08-06-2018 12:15 PM
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  1. Drael646464's Avatar
    Exactly right. I love the form factor of the Surface Go, it's exactly what I want. But I can't use it because it lacks all of the business apps I need to do my job. With an iPad I can quickly and easily get actual work done when I'm in the field. I rarely bring my Windows 10 PC with me anymore.
    Which apps are you talking about that windows doesn't have?
    07-21-2018 12:11 AM
  2. Dusteater's Avatar
    Which apps are you talking about that windows doesn't have?
    I spend a huge amount of time in SalesForce, and using a web browser on Windows 10 isn't exactly a touch friendly interface. Same goes for Concur.
    07-21-2018 12:16 AM
  3. Drael646464's Avatar
    I spend a huge amount of time in SalesForce, and using a web browser on Windows 10 isn't exactly a touch friendly interface. Same goes for Concur.
    Ah right, so it's the UI. They could save themselves a lot of development costs and run stuff like that via a PWA web app now (and make it touch friendly). Which would be nicer for users too. Hopefully that's the way development goes in the future for stuff that isn't input output heavy, or processor intensive.
    07-21-2018 06:31 AM
  4. TgeekB's Avatar
    I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-21-2018 07:52 AM
  5. ochhanz's Avatar
    Personally I like windows 10 for tablets and therefore would like to see ipad like tablets for w10 (10 inch 4:3/3:2). Sure there are some little problems like sometimes needing to touch a few times before the screen keyboard shows up and some gestures are missing (fixable with gesturesign), but I find the OS clearer than iOS, I like the w10 start menu more, more options for (full) browsers and access to Steam&GOG (whether I am on my laptop, desk or tablet I can access the same library instead of having to buy separate titles for different type devices).
    07-21-2018 09:26 AM
  6. bh7171's Avatar
    ipads are far and away the most popular tablet. They also considerably more popular in most of the world than chromebooks in education (although windows actually leads in the majority of places, sensibly as windows dominates everywhere in industry and higher education).

    They have shrunk a little in the last few years, but not as much as android devices have. Hybrids have been rapidly growing and are now not just the fastest growing form of tablet, but also the fastest growing segment of laptop.

    But, to close that gap will take a lot of time. And these are not entirely overlapping markets - windows hybrids and tablets are for people who require more capable software, whereas as ios is sold on it's simplicity. the ipad pro, is actually one of apples worst performing products. It remains to be seen, whether they will even bother releasing another.

    Should PWA take off, perhaps over time, windows could compete for the same market. And perhaps over time, hybrids will outnumber regular tablets. But we are talking about time scales much bigger than the surface go's market time.

    What the surface go does IMO, is bridge very slightly more into that pure tablet domain - useable as a tablet, pen friendly, portable. It's pulling the market or leading it, away from it's obsession with hybrid devices too large to practically use, as tablets, and edging slowly towards the mobile simplicity end. But to break free of the keyboard, in terms of real market adoption, MSFT is going to need some UI optimisation, and PWAs to succeed.

    I mean I use a keyboardless windows tablet, but _for most people_ it's not quite an ipad, in terms of ease of use. So currently, that is not surface go's market - it seems quite squarely pitched as a tablet-like device, for students, that has the greater capability of windows software (ie education), and probably also for brief using road warriors like real estate etc.

    So I wouldn't call it a overlap of market yet. More like a slightly more increased similarity. Which makes sense given that, as I have said, the ipad is more threat to windows dominance in education globally than anything else.
    I don't know where you reside but empirically Google has taken Apple and Microsoft to the shed in the education market. Google has @ 60 percent. I own and use a Windows 10 Acer Swift 3 laptop with an icore 5. 8GB and 256GB SSD. For the past two weeks I have used an Acer 14 Chromebook to see what my daughter meant when she noted her school was using Chromebooks and Google education software. Honestly I can do any and all things needed on the Chromebook and it is less than half of what I spent on my Swift 3. With the Google Play store and apps now available on Chromebooks I suspect their usage will only increase.
    darrell reimer likes this.
    07-21-2018 06:56 PM
  7. DeepHeet's Avatar
    Lots of great points in the discussion. Personally I don't think asking if Surface Go can compete with iPad is the right question, rather what is the target market. The Windows market has always been about choice which means no single device will dominate the market in the way iPads do.

