Can Surface Go catch up to the entry level iPad?

[BillGriffin724]

The app-gap means that it can't possibly attain any level of mainstream success as a tablet. Until that is addressed, it is just a small screen laptop with a thin keyboard.

 

[darrell reimer]

For the past few months I have been researching and comparing devices for our middle school age child. Of course the Surface Go more recently made me consider it alongside the Surface Pro, iPad configurations (both with adding keyboard and stylus/apple pen). The Surface Go, price wise, does compare with an iPad (standard- not Pro) with 128GB, keyboard and pencil. The problem is cost for the target market of education. Both the iPad and Surface Go with essentially base configurations are going to start @ 650 plus tax. The 399/400 for the Go is a tease because nobody is going to purchase, for educational purposes, it without keyboard and pen. After some additional thought and comments on AC I revisited Chromebooks and discovered several good options but ultimately the Lenovo 500e 2in1 with a housed stylus. This can be used as a tablet, tent or laptop, has an excellent keyboard, a stylus that does not need to be charged and best of all, for my students needs, durability and HALF the cost of the iPad or Surface Go. I don't think Microsoft or Apple are really going to disrupt Google 's lead in the educational market unless they can develop 2 in 1 options at similarly affordable and secure options.

Excellent points! I totally agree with you about the Chromebook being the way to go. Here in Canada, a 'ruggadized' Chromebook with rubber edges and back costs almost 1/3 the price of the Go and iPad (with keyboard). The Go is way too expensive, almost the same price as our school iPads and keyboards, and the Go lacks the educational app ecosystem. There's no way our IT Admin would buy a Go....it's a 'no-Go' in my opinion.

 

[Dusteater]

The app-gap means that it can't possibly attain any level of mainstream success as a tablet. Until that is addressed, it is just a small screen laptop with a thin keyboard.

Exactly right. I love the form factor of the Surface Go, it's exactly what I want. But I can't use it because it lacks all of the business apps I need to do my job. With an iPad I can quickly and easily get actual work done when I'm in the field. I rarely bring my Windows 10 PC with me anymore.

 

[El_Burro]

Re: Depends

Windows 8.1 was, by far, a better Windows for tablet OS. I find W10 a bit of a pain to use as a tablet only OS.

Really? I think I would have to disagree with you on this point. How do you think it was better?

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Depends

ipads are far and away the most popular tablet. They also considerably more popular in most of the world than chromebooks in education (although windows actually leads in the majority of places, sensibly as windows dominates everywhere in industry and higher education).

They have shrunk a little in the last few years, but not as much as android devices have. Hybrids have been rapidly growing and are now not just the fastest growing form of tablet, but also the fastest growing segment of laptop.

But, to close that gap will take a lot of time. And these are not entirely overlapping markets - windows hybrids and tablets are for people who require more capable software, whereas as ios is sold on it's simplicity. the ipad pro, is actually one of apples worst performing products. It remains to be seen, whether they will even bother releasing another.

Should PWA take off, perhaps over time, windows could compete for the same market. And perhaps over time, hybrids will outnumber regular tablets. But we are talking about time scales much bigger than the surface go's market time.

What the surface go does IMO, is bridge very slightly more into that pure tablet domain - useable as a tablet, pen friendly, portable. It's pulling the market or leading it, away from it's obsession with hybrid devices too large to practically use, as tablets, and edging slowly towards the mobile simplicity end. But to break free of the keyboard, in terms of real market adoption, MSFT is going to need some UI optimisation, and PWAs to succeed.

I mean I use a keyboardless windows tablet, but _for most people_ it's not quite an ipad, in terms of ease of use. So currently, that is not surface go's market - it seems quite squarely pitched as a tablet-like device, for students, that has the greater capability of windows software (ie education), and probably also for brief using road warriors like real estate etc.

So I wouldn't call it a overlap of market yet. More like a slightly more increased similarity. Which makes sense given that, as I have said, the ipad is more threat to windows dominance in education globally than anything else.

 

[Drael646464]

Exactly right. I love the form factor of the Surface Go, it's exactly what I want. But I can't use it because it lacks all of the business apps I need to do my job. With an iPad I can quickly and easily get actual work done when I'm in the field. I rarely bring my Windows 10 PC with me anymore.

Which apps are you talking about that windows doesn't have?

 

[Dusteater]

Which apps are you talking about that windows doesn't have?

