10-19-2013 02:11 PM
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  1. inteller's Avatar
    there are no keyboards for that money that are that thin or integrated, everything for a iPad looks like a folio case and doubles the thickness.
    07-25-2013 12:54 PM
  2. prlundberg's Avatar
    there are no keyboards for that money that are that thin or integrated, everything for a iPad looks like a folio case and doubles the thickness.
    No, the keyboards are not exactly the same, but that's not what you asked. They have bluetooth and can be used on other devices so they have advantages too.

    Being thin and integrated does not mean the resale price is justified.
    07-25-2013 02:39 PM
  3. inteller's Avatar
    it does when there is no equal. that's what I'm attempting to tell you but there seems to be a comprehension barrier.
    07-25-2013 04:03 PM
  4. homeedition88's Avatar
    Hi Guys
    I would like to say couple of things about this topic. I am a developer and i worked for a couple of projects with linux/unix platform, ios platform and android platform. Right now I am trying to improve my C# skills to build apps for windows 8 (Phone/Rt/8) platforms. I used various devices like ipads, android tablets etc.

    Limited ability devices like ipad (for example when you are surfing web with safari, background tabs automatically closed by system to provide more free ram space) are became more annoying (for me of course.) I start using RT and i loved it. OneNote and internet explorer integration is very good. Functionality on RT is beyond that Ipad and Android base tablets.

    On Android side there are some multitask experiments going on (like Samsung note series multi windows etc.) which are not sufficient enough because basically the core of OS is not optimize this kind of job. Microsoft did a better job on RT but;

    Opening an app took some time, not so much choice on hardware (especially cpu, or we can say more powerful Cpu options), naming failure to separate and differentiate OS's, RT did scare hardware manufactures and so on...

    These are the mistakes made by Microsoft. About hate I really don't understand why. These are just products, tools. I know to get them you need to pay for them and everybody wants to get best value to their products of course but still i can't understand it.
    Note: English is not my mother language sorry for the mistakes :)
    Laura Knotek and rav16 like this.
    07-25-2013 04:44 PM
  5. prlundberg's Avatar
    it does when there is no equal. that's what I'm attempting to tell you but there seems to be a comprehension barrier.
    Before claiming I have a comprehension problem, perhaps you should look at Surface sales numbers again. Consumers aren't buying your argument. Apple also uses this "they'll pay whatever we want them to" strategy, which has helped greatly to drive Android's success.
    07-26-2013 08:54 AM
  6. inteller's Avatar
    we were talking about the price of the keyboard and now we have shifted to surface sales....definitely a comprehension barrier somewhere.
    07-26-2013 08:55 AM
  7. prlundberg's Avatar
    we were talking about the price of the keyboard and now we have shifted to surface sales....definitely a comprehension barrier somewhere.
    Perhaps, or maybe just ignorance. You evidently haven't read all the reviews and the resulting discussions where the additional cost of the keyboard is a dealbreaker.

    Or maybe you don't realize the Surface itself was overpriced to begin with, with mid-range hardware being sold at a greater profit margin than even Apple would dare try. I would expect you to use the same logic there as well.

    But just so we get rid of any excuse for further ignorance, here are the costs to manufacture as estimated by IHS iSuppli Teardown Analysis Service:

    32GB Surface RT: $271
    Touch Cover: $16-18

    Charging almost double the manufacturing costs is gouging in this industry. Charging over 5 times the cost is ridiculously greedy and arrogant. You can argue that Office brings more value to the Surface if you need it. You can't make any such argument with the keyboard.
    Last edited by prlundberg; 07-26-2013 at 10:53 AM.
    07-26-2013 10:42 AM
  8. inteller's Avatar
    Right, because it took absolutely nothing to come up with the design and development of it...it was just "poof" and a keyboard appeared.
    07-26-2013 03:05 PM
  9. thecaringkind's Avatar
    Excellent point on the keyboard cover(s). Of course almost all OEM's gouge to some extent, (Apple and flash memory come to mind), however all things considered Microsoft priced ALOT of people who may gave been interested in the Surface RT right out of the market. It was absolutely overpriced from day one when you consider the limitations the finished product had. To justify the previous price point a much more polished product should have been offered or at the very least including the type covers may have added value for the high asking price.
    07-26-2013 04:22 PM
  10. prlundberg's Avatar
    Right, because it took absolutely nothing to come up with the design and development of it...it was just "poof" and a keyboard appeared.
    The design is innovative, but not on a technical level.