    As many have pointed out their are cheaper, and possibly better solutions for education.

    If you want great battery life, instant on and use mostly browser and Windows Store apps then Windows on ARM might be a better choice.

    For me Surface Go will find its niche in users who need a PC, but are extremely mobile and want a smaller lightweight device with reasonable battery life e.g. Sales reps, field force, students (not schools). Because it is a PC it fits well into the Enterprise from a management perspective.

    Yes some consumers who want to upgrade an older laptop or Surface Pro and don't need a powerful device might choose Surface Go. And there is the dilemma. Surface Go probably won't take huge market share from Google and Apple, but will compete with other players in the PC market. It might however encourage other PC makers to up their game.
    LibbyLA and libra89 like this.
    07-22-2018 01:43 AM
  8. Dusteater's Avatar
    Lots of great points in the discussion. Personally I don't think asking if Surface Go can compete with iPad is the right question, rather what is the target market. The Windows market has always been about choice which means no single device will dominate the market in the way iPads do.

    As many have pointed out their are cheaper, and possibly better solutions for education.

    If you want great battery life, instant on and use mostly browser and Windows Store apps then Windows on ARM might be a better choice.

    For me Surface Go will find its niche in users who need a PC, but are extremely mobile and want a smaller lightweight device with reasonable battery life e.g. Sales reps, field force, students (not schools). Because it is a PC it fits well into the Enterprise from a management perspective.

    Yes some consumers who want to upgrade an older laptop or Surface Pro and don't need a powerful device might choose Surface Go. And there is the dilemma. Surface Go probably won't take huge market share from Google and Apple, but will compete with other players in the PC market. It might however encourage other PC makers to up their game.
    I am a Sales Engineer and spend all my time in the field. This can't replace my iPad because the business apps I use aren't in the Microsoft Store. Microsoft can't even get the critical business apps in their store, which is really bad.
    07-22-2018 08:59 AM
  9. Wevenhuis's Avatar
    I think it can compete. Based on experience at work where most collegues use an iPad and a few colleugus, inculding me use a surface pro and book device in a mobile workspace at work.

    both have issues with loss of wifi connectivitiy despite best efforts by technical service to maintain them. I'm noticing a slightly better reception over wifi with the surface device than the ipads

    The ipads don't support apple pencil. The surface does. Very convenient to use on the go to take quick notes with OneNote

    The iPad support more apps for offline use. I can find many equivalent software solutions via the web counterparts, but it does require a connection, so the exprience is slower to use them than with an iPad.Unfortunately many webservices are not uwp or uwp to date, which makes the windows ecosystem relatively weak in day to day use.

    The surface pro keyboard work instantly on connection. On the iPad there is always a first slight connection lag with the bluetooth keyboard when you want to type instantly.


    The apps on the iPad are slightly better designed for tablet use. But the placing of the buttons and their size are smaller than the apps in windows. But I think the UI on the iPad is better designed in terms of use of swipe gestures and apps in rotations. But I prefer the full screen tablet mode design with live tiles. Much easier to access and press and possibilities to snap files to the startscreen. Hube missed opportunities on the surface though are incomplete tablet mode experiences, such as auto rotate of snapped apps in tablet mode between landsacpe and portrait orientation, easier snapping of apps between left and right fielde with touch drag and drop gestures. The gestures now have become more complicated with the added layer of the app switcher and only then swiping the app, which is are more steps than the simplicitiy of windows 8. And I'm missing more surface pen refinements as being able to use the pen click to open a template note page in OneNote. To date only a default blank page can be programmed via settings, which is a valuable waste of functionality of the surface accessory device.

    Safari seems snappier and quicker to render pages than Edge on the same wifi connection. Chorme is faster on windows 10. There is something wrong with the state of Edge on windows devices.

    All in all if microsoft can adress to maintain a snappy performance of tablet mode and Edge on the Pentium chip, invest serious developer time into optimizing the tablet expreience for windows on tablet pc devices and improve the UWP/PWA apps, I think it could be a great contender for the iPad.

