So if that was their selling point, it'd be rather limited. There's no guarantee devs will jump on this train.

    I do think there is a point though of getting one thing done that involves multiple apps and how that can help make the Duo shine. My biggest complaint about smartphones is how I have to constantly switch between apps to get something done, if that task requires multiple apps to complete. Copying content from one thing to another and making sure the clipboard captured the right content. Making sure content I post on multiple social media sites matches. When Panos talks about how the Duo is less taxing on the brain, I believe it because two displays makes juggling two apps a lot easier. I don't have to do that.

    Watch every demo given on this device. It's not multitasking in the traditional sense (doing two things at once). It's addressing single tasks that require multiple apps. Examples have been outlined. Every use case I have for this device, save one, is in the same vein.

    As far as your suggestions for Mk2, here are a few things to keep in mind:
    1. Microsoft has to keep this device thin. It gets folded in half so in order to ensure it's a pocketable device, they can't make it thick. Adding another display is going to make it fat. Potentially the same for a bigger battery. For reference, the Surface Duo opened is 4.8 mm thick. The Galaxy Fold 2, which has an external display is 6.9. If the Duo had that same thickness, folded, you'd be looking at something that's at least 13.8mm instead of the 9.9mm that the Duo is.

    2. As far as the bezels are concerned, this is something where I think we need to get it in our hands before we make suggestions on this. I often hold open books with my thumb in the middle and my index finger on the back of the spine. I suspect that this is how I'll often hold the Duo in my left hand with my right hand free to tap. If that lower bezel was smaller, my thumb will likely make contact with the screens. That would cause taps that I don't intend to make. So those bezels may serve a purpose. All will be revealed in time though.

    3. I agree on sticking with it though. Let the devices get to users, get some feedback, and build on the foundation created with the Mk1 device. This is a new type of device. A lot of people aren't going to be diving in on this thing because they don't understand it. Let people see it in public, learn how others are using it. Then by Mk3, it may be a hit.
    HeyCori likes this.
    09-09-2020 10:19 AM
  8. rodneyej's Avatar
    Marketing Campaign??? They have barely even started marketing it. What marketing campaign?
    09-09-2020 08:33 PM
  9. alodar101's Avatar
    the way I think about it...I want to avoid saying... hold on while I fire up the laptop. not sure I think of this as multi tasking... but it's definitely flow.

    if course, I retired this year.. so my definition of multitasking and flow may be altered some.

    I'm also told that remote desktop from this device is very possible. and did you read the article about duo being a potential workstation... lots of ideas. let's see how it fleshes out
    09-09-2020 10:05 PM
  10. Renoktation's Avatar
    First, I'm not sure where you're getting that it takes 3-4 clicks to open an email. I do it in 2 and one of those is opening Outlook. So really it's 1.
    Let's consider Outlook app on a smartphone.
    1. Since multiple accounts are added, we have to press hamburger button and then select the desired account.
    2. The screen now displays the list of mails. We touch any particular email to open it and it takes us to a different screen.
    3. We read the email and then press back button to return to the mail list.
    4. We will have to press the hamburger button again to choose another account.

    We have to interact with the touch screen at least 5 times.

    On a dual display, this is how things will work.
    1. We select account. (no need to press hamburger as it is already displayed on left screen)
    2. We select mail to read. (no need to press back button)

    The count now is 2!

    While there are other possible use case scenario like opening an attachment in another app like excel side by side or even using two different but related apps side by side, but I think those use cases are very rare and holds true for limited fraction of population

    1.jpg

    2.jpg
    09-10-2020 07:49 AM
  11. jnjroach's Avatar
    Let's consider Outlook app on a smartphone.
    1. Since multiple accounts are added, we have to press hamburger button and then select the desired account.
    2. The screen now displays the list of mails. We touch any particular email to open it and it takes us to a different screen.
    3. We read the email and then press back button to return to the mail list.
    4. We will have to press the hamburger button again to choose another account.

    We have to interact with the touch screen at least 5 times.

    On a dual display, this is how things will work.
    1. We select account. (no need to press hamburger as it is already displayed on left screen)
    2. We select mail to read. (no need to press back button)

    The count now is 2!

    While there are other possible use case scenario like opening an attachment in another app like excel side by side or even using two different but related apps side by side, but I think those use cases are very rare and holds true for limited fraction of population
    Outlook for Android shows a consolidated view of all accounts by default - use it all the time...
    Last edited by jnjroach; 09-10-2020 at 11:50 AM. Reason: clean up
    09-10-2020 11:48 AM
  12. Dan12R's Avatar
    Same. I open Outlook on my Android phone and it immediately shows all of my email accounts in one feed (same as I had on Windows 10 Mobile). So my workflow is:
    1. Open Outlook and see all the emails for all of my accounts
    2. Click on email I want to open

    It's pretty simple.
    Last edited by Dan12R; 09-10-2020 at 06:15 PM. Reason: clean up
    09-10-2020 06:12 PM
  13. Renoktation's Avatar
    Same. I open Outlook on my Android phone and it immediately shows all of my email accounts in one feed (same as I had on Windows 10 Mobile). So my workflow is:
    1. Open Outlook and see all the emails for all of my accounts
    2. Click on email I want to open

    It's pretty simple.
    If you open an email, you land into a different page and lose context of list of mails. Then your will have to press back button if you want to open another email!
    Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  
    Last edited by Renoktation; 09-15-2020 at 01:48 PM.
    09-15-2020 01:30 PM

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