Surface Reviews Thread

[crystal_planet]

Because I know Apple did extensive ergonomic studies and that's why they adopted the 4:3 form factor. I know from my own iPad usage that it's "just right" and wider/taller would be epic FAIL.

Apple did jack. The 4:3 form factor is what was prevalent when the original iPad was built, and since then nothing has changed. If by "extensive ergonomic studies" you mean Apple just employed what was out there to begin with, then yes, they did their homework.

On a different note, the newest iPad has been released. It now has the lightning connector - innovative and revolutionary. Go out and get one.

 

[DJRedLine]

Just read the Gizmodo review. loving the comments and how even 1 of their own reviewers (Jesus) is complaining on how the review was structured.

 

[mparker]

I ordered one the first few minutes of the preorder, but I'm almost certainly going to send it back on arrival - I can't find any way on the microsoft store website to cancel the order (edit: canceled through the store's chat interface).

Background: I have a Lenovo X220T (convertible tablet/laptop) that has been running Windows 8 since Jan. The reviews thus far have hit on two of my biggest concerns about Surface and Win8 tablets in general - the form factor and the apps.

Form factor: My Lenovo been great as a laptop, but is too heavy and cumbersome to be seriously used as a tablet (see my comment to this post - http://forums.windowscentral.com/1720497-post7.htm) My hope was that Surface would solve this problem, but it appears that they haven't, and I think it's likely an inherent problem with the aspect ratio. My Lenovo is too tippy in portrait mode (the height makes it hard to hold stable, and tiring as well), a problem that was echoed by the Surface reviews. In landscape mode you wind up having to hold it one-handed with that massive width providing a lot of leverage for that weight, while tap-tapping at the on-screen keyboard with the other hand. The split screen keyboard that allows you to type while holding it two handed seems like a great solution, but in practice it is very difficult to use because each hand is simultaneously trying to hold the tablet stable and move the thumbs around to type. I think this is why the reviewers universally complained about the weight even though it's essentially the same weight as the iPad - that weight has much more leverage because of the form factor. This all means the flipstand and floppy typing covers become essential to actually use it, except that you can't use it in your lap because the flipstand has a fixed (steep) angle, and the typing cover is too floppy. But if you have to set it down on a desk or table to use it, then what you have is not a tablet, what you have is not even a laptop, but a very underpowered (but very light) desktop machine.

Apps: I was hoping that WinRT would be capable of running WP7.5 apps, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The lack of apps is a killer. My Lenovo has an i7 cpu so it is running full windows 8, so applications aren't a problem. The Surface has only a handful of apps. Microsoft really shot themselves by not supporting WP7.5 apps on WinRT. The iPad may have only had a handful of apps when it launched (I had one of the early ones), but it could run iPhone apps to help tide its owners over until the market matured. The WinRT market will improve over time, but Microsoft needed a huge wave of customers that would be enthusiastic enough about their product to rave about it to their friends. Without a huge wave of WinRT adopters, there's relatively little incentive for developers to write WinRT apps. Windows 8 machines will run standard Win32/Win64 apps just fine after all, and those apps cannot be easily ported to WinRT. So to justify that effort, developers need a good solid market that can only be satisfied with a WinRT app, which means a large customer base that can only run WinRT apps - i.e. ARM tablets. x86 tablets and laptops don't provide that market - they're already served by traditional windows apps. It's a chicken and egg problem for Microsoft, as it was for Apple, but Microsoft completely missed the plot. Without that initial catalog of apps, WinRT is in the same position that WP7.0 was two years ago, and facing the same long hard slog.

Edit: Just canceled - you have to go through their chat interface.

 

[JamesDax]

I ordered one the first few minutes of the preorder, but I'm almost certainly going to send it back on arrival - I can't find any way on the microsoft store website to cancel the order.

Background: I have a Lenovo X220T (convertible tablet/laptop) that has been running Windows 8 since Jan. The reviews thus far have hit on two of my biggest concerns about Surface and Win8 tablets in general - the form factor and the apps.