    While they're at it. If microsoft can find it in their business hard to include the type cover as part of the same price package, and preferably the surface pen too, it would be a steal and be less of a difficult choice to go for the Surface go. 399 with a market in small business and education, I think it's too expensive to shell another 200 dollars for a keyboard and pen. I have never used a surface (pro) device without a type cover.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-22-2018 11:01 AM
  10. TgeekB's Avatar
    What would make people switch? Why leave a platform you are comfortable with for something new?
    Just honest questions I think need to be answered in order for a true perception.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-22-2018 11:07 AM
  11. Chris Stevens1's Avatar
    This is a Surface device. As such, it is meant to be premium, and aspirational to OEMs. As a part of the surface line, it is also subject to the "Surface Surcharge", an artificial price addition that allows OEMs to manufacture similar devices, of similar quality, and profitably sell them at a lower price.

    If OEMs like Dell and HP choose to "clone" the Surface Go, they could probably achieve the prices you are looking for. (Please note the Dell, HP, ACER, ASUS, etc. are all capable of making high quality devices. They also make less expensive lesser quality devices. Do not assume that a Surface clone will be low quality device.)
    07-22-2018 04:53 PM
  12. Timbre70's Avatar
    What's so premium about the Go? It's akin to budget airline belonging to a premium carrier.
    07-23-2018 07:26 AM
  13. Drael646464's Avatar
    I don't know where you reside but empirically Google has taken Apple and Microsoft to the shed in the education market. Google has @ 60 percent. I own and use a Windows 10 Acer Swift 3 laptop with an icore 5. 8GB and 256GB SSD. For the past two weeks I have used an Acer 14 Chromebook to see what my daughter meant when she noted her school was using Chromebooks and Google education software. Honestly I can do any and all things needed on the Chromebook and it is less than half of what I spent on my Swift 3. With the Google Play store and apps now available on Chromebooks I suspect their usage will only increase.
    I live outside the US. That should pretty much answer your question, as that is literally the only place in the world where chromebooks have any significant market presence in education. Something I beleive those students will regret when they find higher education and industry require Windows or at leas OSX.


    Look at any global market stats, and find you are wrong. Chromebook is a US only phenomena. Outside the US, there are more ipads than chromebooks, and overall windows is (sensibly given what I just said above), dominant. I think that is part of the motivation for MSFT focus on education. It's that they want to keep the majority of the developed by replicating some of the advantages of chromeOS and ipad, not that they want to take it back.

    Copying feature sets, like via windows on arm for example, or by enhancing tablet useability are defensive, not offensive business moves. This is like what Instagram did with snapchat. It's to hold onto user base.

    And you can tell google is nervous about it, and apple too. Their ipad pro is a market flop compared especially to PC hybrids (it's their lowest selling model by many factors - and a product they declared only some years ago was as silly as a refrigerating toaster). Google is aiming for MSFT certification on their pixel - which means they are aiming for the same hardware OEMs will be making for windows on arm - that's definately a defensive move. Especially considering google has refused to even put apps in the windows store, and now they are considering riding in the same hardware bus.

    I can't really speak to the US situation, as I don't live there. But I do feel sorry for people being raised in ecosystems that are largely irrelevant the moment they leave high school, and I hope they have some exposure to OSes, that industry and higher education actually use, before they are plopped in front of a mac, or a PC, floundering (or just not getting the job).

    It astounds me that educators would be so short sighted to see devices as only "tools that get things done", and not "systems to learn, as discrete skills because they are useful in the world". That's like saying ancient Sanskrit is useful because you can use it to say hello - well, yes, but nobody speaks Sanskrit, so good luck with that.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 07-23-2018 at 01:02 PM.
    07-23-2018 12:51 PM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    I live outside the US. That should pretty much answer your question, as that is literally the only place in the world where chromebooks have any significant market presence in education. Something I beleive those students will regret when they find higher education and industry require Windows or at leas OSX.