I spend a huge amount of time in SalesForce, and using a web browser on Windows 10 isn't exactly a touch friendly interface. Same goes for Concur.

 

[Drael646464]

I spend a huge amount of time in SalesForce, and using a web browser on Windows 10 isn't exactly a touch friendly interface. Same goes for Concur.

Ah right, so it's the UI. They could save themselves a lot of development costs and run stuff like that via a PWA web app now (and make it touch friendly). Which would be nicer for users too. Hopefully that's the way development goes in the future for stuff that isn't input output heavy, or processor intensive.

 

[anon(50597)]

I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

 

[ochhanz]

Personally I like windows 10 for tablets and therefore would like to see ipad like tablets for w10 (10 inch 4:3/3:2). Sure there are some little problems like sometimes needing to touch a few times before the screen keyboard shows up and some gestures are missing (fixable with gesturesign), but I find the OS clearer than iOS, I like the w10 start menu more, more options for (full) browsers and access to Steam&GOG (whether I am on my laptop, desk or tablet I can access the same library instead of having to buy separate titles for different type devices).

 

[bh7171]

Re: Depends

ipads are far and away the most popular tablet. They also considerably more popular in most of the world than chromebooks in education (although windows actually leads in the majority of places, sensibly as windows dominates everywhere in industry and higher education).

They have shrunk a little in the last few years, but not as much as android devices have. Hybrids have been rapidly growing and are now not just the fastest growing form of tablet, but also the fastest growing segment of laptop.

But, to close that gap will take a lot of time. And these are not entirely overlapping markets - windows hybrids and tablets are for people who require more capable software, whereas as ios is sold on it's simplicity. the ipad pro, is actually one of apples worst performing products. It remains to be seen, whether they will even bother releasing another.

Should PWA take off, perhaps over time, windows could compete for the same market. And perhaps over time, hybrids will outnumber regular tablets. But we are talking about time scales much bigger than the surface go's market time.

What the surface go does IMO, is bridge very slightly more into that pure tablet domain - useable as a tablet, pen friendly, portable. It's pulling the market or leading it, away from it's obsession with hybrid devices too large to practically use, as tablets, and edging slowly towards the mobile simplicity end. But to break free of the keyboard, in terms of real market adoption, MSFT is going to need some UI optimisation, and PWAs to succeed.

I mean I use a keyboardless windows tablet, but _for most people_ it's not quite an ipad, in terms of ease of use. So currently, that is not surface go's market - it seems quite squarely pitched as a tablet-like device, for students, that has the greater capability of windows software (ie education), and probably also for brief using road warriors like real estate etc.

So I wouldn't call it a overlap of market yet. More like a slightly more increased similarity. Which makes sense given that, as I have said, the ipad is more threat to windows dominance in education globally than anything else.

I don't know where you reside but empirically Google has taken Apple and Microsoft to the shed in the education market. Google has @ 60 percent. I own and use a Windows 10 Acer Swift 3 laptop with an icore 5. 8GB and 256GB SSD. For the past two weeks I have used an Acer 14 Chromebook to see what my daughter meant when she noted her school was using Chromebooks and Google education software. Honestly I can do any and all things needed on the Chromebook and it is less than half of what I spent on my Swift 3. With the Google Play store and apps now available on Chromebooks I suspect their usage will only increase.

 

[DeepHeet]

Lots of great points in the discussion. Personally I don't think asking if Surface Go can compete with iPad is the right question, rather what is the target market. The Windows market has always been about choice which means no single device will dominate the market in the way iPads do.

As many have pointed out their are cheaper, and possibly better solutions for education.

If you want great battery life, instant on and use mostly browser and Windows Store apps then Windows on ARM might be a better choice.

For me Surface Go will find its niche in users who need a PC, but are extremely mobile and want a smaller lightweight device with reasonable battery life e.g. Sales reps, field force, students (not schools). Because it is a PC it fits well into the Enterprise from a management perspective.

Yes some consumers who want to upgrade an older laptop or Surface Pro and don't need a powerful device might choose Surface Go. And there is the dilemma. Surface Go probably won't take huge market share from Google and Apple, but will compete with other players in the PC market. It might however encourage other PC makers to up their game.

 

[Dusteater]

Lots of great points in the discussion. Personally I don't think asking if Surface Go can compete with iPad is the right question, rather what is the target market. The Windows market has always been about choice which means no single device will dominate the market in the way iPads do.