Form factor: My Lenovo been great as a laptop, but is too heavy and cumbersome to be seriously used as a tablet (see my comment to this post - http://forums.windowscentral.com/1720497-post7.htm) My hope was that Surface would solve this problem, but it appears that they haven't, and I think it's likely an inherent problem with the aspect ratio. My Lenovo is too tippy in portrait mode (the height makes it hard to hold stable, and tiring as well), a problem that was echoed by the Surface reviews. In landscape mode you wind up having to hold it one-handed with that massive width providing a lot of leverage for that weight, while tap-tapping at the on-screen keyboard with the other hand. The split screen keyboard that allows you to type while holding it two handed seems like a great solution, but in practice it is very difficult to use because each hand is simultaneously trying to hold the tablet stable and move the thumbs around to type. I think this is why the reviewers universally complained about the weight even though it's essentially the same weight as the iPad - that weight has much more leverage because of the form factor. This all means the flipstand and floppy typing covers become essential to actually use it, except that you can't use it in your lap because the flipstand has a fixed (steep) angle, and the typing cover is too floppy. But if you have to set it down on a desk or table to use it, then what you have is not a tablet, what you have is not even a laptop, but a very underpowered (but very light) desktop machine.

Apps: I was hoping that WinRT would be capable of running WP7.5 apps, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The lack of apps is a killer. My Lenovo has an i7 cpu so it is running full windows 8, so applications aren't a problem. The Surface has only a handful of apps. Microsoft really shot themselves by not supporting WP7.5 apps on WinRT. The iPad may have only had a handful of apps when it launched (I had one of the early ones), but it could run iPhone apps to help tide its owners over until the market matured. The WinRT market will improve over time, but Microsoft needed a huge wave of customers that would be enthusiastic enough about their product to rave about it to their friends. Without a huge wave of WinRT adopters, there's relatively little incentive for developers to write WinRT apps. Windows 8 machines will run standard Win32/Win64 apps just fine after all, and those apps cannot be easily ported to WinRT. So to justify that effort, developers need a good solid market that can only be satisfied with a WinRT app, which means a large customer base that can only run WinRT apps - i.e. ARM tablets. x86 tablets and laptops don't provide that market - they're already served by traditional windows apps. It's a chicken and egg problem for Microsoft, as it was for Apple, but Microsoft completely missed the plot. Without that initial catalog of apps, WinRT is in the same position that WP7.0 was two years ago, and facing the same long hard slog.

Please do send it back.

 

[theefman]

@mparker: you're missing the fact that x86 devices can also run WinRT apps and with a potential market in the hundreds of millions in the next 6 months only lazy/MS hating devs won't be making apps for Windows 8. I agree though that you should send it back, your use case won't be fulfilled by a tablet form factor like the Surface.

 

[power5]

Surface is .05lbs heavier than the iPad. It also has a larger screen. Its .1mm thicker than ipad. Funny thing is all reviews say its hefty or heavy compared to an ipad. So, either the advertised stats are wrong, or people are just restating what they "hear".

I am concerned with the performance as I have seen the lag in a few reviews. Makes me again wonder how they could not have put the quad core snapdragon in this thing. If drivers were an issue, assist the qualcomm team in fixing the issues. Nivdia does this all the time with game developers and its helps very much. I wonder how long it will take for the surface 2 to be released. I may be waiting for that even though I really want one now.


I hate this ergonomic BS. You think Apple comes to decisions based on research? You are very misguided. Apple is the king of post rationalization. I am a designer and I love post rationalization as well. I can make anything I design "Seem" like it was intentional but using the right arguments. And yeah, steve always said 3.5 was the perfect size and why they settled on that size. Then cook releases the 4" and again, its the perfect size. Whats even funnier is that its 16:9 and is the perfect ratio for content, where as the 4:3 of the ipad is also the perfect ratio content. They post rationalize every product they sell.