    Look at any global market stats, and find you are wrong. Chromebook is a US only phenomena. Outside the US, there are more ipads than chromebooks, and overall windows is (sensibly given what I just said above), dominant. I think that is part of the motivation for MSFT focus on education. It's that they want to keep the majority of the developed by replicating some of the advantages of chromeOS and ipad, not that they want to take it back.

    Copying feature sets, like via windows on arm for example, or by enhancing tablet useability are defensive, not offensive business moves. This is like what Instagram did with snapchat. It's to hold onto user base.

    And you can tell google is nervous about it, and apple too. Their ipad pro is a market flop compared especially to PC hybrids (it's their lowest selling model by many factors - and a product they declared only some years ago was as silly as a refrigerating toaster). Google is aiming for MSFT certification on their pixel - which means they are aiming for the same hardware OEMs will be making for windows on arm - that's definately a defensive move. Especially considering google has refused to even put apps in the windows store, and now they are considering riding in the same hardware bus.

    I can't really speak to the US situation, as I don't live there. But I do feel sorry for people being raised in ecosystems that are largely irrelevant the moment they leave high school, and I hope they have some exposure to OSes, that industry and higher education actually use, before they are plopped in front of a mac, or a PC, floundering (or just not getting the job).

    It astounds me that educators would be so short sighted to see devices as only "tools that get things done", and not "systems to learn, as discrete skills because they are useful in the world". That's like saying ancient Sanskrit is useful because you can use it to say hello - well, yes, but nobody speaks Sanskrit, so good luck with that.
    I think you have to look at it from a different perspective.
    Chromebooks have brought technology to the classroom and especially to low income areas. That’s the advantage Google has. They have created, with both Chromebooks and mobile devices, technology that almost anyone can afford. Math and science skills. Computer skills. This will create innovation that could never be done before. These kids know Google and are comfortable with it. They will be able learn Windows or whatever some day if it’s required for a job because they will have developed the skills in the classroom. Google and Apple aren’t scared because they are at the forefront of new technology.
    darrell reimer likes this.
    07-23-2018 04:45 PM
  15. Drael646464's Avatar
    I think you have to look at it from a different perspective.
    Chromebooks have brought technology to the classroom and especially to low income areas. That’s the advantage Google has. They have created, with both Chromebooks and mobile devices, technology that almost anyone can afford. Math and science skills. Computer skills. This will create innovation that could never be done before. These kids know Google and are comfortable with it. They will be able learn Windows or whatever some day if it’s required for a job because they will have developed the skills in the classroom. Google and Apple aren’t scared because they are at the forefront of new technology.
    If you've ever seen mac user use a PC for the first time, or a PC user use a mac for the first time, you'd know that it's almost like learning from scratch. What your equipped with is a basic knowledge of how computer OSes work, but you still have no idea how to do any particular task. Worse, you can do considerably less on a chromebook in terms of complicated tasks.

    A lot of jobs require upfront PC skills, and most university courses just assume you know - learning architecture or physics at the same time as how to use the computer is going to be too high of a hurdle for most.


    If my kid was using chrome at school, I would ensure their home computer was a PC (or a mac if they intended on getting into film or media). You can get a secondhand desktop for like 50 bucks, pick up a TV at a pawn shop for 20, boom.

    As far as price, with the advent of some of the cheaper intel chips, and rise of the Chinese market, bottom tier windows tablets are now about as cheap as chromebooks - you can get them for under 200 USD, and you can also get hybrids around that price, some of them good value (Chuwi hi10 for example) You can get pretty great ones for around 300 USD (like the Chuwi lapbook air).

    The price difference currently between a chromebook and a windows laptop is small at best, or even non-existent if you just consider windows tablets (which can be had for under 100 USD). IDK exactly how chromebooks are priced, because no one uses them in my country, but I feel like the price difference if it exists, is vastly overstated, and the result of shopping mainstream western brands in big box stores, rather than the actual available prices one might get by taking as small a step as looking on amazon.