As many have pointed out their are cheaper, and possibly better solutions for education.

If you want great battery life, instant on and use mostly browser and Windows Store apps then Windows on ARM might be a better choice.

For me Surface Go will find its niche in users who need a PC, but are extremely mobile and want a smaller lightweight device with reasonable battery life e.g. Sales reps, field force, students (not schools). Because it is a PC it fits well into the Enterprise from a management perspective.

Yes some consumers who want to upgrade an older laptop or Surface Pro and don't need a powerful device might choose Surface Go. And there is the dilemma. Surface Go probably won't take huge market share from Google and Apple, but will compete with other players in the PC market. It might however encourage other PC makers to up their game.

I am a Sales Engineer and spend all my time in the field. This can't replace my iPad because the business apps I use aren't in the Microsoft Store. Microsoft can't even get the critical business apps in their store, which is really bad.

 

[Wevenhuis]

I think it can compete. Based on experience at work where most collegues use an iPad and a few colleugus, inculding me use a surface pro and book device in a mobile workspace at work.

both have issues with loss of wifi connectivitiy despite best efforts by technical service to maintain them. I'm noticing a slightly better reception over wifi with the surface device than the ipads

The ipads don't support apple pencil. The surface does. Very convenient to use on the go to take quick notes with OneNote

The iPad support more apps for offline use. I can find many equivalent software solutions via the web counterparts, but it does require a connection, so the exprience is slower to use them than with an iPad.Unfortunately many webservices are not uwp or uwp to date, which makes the windows ecosystem relatively weak in day to day use.

The surface pro keyboard work instantly on connection. On the iPad there is always a first slight connection lag with the bluetooth keyboard when you want to type instantly.


The apps on the iPad are slightly better designed for tablet use. But the placing of the buttons and their size are smaller than the apps in windows. But I think the UI on the iPad is better designed in terms of use of swipe gestures and apps in rotations. But I prefer the full screen tablet mode design with live tiles. Much easier to access and press and possibilities to snap files to the startscreen. Hube missed opportunities on the surface though are incomplete tablet mode experiences, such as auto rotate of snapped apps in tablet mode between landsacpe and portrait orientation, easier snapping of apps between left and right fielde with touch drag and drop gestures. The gestures now have become more complicated with the added layer of the app switcher and only then swiping the app, which is are more steps than the simplicitiy of windows 8. And I'm missing more surface pen refinements as being able to use the pen click to open a template note page in OneNote. To date only a default blank page can be programmed via settings, which is a valuable waste of functionality of the surface accessory device.

Safari seems snappier and quicker to render pages than Edge on the same wifi connection. Chorme is faster on windows 10. There is something wrong with the state of Edge on windows devices.

All in all if microsoft can adress to maintain a snappy performance of tablet mode and Edge on the Pentium chip, invest serious developer time into optimizing the tablet expreience for windows on tablet pc devices and improve the UWP/PWA apps, I think it could be a great contender for the iPad.

While they're at it. If microsoft can find it in their business hard to include the type cover as part of the same price package, and preferably the surface pen too, it would be a steal and be less of a difficult choice to go for the Surface go. 399 with a market in small business and education, I think it's too expensive to shell another 200 dollars for a keyboard and pen. I have never used a surface (pro) device without a type cover.

 

[anon(50597)]

What would make people switch? Why leave a platform you are comfortable with for something new?
Just honest questions I think need to be answered in order for a true perception.

 

[Chris Stevens1]

This is a Surface device. As such, it is meant to be premium, and aspirational to OEMs. As a part of the surface line, it is also subject to the "Surface Surcharge", an artificial price addition that allows OEMs to manufacture similar devices, of similar quality, and profitably sell them at a lower price.

If OEMs like Dell and HP choose to "clone" the Surface Go, they could probably achieve the prices you are looking for. (Please note the Dell, HP, ACER, ASUS, etc. are all capable of making high quality devices. They also make less expensive lesser quality devices. Do not assume that a Surface clone will be low quality device.)

