100K apps; Where are the RT doom-and-gloomers now?

[neo158]

If they put Bay Trail into the Surface RT shell (very high quality) you'd be lucky if you sold 1 RT for every 100 Surface Bay Trails. The performance of the Clover Trail Win 8 Tablets matches or exceeds the Surface RT and the only thing Surface RT has is the very high quality construction. Surface RT as an OS can not compete with Windows 8.1 on the upcoming Intel Haswell series of chips and Surface RT will die another slow MS death (Zune HD anyone). Even if you're in the Modern UI most of the time it is nice to have the backup of availability of Windows 8.1 desktop apps.

Except they won't, you do realise that 8.1 is coming to Surface RT as well. Unable to compete, I don't think so and at least I don't need to hand over ?300 - ?500 for an Office 2013 license as that's built in with Outlook coming in the 8.1 update. I think that the days of Windows 8, not Windows RT, tablets are numbered. You seem like the sort of person who hated Windows Phone and thought that it would "die another slow MS death"!!!!!

 

[inteller]

It would be great if they could port them over - but from a usability standpoint a lot of the power functions haven't changed since pre windows xp.

Regedit is the single most powerful part of a windows machine if you know what you are doing with it. You don't have to be up to no good either, the personalisation you can bring to your device is worthy of fiddling with regedit alone

the personalization you speak of need to be exposed through the modern interface, not accessed through regedit.

 

[martinmc78]

the personalization you speak of need to be exposed through the modern interface, not accessed through regedit.

I agree with you - even down to simple things - like changing the name of the recycle bin. This should all be under personalisation options in a modern UI consistent with the rest of the system. Not tucked away in a sub section under HK local machine.

 

[loribinca]

Good thing 8.1 has VPN support then, huh?

Except that Cisco is the one the majority of companies seem to use .. and RT won't (and likely never will) support that

 

[inteller]

I agree with you - even down to simple things - like changing the name of the recycle bin. This should all be under personalisation options in a modern UI consistent with the rest of the system. Not tucked away in a sub section under HK local machine.

things you refer to like renaming Recycle Bin aren't even applicable to the modern interface once the Desktop goes away.

 

[martinmc78]

things you refer to like renaming Recycle Bin aren't even applicable to the modern interface once the Desktop goes away.

It was an example - I take it you get the point though.

 

[stephen_az]

If they put Bay Trail into the Surface RT shell (very high quality) you'd be lucky if you sold 1 RT for every 100 Surface Bay Trails. The performance of the Clover Trail Win 8 Tablets matches or exceeds the Surface RT and the only thing Surface RT has is the very high quality construction. Surface RT as an OS can not compete with Windows 8.1 on the upcoming Intel Haswell series of chips and Surface RT will die another slow MS death (Zune HD anyone). Even if you're in the Modern UI most of the time it is nice to have the backup of availability of Windows 8.1 desktop apps.

It would be nice if people would stop spouting Bay Trail and Haswell every time the subject of some new/revolutionary tablet is speculated into existence. Bay Trail is mostly vaporware and still just another garbage Atom processor. People can keep putting lipstick on that pig and it is still a pig (or glorified netbook processor in this case). Intel marketing BS is never anywhere close to reality. That then gets to the almost orgasmic obsession people have with Haswell. For all of Intel's claims, please take a look at the battery life of the first fourth generation Windows based laptops entering the market. The battery life is simply a match for the third generation processors - if the third generation was high so is the fourth generation and if low it is still low. Improvements are incremental at best. Quite frankly, this should be no surprise since 1) Intel always claims their next processor is revolutionary but never delivers except under the equivalent of lab conditions; 2) as long as there is no optimization in other components you are only addressing one element of the battery life mix; 3) even if you address everything else, the screen is still drawing the most power on a touch screen device and significant changes is power usage on that front are still barely on the horizon. Turning speculation about some future device into fantasy only leads people to show up places like this when fantasy is then proven to still not be reality.

 

[gilezzz]

I honestly think desktop will no longer evolve and eventually die off (see Windows 8.1 - improvement is on Modern UI side). Maybe not this year or in 5 years. But I believe that is where windows is headed. Soon Modern apps will be as powerful as desktop programs. Soon you will see popular desktop programs ported as popular Modern apps. Soon there will be no more desktop.

If you mean Windows 7 desktop, maybe. But I think the idea of desktop and mouse will stay.

Let's take the mouse: have you considered how relaxing (and energy-saving, and clever) is resting your arm on your desk and just moving around the mouse? Just this single thing makes me feel that the mouse is here to stay.