    In that, I feel like the rise of chrome in the US, is more of a cultural trend, than something based on any real advantages (apart perhaps from low administration for the school, and instant on, which hopefully down the track, you'll be able to get cheaply via windows on arm)

    In regards to competition - hybrids are the fastest growing segment of both tablets and laptops - and both android OEMs, and apple tried to replicate that by creating hybrids, all of which were failures. Tablets in general are actually a shrinking market - this is why apple also released the cheaper version of the ipad. If apple perceived no threat they wouldn't have moved from "hybrids are the silliest thing ever, hahaha", to oh **** we need to make a hybrid, and oh crap no one is buying it. Apple has it's little niche with the MacBook, but right now it's profits come almost entirely from the iPhone - with a tiny portion from the new, cheaper ipad (a move they never would have made if ipads were still selling like they were 3-4 years ago). Apples relative comfort comes from mobile - and worse, for apple at least, post-saturation, the smartphone market is massively slowing. Once developing markets like india go, apple will need a new plan on how to make similar money.

    Same goes for google - google wouldn't be adding Linux emulation to chrome, and certifying their pixel as a windows machine, if they didn't perceive a direct future threat from windows on arm. At a minimum, they clearly perceive a similar market for chrome and windows - windows being the vastly more dominant desktop OS in general, both in the US and globally. To say that google aren't threatened in the desktop and laptop space is just disingenuous - google are a dominant mobile player. MSFT is the top dog of PCs. In that market, it's google that's playing the up and coming underdog. Threatened wouldn't even be sufficient to describe the position of a challenger. From googles POV, their smartphone market is safer - the shift in the smartphone market to cheaper devices, and price point competition, doesn't effect them as they are not OEMs. Their main source of profit is search, and whilst bing and others have made real inroads, that's still not really under threat. But they have struggled to monetize much else in a significant way, and the goal of enterprise is always growth, not staying where you are. That growth is proving hard, just as msfts move into more mobile devices is a challenge, it's quite difficult to get chrome up to scratch, and playing with the big boys - and lots of ventures of google have proven just as difficult in terms of creating new profit streams. ChromeOS is a natural move - some 40 percent of search engine searches are desktop, and without dominating that, they will never be able to secure their position firmly, and permenantly as search leader.

    Now should apple ever drop google search and develop their own search (which I personally think they are), that would have quite a significant impact on their current bottom line. Both google and apple have a single product for their majority of income, and that makes their market position a whole lot less certain than people might otherwise assume. Yes, they have mindshare. But should they lose dominance over time to their main product, they will still need to convert that into a new profit stream.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 07-23-2018 at 10:56 PM.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-23-2018 10:32 PM
  16. TgeekB's Avatar
    Who said they’re not learning basic PC skills or that it’s difficult? We’re not talking about people getting into IT, we’re talking about people getting into math, science, etc. They have night courses in the US where you can learn Excel or Word. Extremely simple if necessary.
    It’s hard to compare products when we’re talking about different markets. I’ve never heard of Chuwi and have never seen anyone who owns one in the US. I do agree that there is a push to lower priced smartphones and tablets, etc. Of course the market will evolve over time but I think the premise of this thread was can the Surface Go compete with the entry level iPad. Time will tell but I’m not betting money on it.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-24-2018 05:12 PM
  17. shaddack's Avatar
    If you want great battery life, instant on and use mostly browser and Windows Store apps then Windows on ARM might be a better choice.

    For me Surface Go will find its niche in users who need a PC, but are extremely mobile and want a smaller lightweight device with reasonable battery life e.g. Sales reps, field force, students (not schools). Because it is a PC it fits well into the Enterprise from a management perspective.
    I'm really interested in the Surface Go as a secondary device to be used when I go to conferences or travel in general. With a device like this I can stay in the Microsoft Ecosystem with OneDrive and have access to all my files. I also think of it as a replacement for my old Sony Xperia Z tablet.

    This is also true for the ARM devices. I really like them, the HP and Lenovo ones that are out there now. Great battery life and always on. Also they have LTE out of the box which I want.

    I consider their 12.5" form factor to be a bit big for tablet use (for my taste) and I also think that Snapdragon 850 would serve them better (maybe) in terms of performance.