 

[Timbre70]

What's so premium about the Go? It's akin to budget airline belonging to a premium carrier.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Depends

I don't know where you reside but empirically Google has taken Apple and Microsoft to the shed in the education market. Google has @ 60 percent. I own and use a Windows 10 Acer Swift 3 laptop with an icore 5. 8GB and 256GB SSD. For the past two weeks I have used an Acer 14 Chromebook to see what my daughter meant when she noted her school was using Chromebooks and Google education software. Honestly I can do any and all things needed on the Chromebook and it is less than half of what I spent on my Swift 3. With the Google Play store and apps now available on Chromebooks I suspect their usage will only increase.

I live outside the US. That should pretty much answer your question, as that is literally the only place in the world where chromebooks have any significant market presence in education. Something I beleive those students will regret when they find higher education and industry require Windows or at leas OSX.


Look at any global market stats, and find you are wrong. Chromebook is a US only phenomena. Outside the US, there are more ipads than chromebooks, and overall windows is (sensibly given what I just said above), dominant. I think that is part of the motivation for MSFT focus on education. It's that they want to keep the majority of the developed by replicating some of the advantages of chromeOS and ipad, not that they want to take it back.

Copying feature sets, like via windows on arm for example, or by enhancing tablet useability are defensive, not offensive business moves. This is like what Instagram did with snapchat. It's to hold onto user base.

And you can tell google is nervous about it, and apple too. Their ipad pro is a market flop compared especially to PC hybrids (it's their lowest selling model by many factors - and a product they declared only some years ago was as silly as a refrigerating toaster). Google is aiming for MSFT certification on their pixel - which means they are aiming for the same hardware OEMs will be making for windows on arm - that's definately a defensive move. Especially considering google has refused to even put apps in the windows store, and now they are considering riding in the same hardware bus.

I can't really speak to the US situation, as I don't live there. But I do feel sorry for people being raised in ecosystems that are largely irrelevant the moment they leave high school, and I hope they have some exposure to OSes, that industry and higher education actually use, before they are plopped in front of a mac, or a PC, floundering (or just not getting the job).

It astounds me that educators would be so short sighted to see devices as only "tools that get things done", and not "systems to learn, as discrete skills because they are useful in the world". That's like saying ancient Sanskrit is useful because you can use it to say hello - well, yes, but nobody speaks Sanskrit, so good luck with that.

 

[anon(50597)]

Re: Depends

I live outside the US. That should pretty much answer your question, as that is literally the only place in the world where chromebooks have any significant market presence in education. Something I beleive those students will regret when they find higher education and industry require Windows or at leas OSX.


Look at any global market stats, and find you are wrong. Chromebook is a US only phenomena. Outside the US, there are more ipads than chromebooks, and overall windows is (sensibly given what I just said above), dominant. I think that is part of the motivation for MSFT focus on education. It's that they want to keep the majority of the developed by replicating some of the advantages of chromeOS and ipad, not that they want to take it back.

Copying feature sets, like via windows on arm for example, or by enhancing tablet useability are defensive, not offensive business moves. This is like what Instagram did with snapchat. It's to hold onto user base.

And you can tell google is nervous about it, and apple too. Their ipad pro is a market flop compared especially to PC hybrids (it's their lowest selling model by many factors - and a product they declared only some years ago was as silly as a refrigerating toaster). Google is aiming for MSFT certification on their pixel - which means they are aiming for the same hardware OEMs will be making for windows on arm - that's definately a defensive move. Especially considering google has refused to even put apps in the windows store, and now they are considering riding in the same hardware bus.

I can't really speak to the US situation, as I don't live there. But I do feel sorry for people being raised in ecosystems that are largely irrelevant the moment they leave high school, and I hope they have some exposure to OSes, that industry and higher education actually use, before they are plopped in front of a mac, or a PC, floundering (or just not getting the job).

It astounds me that educators would be so short sighted to see devices as only "tools that get things done", and not "systems to learn, as discrete skills because they are useful in the world". That's like saying ancient Sanskrit is useful because you can use it to say hello - well, yes, but nobody speaks Sanskrit, so good luck with that.

I think you have to look at it from a different perspective.
Chromebooks have brought technology to the classroom and especially to low income areas. That’s the advantage Google has. They have created, with both Chromebooks and mobile devices, technology that almost anyone can afford. Math and science skills. Computer skills. This will create innovation that could never be done before. These kids know Google and are comfortable with it. They will be able learn Windows or whatever some day if it’s required for a job because they will have developed the skills in the classroom. Google and Apple aren’t scared because they are at the forefront of new technology.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Depends

I think you have to look at it from a different perspective.
Chromebooks have brought technology to the classroom and especially to low income areas. That’s the advantage Google has. They have created, with both Chromebooks and mobile devices, technology that almost anyone can afford. Math and science skills. Computer skills. This will create innovation that could never be done before. These kids know Google and are comfortable with it. They will be able learn Windows or whatever some day if it’s required for a job because they will have developed the skills in the classroom. Google and Apple aren’t scared because they are at the forefront of new technology.