    It's quite clear that no matter what I present you will have another excuse to justify it, and even if you are correct it was still a bad move by Microsoft, just in a different way. So I see no point in continuing this discussion. Have a good weekend.
    07-26-2013 04:46 PM
  11. inteller's Avatar
    Excellent point on the keyboard cover(s). Of course almost all OEM's gouge to some extent, (Apple and flash memory come to mind), however all things considered Microsoft priced ALOT of people who may gave been interested in the Surface RT right out of the market. It was absolutely overpriced from day one when you consider the limitations the finished product had. To justify the previous price point a much more polished product should have been offered or at the very least including the type covers may have added value for the high asking price.
    it was priced the same as am ipad and does more...if it pricd people out of the market then they weren't after a serious tablet anyways. Big Lots sells $99 Polaroid android dreck for those folks.
    Derausgewanderte likes this.
    07-26-2013 06:54 PM
  12. inteller's Avatar
    The design is innovative, but not on a technical level.

    It's quite clear that no matter what I present you will have another excuse to justify it, and even if you are correct it was still a bad move by Microsoft, just in a different way. So I see no point in continuing this discussion. Have a good weekend.
    they aren't excuses they are facts.
    07-26-2013 06:55 PM
  13. Derausgewanderte's Avatar
    I also agree with many here that it is NOT cost that prevents people from buying or even considering the Surface RT. All of my colleagues at work use iPads. All of their friends have iPads, all their kids have iPads or Android devices. They mocked me initially when I got the SRT. After showing them again and again what it can do without any extra layers or additional hardware some are actually considering buying one. MSOffice free, I can plug in my Common Access Card reader to access government email, the fact I can plug my work hdd into it, transfer data for working on publications at home, just to name a few. I personally believe from the environment that I live in that it's mostly habit that overtakes reason. To break this it will certainly take longer than a single year with a new device on the market. Of course there will only be a few in the beginning. Taking those numbers to make any conclusions is suicide in this type of market. Why should I even expect numbers of units sold to be similar to a device that has been on the market for several years - goes beyond me. I do not believe MS is doing a good enough marketing job to change this sooner. Sure, they may have "cool" ads, but they are without content and meaningless. Most of the reviews I read are one-sided and I'd say many didn't even consider different environments for the device. It's easy to use cost as a reason if I don't have any other reason to give it a thumbs down.

    A student who has no problems affording an iPad should not have a problem affording a SRT (doesn't matter where the money comes from). My daughter wants an iPhone because everybody in her school has an iPhone. If I hadn't tried to convince my wife to try a WP she'd probably have an iPhone as well, just like all her friends and relatives. Why should I buy anything else when 90% I know have that same device? I don't even have to do the research. They'd even think I am cheap if I bought anything else.
    I also believe that going down in price may ultimately have a negative effect and the device being perceived as cheap. Habit is stronger than reason - it's not the cost that drives this, certainly not in the US in my opinion.

    my two cents
    Last edited by Derausgewanderte; 07-26-2013 at 08:13 PM.
    Laura Knotek, rav16 and StarLog like this.
    07-26-2013 07:36 PM
  14. thecaringkind's Avatar
    Consumers these days definitely watch how they spend their money. The SRT was something totally new from a brand not known for its stellar tablet space in the market. I think folks may be a little in denial if they believe that many people do not think with their wallets. Investing as much money on a totally new platform in a tablet space already ruled by Apple had a definite impact on sales as much as the product itself. To dismiss pricing is to be a little short sighted. Apple was able to justify their own overpricing with a superior product even if it wasn't as flexible as the SRT. To get people on board initially a tantalizing price point that undercuts your principle rival in the tablet space would go a long way. Its not a coincidence now that there appears to be much greater interest in SRT now at the reduced price. People LOVE bang for their buck.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-27-2013 12:24 AM
  15. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I kind of think they should have priced the typecover at 50$ and sold a the Surface with touchcover included free.