    I'm really looking forward to the reviews for the Surface Go I think it will suit me perfectly if it holds up performance wise.
    LibbyLA likes this.
    07-27-2018 06:18 AM
  18. TgeekB's Avatar
    I'm really interested in the Surface Go as a secondary device to be used when I go to conferences or travel in general. With a device like this I can stay in the Microsoft Ecosystem with OneDrive and have access to all my files. I also think of it as a replacement for my old Sony Xperia Z tablet.

    This is also true for the ARM devices. I really like them, the HP and Lenovo ones that are out there now. Great battery life and always on. Also they have LTE out of the box which I want.

    I consider their 12.5" form factor to be a bit big for tablet use (for my taste) and I also think that Snapdragon 850 would serve them better (maybe) in terms of performance.

    I'm really looking forward to the reviews for the Surface Go I think it will suit me perfectly if it holds up performance wise.
    I can see this. Going to a conference. Don’t need a lot of power, etc.
    Performance is yet to be seen. I’ll be interested in that also.
    LibbyLA, libra89 and shaddack like this.
    07-27-2018 03:44 PM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    I wonder if the ipad can compete with itself btw. Ipad sales have been down year on year for a few years now. The budget model ipad was an attempt to increase lagging sales. I think the way people mostly use ipads lends to them not really wanting to upgrade. It works, so meh. They replace it, if it breaks.

    That's where I think, in the long run, MSFT can offer something else - more software power, but it has to refine the UI, the core OS UI in particular, as well as lock down that system integrated pen use. If it can become easier to use, close that gap, there's a reason to want a windows tablet instead.

    For the average ipad use, the go isn't it. Not unless they want a full browser, media player, office apps, desktop games, drawing and music composition software. But I can see this having more general appeal than the bigger surfaces - it's cheap, it runs the OS that professionals and academics use - full desktop OS, it has that pen perfection, but it's also portable. So people wanting a sketchpad, notepad, portable note-taking, or to run higher power software on the go (like perhaps a musician playing live gigs), it makes a bit more sense than the bigger devices - in the sense, that yes, as a professional, or power user, you might want a more laptop experience, but if you want those features as a bonus on something that's super easy to carry, as opposed to as a sacrifice for size, then it's there.


    It's weird - at one stage all you could get were too small 8 inchers. But 9-10 inches is a great size for windows, and was never really pushed by OEMs. Especially with WoA rising up, and PWA, it's a pretty good time to give the market a push.

    An ipad killer? No. But at the same time, hybrids are far more exciting in the tablet space to consumers, than an ipad, or especially an android tablet, even if the useability bridge is still one to cross.
    07-28-2018 01:07 PM
  20. TgeekB's Avatar
    I wonder if the ipad can compete with itself btw.

    For the average ipad use, the go isn't it. Not unless they want a full browser, media player, office apps, desktop games, drawing and music composition software. But I can see this having more general appeal than the bigger surfaces - it's cheap, it runs the OS that professionals and academics use - full desktop OS, it has that pen perfection, but it's also portable. So people wanting a sketchpad, notepad, portable note-taking, or to run higher power software on the go (like perhaps a musician playing live gigs), it makes a bit more sense than the bigger devices - in the sense, that yes, as a professional, or power user, you might want a more laptop experience, but if you want those features as a bonus on something that's super easy to carry, as opposed to as a sacrifice for size, then it's there.

    An ipad killer? No. But at the same time, hybrids are far more exciting in the tablet space to consumers, than an ipad, or especially an android tablet, even if the useability bridge is still one to cross.
    The iPad is kind of a niche product, and so will be the Go though quite different. iPads are great for the touch experience which lends itself to a lot of different uses. It’s perfect for me. I’m not trying to write a paper or do extensive Excel data entry. I’m surfing, exploring, creating, purchasing, controlling, etc.

    As far as the Go, I’m not sure who will be drawn to it. Portable? Yes. Powerful? No. It still could have uses though but I’m not sure where or if it would beat an iPad in those instances. It would be interesting to hear from people who purchase one for real life uses.