..still, when I'm at work on my 24-inch display sometimes I touch the screen.. I would surely like it to be a touch screen!
A touch screen gives great flexibility to the interface. And more flexibility, more space for new ideas on how to design an application. So I think we will see a lot of new applications coming out for Windows 8 which use both the touch screen and the mouse. The best app developers will know how to balance the convenience of touch with the convenience of the mouse.

I have seen some machines which have touch displays that can be angled freely. For instance I think the Lenovo A720 is a kind of design we will see more and more for work PCs. We will just be using the mouse, fingers or a pen depending on the activity.

So what about the desktop? This won't kill the desktop, will change its design. The convenience of having a virtual desk where to place your folders, links, files and open them as you wish is something we still need. But we will use our fingers to move things around, arrange windows etc.

Let's come to Microsoft. This evolution of the desktop is something that Microsoft to me has ignored. And this shows how "desperate" they were about launching their Metro OS. What they should have done, in my opinion, is to actually create a new Windows with a new desktop design that uses touch. This way they would make me want to buy a touch enabled laptop or desktop. Instead they just glued together a tablet OS (Metro) with the old Windows 7, and sold it as a "new philosophy". I analyzed in my previous post why I think they did this, but as a customer i feel they just exploited me a bit.

I want to see if they can now catch up and give us something that really closes the gap between Windows 7 and Metro. Let's face it, they have been a little bad to us Windows customers, by forcing us to use this "two-headed monster" that is Windows 8. I hope they start thinking about us now...

 

[bilzkh]

Honestly, given how we're beginning to see some really interesting apps in the Store (e.g. Torrex) and how other big names are poised to join (e.g. Flipboard), I think Windows RT is shaping up quite nicely.

Let's say that besides a few official apps that the best Windows RT could summon are Metro versions of Office, fine, but why is it so bad to have a dedicated productivity tablet? Why can't people buy one of these RT units for their work needs while at the same time have an iPad or Android for play?

Maybe that is the future of Windows...to no longer be the only solution for people's computing needs, but to be part of a wider collection but serve a great value-added purpose. Productivity is Microsoft's competitive advantage, and I'm glad to see Windows 8.1 make better use of multi-tasking.

But here's the catch, if more people buy Windows RT then we'll see more developers and vendors support it.

 

[Ridemyscooter86]

People seem insistent on keeping the desktop and here's a simple argument I have against it for win RT: the ipad does fine w/o a desktop and so does android. The metro file browser, while different, works just fine. The could completely port almost all major things about windows RT to metro without losing anything. This is also my major gripe with win 8 btw, that many of the functions that are in the control panel need to be on the metro side of the interface. I feel that with windows 8, MS really needs to have the desktop for some file organization and running x86 programs of course, but everything else, like settings and options should be put into metro. One complaint I've always had with windows, going back from xp at least, is to find something in the control panel, you have to go into multiple layers of menus that somewhat make sense, but not really. I'm not saying that to change anything on the control panel is hard for me because I know where everything is because I've used windows for so long, but to even do somewhat simple tasks, like keeping the power on your laptop on while the lid is shut, for example, requires you to go into like 4-5 separate sub menus just to do that simple task...

 

[inteller]

CP definitely needs to be rethought. It is 20+ years of glomming onto the same interface.

 

[Rico]

The current reality of RT is that the apps aren't there yet and the devices it runs on are underpowered. I often browse through the store, and I'd say that for every one good app I find, there's twenty more that are garbage; usually RSS readers or an app that has extremely limited functionality and a crappy UI. And there's no ARM device that rivals the performance of an x86 device in the ways that matter to most people who use RT and will use it, again, app selection and performance.

The future reality is that it's the future of Microsoft computing. We'll start to see this vision a little more this holiday season, with the release of Windows 8.1, likely a new Surface RT, and perhaps a few other RT devices from OEMS. At the moment and near future, OEMs will focus on x86 devices partially because people still want the full version of Windows, whether they truly need it or not. And most OEMs haven't dipped their toe in the ARM world, probably because of the above statement, possibly because of sourcing/licensing/production issues. This will slowly change over time.