    Microsoft needed goodwill for their new OS.
    07-27-2013 07:56 AM
  16. calfee20's Avatar
    You all might want to check out a blog on zdnet about Windows RT. The comments were very positive for a change. A lot of RT owner wrote in and the haters couldn't get any traction. I see a turn in the attitude toward RT. A little more time and the right prices could turn this around. Here is the link OMG! They
    Derausgewanderte, CDiS99 and rav16 like this.
    07-28-2013 09:01 PM
  17. CDiS99's Avatar
    Sometimes I think I'm a lone soul, but then threads like this make me feel better about the RT community.

    I have never, ever understood the negative connotations aimed towards this device. I bought it last March at full retail, and would do so again today.

    At the time, I was comparing my options. I went to Apple's website and added a 64 GB iPad, Bluetooth keyboard, and a case similar to my Nixon. The price was a hundred or so bucks higher (maybe more).

    As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm a journalist and this device has just worked for me. No, I do not need to run accounting programs, Photoshop, etc. If I did, I would have purchased a Pro and been just as happy. The device is not perfect, we all know that. But, for me, it worked out of the box. Even Xbox Music has been pretty sweet thus far. I was always, and continue to be, baffled by negative reviews.

    The way I viewed the Surface was thusly: a tablet built for media consumption AND creation.

    EDIT: I'm on my third consecutive day of pretty heavy use and I have 10% battery remaining... I just wanted to add that bit.

    EDIT 2: What the heck is with all the hate for Desktop?? Yes, using it with touch is a bit of a pain in the a@@, but you can resize the text to make it easier for touch. And I think it's to fair to say most Surface users have the keyboard... It's great to be able to do file management, tasks, device management etc. in a familiar format.

    Edit 3: I had a Logitech Wave keyboard and mouse lying around the house. They use a mini receiver through the USB port. The keyboard and mouse were bought a while ago, and have not been used for at least a year. Well, out of curiosity, I just plugged it in. This also just worked. Even the little "service buttons" (not sure what they're actually called) somehow work (i.e. the little music button on the keyboard brings up Xbox Music). I also found a USB extender, so I'm going to purchase a Micro HDMI to VGA adapter and crank the productivity up even more :).
    Last edited by CDiS99; 07-29-2013 at 08:37 PM.
    07-29-2013 08:00 PM
  18. prlundberg's Avatar
    EDIT 2: What the heck is with all the hate for Desktop?? Yes, using it with touch is a bit of a pain in the a@@, but you can resize the text to make it easier for touch. And I think it's to fair to say most Surface users have the keyboard... It's great to be able to do file management, tasks, device management etc. in a familiar format.
    I don't hate the desktop, I'm glad it's there. What I hate is being forced to use it for things that should be a part of the Metro/Modern interface. It essentially makes a trackpad/mouse and keyboard a requirement for configuration and management which is just bad design in a tablet. 8.1 improves this quite a bit but there is a ways to go.
    07-30-2013 08:14 AM
  19. thecaringkind's Avatar
    CDiS99. Good post! You epitomize the feelings I was attempting to articulate when I started this thread. When you use the device day in and day out it really is solid. One of the more annoying quibbles I constantly hear is the about how the chipset is crap. Hmmm isn't it the sane chipset used in the 1st generation Nexus 7? Granted the SRT has a much beefier OS but I don't recall too many people crying about the same chipset they way they do about it now.