    Are hybrids far more exciting to consumers than an iPad? We’ll see in the next year or so.
    libra89 likes this.
    07-28-2018 02:57 PM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    The iPad is kind of a niche product, and so will be the Go though quite different. iPads are great for the touch experience which lends itself to a lot of different uses. It’s perfect for me. I’m not trying to write a paper or do extensive Excel data entry. I’m surfing, exploring, creating, purchasing, controlling, etc.

    As far as the Go, I’m not sure who will be drawn to it. Portable? Yes. Powerful? No. It still could have uses though but I’m not sure where or if it would beat an iPad in those instances. It would be interesting to hear from people who purchase one for real life uses.

    Are hybrids far more exciting to consumers than an iPad? We’ll see in the next year or so.
    A use case might be using adobe illustrator to sketch on the go. Or writing a basic melody in fruity loops on the go. Or taking notes with a pen (being that windows has deeper pen intergration).

    Admitedly the Pentium chip they have used isn't the most powerful - but it is more powerful than an atom, and even atoms were capable of quite a bit of things an ipad could never do - like playing less demanding full desktop games. And that particular Pentium chip has a lower thermal draw than the alternatives, which for the size, really makes sense, otherwise you have horrible battery life.


    Are hybrids exciting to users? Well, they are the fastest growing segment of tablets, of laptops - and laptops are the fastest growing PC market. Whereas the ipad has been shrinking in market share for approximated five years, which is why apple released a budget version. They certainly are useful, and a polished tablet experience - ideal in many use cases, but I think it's fair to say that the shine/buzz has worn off.

    Whereas for PCs, I don't think we can really even say things have properly started - no doubt things like PWA, windows on arm, more polish in the UI via an adaptable shell - ie future developments, will give windows on smaller tablets more polish and potential - right now windows still straddles a rift, much as chromeOS does - not quite reaching from it's original place, over to it's new broader platform agnostic intention. iOS as a mobile OS has never had to contend with something more ambitious as a development and market goal, as google and Microsoft have to, with their device spanning hybrid intentions.

    And in that, I don't think we'll see in the next year where those plans for Microsoft and windows, or google and chromeOS go at all. I think we'll be talking about more like the span of five years or more, to see how it all unfolds versus the current, well established mobile OS market.

    There's a certain fad like energy to technology adoption, and useage. At one point apple users were pioneers, and things like ios, utterly basic and poorly implemented. At one point, the Walkman was exciting, and hip, and everyone had to have one. I know, many will say "it only matters to me, what we have now", and sure, that's true...now. In five years or ten, it will matter to you then. No one can no, but it is relevant and important whether that Walkman we have is going to be the mainstay it is now, in five years time - like for example if we are investing heavily in cassette tapes. Again, no one can know, but much like the fast rotation of our planet, often things only seem stable because of our perception. In fact, they are continually changing beyond it's reach.
    07-29-2018 06:53 PM
  22. TgeekB's Avatar
    A use case might be using adobe illustrator to sketch on the go. Or writing a basic melody in fruity loops on the go. Or taking notes with a pen (being that windows has deeper pen intergration).

    Admitedly the Pentium chip they have used isn't the most powerful - but it is more powerful than an atom, and even atoms were capable of quite a bit of things an ipad could never do - like playing less demanding full desktop games. And that particular Pentium chip has a lower thermal draw than the alternatives, which for the size, really makes sense, otherwise you have horrible battery life.


    Are hybrids exciting to users? Well, they are the fastest growing segment of tablets, of laptops - and laptops are the fastest growing PC market. Whereas the ipad has been shrinking in market share for approximated five years, which is why apple released a budget version. They certainly are useful, and a polished tablet experience - ideal in many use cases, but I think it's fair to say that the shine/buzz has worn off.

    Whereas for PCs, I don't think we can really even say things have properly started - no doubt things like PWA, windows on arm, more polish in the UI via an adaptable shell - ie future developments, will give windows on smaller tablets more polish and potential - right now windows still straddles a rift, much as chromeOS does - not quite reaching from it's original place, over to it's new broader platform agnostic intention. iOS as a mobile OS has never had to contend with something more ambitious as a development and market goal, as google and Microsoft have to, with their device spanning hybrid intentions.