 

[berty6294]

Review: Microsoft Surface Tablet

I really enjoyed the Wired review. Seemed very fair and even tested to see how much pressure was needed to break the kickstand!

His ending comments were on par and fair and had me chuckle at his joke "You’ll find a better selection of apps at your local TGI Friday’s."

 

[DontHate707]

Yeah I don't like any of the reviews I'm reading so far there knocking the OS more then anything and for apps? I feel like there reviewing wp7.5 or something. The surface pro should put all the tablets to the grave yard when they finally come out I just hope there not to expensive.

 

[mparker]

@mparker: you're missing the fact that x86 devices can also run WinRT apps and with a potential market in the hundreds of millions in the next 6 months only lazy/MS hating devs won't be making apps for Windows 8. I agree though that you should send it back, your use case won't be fulfilled by a tablet form factor like the Surface.

I said "a large customer base that can only run WinRT apps" and I meant it.

The fact that hundreds of millions of Win8 desktops and laptops will soon be able to run WinRT apps is great. But those hundreds of millions of Win8 systems can also run all my existing applications. And hundreds of millions more Win7/Vista/XP desktops can only run my existing applications. So what is the economic incentive to re-write my application from scratch for WinRT? The answer is - to reach those customers that can only run WinRT applications. But there needs to be a lot of them to justify the expense of re-writing my applications, and the ongoing expense of maintaining and testing both versions. And there just aren't enough captive WinRT customers, and may not be anytime soon given Microsoft's two major missteps here. But there are lots of customers that can only be satisfied with an iOS app. If it takes roughly the same amount of time and money to rewrite for iOS...

It remains to be seen if WP8 can run WinRT apps. If they can't then that's three major missteps. I'd have to write and support three version of the app just for Microsoft's major platforms. I'm having a hard time getting excited about the prospect of that.

I'm neither lazy nor MS-hating. I've been a MS developer since the DOS 2.0 days, and have been a lead developer on Windows applications with over 50 million lines of code. But I have a hard time seeing the economic advantage in rewriting my apps for WinRT instead of the iPad market. Not even the smallish apps with only a million or so lines of code. I'm piddling around with a WinRT app that's a few thousand lines of code, but that's about the limit I'm willing to commit given the forseeable state of the market. I may be the only developer that thinks that way, but I kind of doubt it (see WP7.x, success, lack of).

 

[DontHate707]

Its like all the reviewers are stuck on ipads and its not really a fair comparison when you think of this being Microsofts first tablet and there introducing a whole new eco system to a very competitive market like wtf was everyone expecting I know if I had the money id buy one over any android tab or iPad even tho the iPads app store is quit impressive

 

[mparker]

Surface is .05lbs heavier than the iPad. It also has a larger screen. Its .1mm thicker than ipad. Funny thing is all reviews say its hefty or heavy compared to an ipad. So, either the advertised stats are wrong, or people are just restating what they "hear".

I think they're likely right. It's not just the weight, it's how you have to carry it. That wider screen means the weight is exerting more leverage against your fingers, so it "feels" heavier than it is. But this subjective feel is likely more truthful for daily use - a device like that will be much more tiring to hold and use than it's weight suggests.

 

[crystal_planet]

Then why did you order it in the first place.?The shortfalls you pointed to were there in the beginning - you should have given it a pass at that time.

**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

 

[shingi_70]

Most reviews seem to be pretty positive. My biggest problem is that most reviews I see keep trying to compare it too both a tablet and laptop.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[mparker]

Then why did you order it in the first place.?The shortfalls you pointed to were there in the beginning - you should have given it a pass at that time.

Because the shortfalls were not obviously there in the first place.

The Surface had not yet been released and reviewed. There was no reason to suspect that a machine 1/4 the weight of my Lenovo and 1/4 the size would nonetheless still suffer from the same handling issues.