If you've ever seen mac user use a PC for the first time, or a PC user use a mac for the first time, you'd know that it's almost like learning from scratch. What your equipped with is a basic knowledge of how computer OSes work, but you still have no idea how to do any particular task. Worse, you can do considerably less on a chromebook in terms of complicated tasks.

A lot of jobs require upfront PC skills, and most university courses just assume you know - learning architecture or physics at the same time as how to use the computer is going to be too high of a hurdle for most.


If my kid was using chrome at school, I would ensure their home computer was a PC (or a mac if they intended on getting into film or media). You can get a secondhand desktop for like 50 bucks, pick up a TV at a pawn shop for 20, boom.

As far as price, with the advent of some of the cheaper intel chips, and rise of the Chinese market, bottom tier windows tablets are now about as cheap as chromebooks - you can get them for under 200 USD, and you can also get hybrids around that price, some of them good value (Chuwi hi10 for example) You can get pretty great ones for around 300 USD (like the Chuwi lapbook air).

The price difference currently between a chromebook and a windows laptop is small at best, or even non-existent if you just consider windows tablets (which can be had for under 100 USD). IDK exactly how chromebooks are priced, because no one uses them in my country, but I feel like the price difference if it exists, is vastly overstated, and the result of shopping mainstream western brands in big box stores, rather than the actual available prices one might get by taking as small a step as looking on amazon.

In that, I feel like the rise of chrome in the US, is more of a cultural trend, than something based on any real advantages (apart perhaps from low administration for the school, and instant on, which hopefully down the track, you'll be able to get cheaply via windows on arm)

In regards to competition - hybrids are the fastest growing segment of both tablets and laptops - and both android OEMs, and apple tried to replicate that by creating hybrids, all of which were failures. Tablets in general are actually a shrinking market - this is why apple also released the cheaper version of the ipad. If apple perceived no threat they wouldn't have moved from "hybrids are the silliest thing ever, hahaha", to oh **** we need to make a hybrid, and oh crap no one is buying it. Apple has it's little niche with the MacBook, but right now it's profits come almost entirely from the iPhone - with a tiny portion from the new, cheaper ipad (a move they never would have made if ipads were still selling like they were 3-4 years ago). Apples relative comfort comes from mobile - and worse, for apple at least, post-saturation, the smartphone market is massively slowing. Once developing markets like india go, apple will need a new plan on how to make similar money.

Same goes for google - google wouldn't be adding Linux emulation to chrome, and certifying their pixel as a windows machine, if they didn't perceive a direct future threat from windows on arm. At a minimum, they clearly perceive a similar market for chrome and windows - windows being the vastly more dominant desktop OS in general, both in the US and globally. To say that google aren't threatened in the desktop and laptop space is just disingenuous - google are a dominant mobile player. MSFT is the top dog of PCs. In that market, it's google that's playing the up and coming underdog. Threatened wouldn't even be sufficient to describe the position of a challenger. From googles POV, their smartphone market is safer - the shift in the smartphone market to cheaper devices, and price point competition, doesn't effect them as they are not OEMs. Their main source of profit is search, and whilst bing and others have made real inroads, that's still not really under threat. But they have struggled to monetize much else in a significant way, and the goal of enterprise is always growth, not staying where you are. That growth is proving hard, just as msfts move into more mobile devices is a challenge, it's quite difficult to get chrome up to scratch, and playing with the big boys - and lots of ventures of google have proven just as difficult in terms of creating new profit streams. ChromeOS is a natural move - some 40 percent of search engine searches are desktop, and without dominating that, they will never be able to secure their position firmly, and permenantly as search leader.

Now should apple ever drop google search and develop their own search (which I personally think they are), that would have quite a significant impact on their current bottom line. Both google and apple have a single product for their majority of income, and that makes their market position a whole lot less certain than people might otherwise assume. Yes, they have mindshare. But should they lose dominance over time to their main product, they will still need to convert that into a new profit stream.