    And in that, I don't think we'll see in the next year where those plans for Microsoft and windows, or google and chromeOS go at all. I think we'll be talking about more like the span of five years or more, to see how it all unfolds versus the current, well established mobile OS market.
    Of course hybrids are a fast growing segment because they are just starting. I’m not saying they won’t become more widely used, we just don’t know yet.
    At least you’re finally coming around to agree that this supposed new wave won’t be here for another 5-10 years. I remember you trying to convince me Andromeda would be out the end of 2017, then the beginning of 2018. All this takes time both to develop and for people to accept. People aren’t going to throw away their iPads for some new hybrid from MS anytime soon, at least in numbers that matter.
    07-29-2018 07:05 PM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    Of course hybrids are a fast growing segment because they are just starting. I’m not saying they won’t become more widely used, we just don’t know yet.
    At least you’re finally coming around to agree that this supposed new wave won’t be here for another 5-10 years. I remember you trying to convince me Andromeda would be out the end of 2017, then the beginning of 2018. All this takes time both to develop and for people to accept. People aren’t going to throw away their iPads for some new hybrid from MS anytime soon, at least in numbers that matter.
    Well, back then I was trying to convince people that andromeda even existed - back then windows central didn't accept this as fact, everyone thought it was a rumour (but i'd seen some compelling evidence in the form of windows code in released builds, found by a user on twitter that confirmed everything about the adaptive dual screen design and the use of windows core).

    We now accept this as confirmed by insiders, but back then it was "what have you been smoking mate".

    As it turns out early 2019 isn't so far away from 2017.


    But yes, you are most certainly right that this sort of change takes time. We didn't move from dial up modems to the smartphone, and we won't move from discreet mobile and desktop OSes to crossplatform hybrids overnight either. Not just for market adoption reasons, but because the development of such technology is even more complex and incremental than that of phones.

    I've always known, and said the project of taking all those steps towards a hybrid, crossplatform os, the "pathway" as they say, is a long one. It was only contemplating the complexity of that pathway, and the history of computing that I began to understand that it was unpredicted in complexity, in development, and as a move for the market.

    It's still unclear that MSFT has enough of a lead over google, who appear to be of identical mind, that they are counted out. Even apple who refuse to play the hybrid game are best positioned for it with ios and osx, should they change their mind, although I can't help feel in their case, they might genuinely be losing a position in that particular race.
    07-29-2018 09:24 PM
  24. TgeekB's Avatar
    Well, back then I was trying to convince people that andromeda even existed - back then windows central didn't accept this as fact, everyone thought it was a rumour (but i'd seen some compelling evidence in the form of windows code in released builds, found by a user on twitter that confirmed everything about the adaptive dual screen design and the use of windows core).

    We now accept this as confirmed by insiders, but back then it was "what have you been smoking mate".

    As it turns out early 2019 isn't so far away from 2017.


    But yes, you are most certainly right that this sort of change takes time. We didn't move from dial up modems to the smartphone, and we won't move from discreet mobile and desktop OSes to crossplatform hybrids overnight either. Not just for market adoption reasons, but because the development of such technology is even more complex and incremental than that of phones.

    I've always known, and said the project of taking all those steps towards a hybrid, crossplatform os, the "pathway" as they say, is a long one. It was only contemplating the complexity of that pathway, and the history of computing that I began to understand that it was unpredicted in complexity, in development, and as a move for the market.

    It's still unclear that MSFT has enough of a lead over google, who appear to be of identical mind, that they are counted out. Even apple who refuse to play the hybrid game are best positioned for it with ios and osx, should they change their mind, although I can't help feel in their case, they might genuinely be losing a position in that particular race.
    It’s fun to talk about but I don’t get too serious about it. Everything is fluid and looks one way today and a different way tomorrow. The only thing we do know it that technology will develop and change. Enjoy the ride!
    07-30-2018 04:31 PM
  25. Daniel Stevenson Sutton's Avatar
    We have exact opposite view here. I guess I spend. All my time between PBI, SQL server and Excel so my ipad is a little pointless to me if I know I may have to jump on a job while out and about, while my Surface Pro is rarely out of reach.
    08-06-2018 12:08 PM
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