The benefit of RT is that it dumps the legacy of x86. This means that it's not vulnerable to the same malware, it loses the bloat associated with the necessity of running x86 apps, and for Microsoft it gives them a fresh start to build a new product. RT also benefits from running from much more mobile-friendly processors, which means thinner and lighter devices, and devices which are also cheaper. And to Microsoft, RT means that they have a hedge against Intel and AMD. I doubt Intel's Haswell and newer processors would have the performance they have if they didn't feel the heat from ARM manufacturers. That type of competition is great for us consumers. The last benefit of RT is that it's a truly modern mobile environment. It's made first for touch screens, syncs to the cloud, and is practically impossible to screw up, unless you start messing around on the desktop side. For that reason (and others) I think Microsoft will constantly push the desktop into the background. They tried to do it with starting in the Metro interface, but had to renege on that because it's still too early for Metro. Even though Window 8.1 gives you the ability to start on the desktop, it's still something you have to enable. In the future, we'll probably see the desktop relegated to an EXE that you have to dig for, similar to how Program Manager was hidden in Windows 95 until it was eventually killed off completely. This won't happen for a while though.

Personally, I got my Surface RT on the 26th and immediately installed all the updates and updated to the Windows 8.1 beta. This has been a great device for me, especially after exchanging my touch cover for the type cover. I can use Office, write, consume media, and even do a little web coding on the device. The compromises that RT has compared to x86 don't feel like compromises at all; and I think most people, particularly the type of person that buys an iPad over a laptop, would agree.

 

[Ridemyscooter86]

The current reality of RT is that the apps aren't there yet and the devices it runs on are underpowered. I often browse through the store, and I'd say that for every one good app I find, there's twenty more that are garbage; usually RSS readers or an app that has extremely limited functionality and a crappy UI. And there's no ARM device that rivals the performance of an x86 device in the ways that matter to most people who use RT and will use it, again, app selection and performance.

The future reality is that it's the future of Microsoft computing. We'll start to see this vision a little more this holiday season, with the release of Windows 8.1, likely a new Surface RT, and perhaps a few other RT devices from OEMS. At the moment and near future, OEMs will focus on x86 devices partially because people still want the full version of Windows, whether they truly need it or not. And most OEMs haven't dipped their toe in the ARM world, probably because of the above statement, possibly because of sourcing/licensing/production issues. This will slowly change over time.

The benefit of RT is that it dumps the legacy of x86. This means that it's not vulnerable to the same malware, it loses the bloat associated with the necessity of running x86 apps, and for Microsoft it gives them a fresh start to build a new product. RT also benefits from running from much more mobile-friendly processors, which means thinner and lighter devices, and devices which are also cheaper. And to Microsoft, RT means that they have a hedge against Intel and AMD. I doubt Intel's Haswell and newer processors would have the performance they have if they didn't feel the heat from ARM manufacturers. That type of competition is great for us consumers. The last benefit of RT is that it's a truly modern mobile environment. It's made first for touch screens, syncs to the cloud, and is practically impossible to screw up, unless you start messing around on the desktop side. For that reason (and others) I think Microsoft will constantly push the desktop into the background. They tried to do it with starting in the Metro interface, but had to renege on that because it's still too early for Metro. Even though Window 8.1 gives you the ability to start on the desktop, it's still something you have to enable. In the future, we'll probably see the desktop relegated to an EXE that you have to dig for, similar to how Program Manager was hidden in Windows 95 until it was eventually killed off completely. This won't happen for a while though.

Personally, I got my Surface RT on the 26th and immediately installed all the updates and updated to the Windows 8.1 beta. This has been a great device for me, especially after exchanging my touch cover for the type cover. I can use Office, write, consume media, and even do a little web coding on the device. The compromises that RT has compared to x86 don't feel like compromises at all; and I think most people, particularly the type of person that buys an iPad over a laptop, would agree.

I agree with almost everything you said except for the app store comment. Yes you are right in that out of every 1 app that is good, there are like 20 garbage ones too, but to be fair, its no different on android or iOS either. I've seen both stores flooded with craps. (BTW I love that word, I hope people start using it crappy + apps = craps lol)

 

[inteller]

Most recently the crapp count has exploded, even a lot of scam apps that sell themselves as whatsapp and charge

 

[Rico]

I agree with almost everything you said except for the app store comment. Yes you are right in that out of every 1 app that is good, there are like 20 garbage ones too, but to be fair, its no different on android or iOS either. I've seen both stores flooded with craps. (BTW I love that word, I hope people start using it crappy + apps = craps lol)

The difference is those app stores weren't flooded with RSS readers and ebooks as apps when they launched. I get this regardless of what app I search for in the store.That problem hit the iOS store within the first year if I remember correctly, but it wasn't something that happened right off the bat.