WinRT (the OS, not the API) had not yet been released and reviewed. So it was not yet apparent that Microsoft had not included WP7.5/WP8 compatibility on a machine running the same basic ARM CPU as their phones, running on the same basic OS kernel as their phones, thus depriving their splashy new tablet OS the apps it critically needs at this early stage of its existence.

 

[berty6294]

Yeh people need to understand that there is no such thing as a perfect product! Nobody can do it! It is physically impossible for a manufacturer to make the best of both worlds without a little give and take. You dont think hundreds of people maybe thousands have been trying to find something that is the perfect tablet and the perfect laptop put together into one product! No matter who is designing it, there is going to be give and take do to physical requirements and the fact that some people find certain features of higher priority than others!

 

[crystal_planet]

I think they're likely right. It's not just the weight, it's how you have to carry it. That wider screen means the weight is exerting more leverage against your fingers, so it "feels" heavier than it is. But this subjective feel is likely more truthful for daily use - a device like that will be much more tiring to hold and use than it's weight suggests.

Can I take a page from Apple and say, "You're holding it wrong"? I'd imagine it's more ungainly holding it in portrait mode because of simple physics, but you will probably use landscape 85% of the time anyway.

**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

 

[crystal_planet]

Because the shortfalls were not obviously there in the first place.

The Surface had not yet been released and reviewed. There was no reason to suspect that a machine 1/4 the weight of my Lenovo and 1/4 the size would nonetheless still suffer from the same handling issues.

WinRT (the OS, not the API) had not yet been released and reviewed. So it was not yet apparent that Microsoft had not included WP7.5/WP8 compatibility on a machine running the same basic ARM CPU as their phones, running on the same basic OS kernel as their phones, thus depriving their splashy new tablet OS the apps it critically needs at this early stage of its existence.

I disagree. I knew the app situation would be completely undeveloped and I knew the form factor going in. Based on the amount of 7.5 threads here, we also knew that it would be left behind when 8.0 was released.


**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

 

[justreason]

Read ar technica's and engadget's.. The hardware seemed cool to both.. They said the speakers are not that loud which is bad since it has two but having an Xbox will be cool for when I'm home.. They said the keyboards will take some getting used to..

Apps.. Apps.. Apps.. Microsoft will get the surface what it needs.. Might have to be patient.. The Xbox has so much more than the ps3.. So I'm confident..

Can't wait to start publishing eBooks and writing my dissertation on my surface with a cyan keyboard.. Completely replacing my black MacBook..

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

 

[mparker]

Can I take a page from Apple and say, "You're holding it wrong"? I'd imagine it's more ungainly holding it in portrait mode because of simple physics, but you will probably use landscape 85% of the time anyway.

My Lenovo is ungainly in both orientations, but for different reasons. In portrait it's tippy. In landscape it's nice and stable and easy to hold, as long as you are just looking at it. Once you start pointing and pinching and typing it get much more ungainly, because now you're holding it one-handed with that width and weight hanging out there; even tapping the screen on the far side causes noticeable tilting because even the slight pressure of a tap has much greater leverage against your fingers. And the split virtual keyboard isn't as easy to use as you'd think.

I disagree. I knew the app situation would be completely undeveloped and I knew the form factor going in. Based on the amount of 7.5 threads here, we also knew that it would be left behind when 8.0 was released.

I was one of the ones arguing most vociferously that there were sound economic and technical reasons why WP7.x devices were unlikely to be upgraded, against a chorus of people claiming that there was no way Microsoft would abandon them. This is a different situation, and much more serious. Microsoft is gimping their tablet OS from the start, for no good technical or economic reason that I can discern. If it's true that WP8 can run WP7.5 apps, on the same basic CPU and same basic OS kernel as WinRT, then I fail to see why WinRT couldn't have included that WP7.x/WP8.x subsystem.

 

[power5]

I thought current windows phone apps would work in RT. Not optimized for RT but will still run.