    The tablet isn't instant, blazing fast. However if is not slow by any calculation either. I had an HP Touchpad, Nook HD plus, Nexus 7, and and iPad mini. Depending on the application they all weren't blazing fast by any means and none of them offer the build quality and versatility of the SRT.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-30-2013 02:17 PM
  20. polbit's Avatar
    CDiS99. Good post! You epitomize the feelings I was attempting to articulate when I started this thread. When you use the device day in and day out it really is solid. One of the more annoying quibbles I constantly hear is the about how the chipset is crap. Hmmm isn't it the sane chipset used in the 1st generation Nexus 7? Granted the SRT has a much beefier OS but I don't recall too many people crying about the same chipset they way they do about it now.

    The tablet isn't instant, blazing fast. However if is not slow by any calculation either. I had an HP Touchpad, Nook HD plus, Nexus 7, and and iPad mini. Depending on the application they all weren't blazing fast by any means and none of them offer the build quality and versatility of the SRT.
    There is no denying that Tegra 3 IS CRAP. Memory bandwidth is horrible, and overall, it is way behind times. Fortunately for us, Surface RT doesn't need crazy CPUs/GPUs like Android to run smoothly. Unfortunately for us, the application load time is crap compared to Android. To each their own, and I'm overall happy with my re-purchase of RT at the new price, but I will certainly be buying the new version.
    07-30-2013 10:28 PM
  21. AR2186's Avatar
    I don't hate the desktop, I'm glad it's there. What I hate is being forced to use it for things that should be a part of the Metro/Modern interface. It essentially makes a trackpad/mouse and keyboard a requirement for configuration and management which is just bad design in a tablet. 8.1 improves this quite a bit but there is a ways to go.
    8.1 Preview negates this, no need for desktop any longer other than office
    07-30-2013 10:37 PM
  22. spaulagain's Avatar
    8.1 Preview negates this, no need for desktop any longer other than office
    Mostly, they still have some things lingering around. They need to remove the old control panel PERIOD, not just port more things into a duplicate Metro version.

    There is absolutely no reason the control panel needs to have a desktop UI. A Metro version on a desktop would work just as well especially with the added snap functionality in 8.1.

    I like 8.1 and think it answers most of the problems. But I still think W8 needs some polish on the UI part. Things like buttons, windows menus, etc should look identical between the two UIs. Right now desktop is just the Aero UI without gradients/shadows.
    07-30-2013 11:10 PM
  23. prlundberg's Avatar
    I like 8.1 and think it answers most of the problems. But I still think W8 needs some polish on the UI part. Things like buttons, windows menus, etc should look identical between the two UIs. Right now desktop is just the Aero UI without gradients/shadows.
    Yeah, there's other little niggles too within Metro. Like sometimes you swipe back, sometimes you have to look for a back arrow. And that back arrow is small and needs too precise a touch to work. Touch overall needs to be more sensitive, I frequently have to press twice to get it to take. I have never had that issue with other touch devices. I know it sees the first touch because I can see the "blip" on the screen. And not being able to put my tiles exactly where I want them is very annoying, a design I would expect from Apple, not Microsoft.

    Some bugs are to be expected on a new OS. Others things are just inexplicable why they would purposely design like that. I once installed a major call center software product upgrade where the vendor bragged about the design team not knowing anything about the previous version and starting from scratch. Of course what they ended up with was pretty and more modern but lacked a lot of the previous product's functionality we had come to depend on. It took over a year of updates just to get it to an acceptable level of functionality and a lot longer to get it fully functioning. That's how I feel with Windows RT right now. If not for the desktop it would not be usable for me.
    07-31-2013 09:19 AM
  24. prlundberg's Avatar
    8.1 Preview negates this, no need for desktop any longer other than office
    It reduces the need but certainly doesn't negate it. I still needed it to assign files to libraries, update network settings, look at device properties, update profiles, and even had to edit the registry just to get DLNA streaming to work. I'm pretty sure I'd find more if I set it up from scratch again.
    07-31-2013 09:29 AM
  25. kwajr's Avatar
    Love,love my xps 10
    07-31-2013 08:23 PM
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