Why so much hate for RT?

I just purchased the Surface 32gig RT. I also loaded the 8.1 preview. So far I have a highly functional device that does some interesting things, some of them well. What I find curious is the amount and intensity of harsh criticism regarding RT overall. Tech blogs just rip it apart no matter what...Reviews pan the Surface RT across the board it seems however in many ways I think they may be missing the point. The design aesthetics pretty much required compromise on many levels and while execution overall isn't great, the RT is capable. Btw why do so many people. HATE the desktop so much?

I have an RT tablet too and I think it's great. I can consume all manner of media, control my desktop and Xbox, work with documents and print without effort. I think one reason the RT gets a bad rap is because it is unable to run desktop programs like the Windows 8 Pro tablet. The inclusion of a desktop environment in RT kind of invites this comparison, but it's still incorrect in my mind. The RT should be compared to the iPad, which isn't criticized for not running Mac programs. Even Paul Thurrott knocked RT for not being Pro, which I just don't get.

My own personal opinion... I think it's also because Microsoft has an image problem. For years, Microsoft was the only option for a PC OS, and people still associate it with crashes and data loss and all the headaches of being a PC user. Now there are alternatives out there like Google and Apple that are very popular, and people who spent years blaming Microsoft for every BSOD just aren't willing to give them the time of day anymore if they don't have to. Microsoft has become the brand that a great number of people love to hate.

Lastly, I think the Surface deserves some of the criticism it gets. It's still a little rough around the edges, lacks apps, and requires a desktop environment that is confusing, difficult to use with a touch screen and only seems to be there because a pure Metro experience wasn't yet ready for prime time when RT launched. That said, I still think the RT is more than worth the money. Especially after the price drops.

I appreciate the feedback Johnny! I have the 8.1 preview up & humming and can it be a little snappier? Sure. However it has been a pleasure to use, (desktop) included. I'm not using the device with preconceived notions of tablet/laptop hybrid perfection. I'm taking it for what its worth, limitations and all. End result? Pretty nice piece of kit!

I'm pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoy my Surface RT. It's not a perfect device, however I've yet to see the perfect consumer device. It could be faster. But the fact that I can modify docs in Excel and Word and still play games in tablet mode while my brother can just play games on his ipad tells me I have the better device.

If Microsoft ever learns how to market, they could become dangerous again. The Bing ad campaign suggest to me that they are slowly learning. Until then the hate will continue.

I honestly don't understand all the hate either. Just got mine today and I'm loving it. I went online to talk about how much I loved it, but all I could find was hate. I found this thread by searching "why hate Windows RT?"

I hope the price cut of the Surface helps it become more widespread and quells all the hatred. I think it's definitely more useful than an ipad or android tablet, that's for sure.

Where is the love? Let's hope we get some soon!

I have the RT as well and have been nothing but pleased with it.

The RT bashers are the usual Microsoft haters. Also, they fail to recognize the overall strategy of Microsoft to unify phone/tablet/pc for the User. Microsoft has leap-frogged the tablet era and the bashers are either too stupid or too stubborn to see it.

For offline use (traveling), obviously videos and music work great and the SD gives plenty of storage for this. Also, you have complete Office to work with offline. There's Kindle for books, but the best App I have found is Next Issue which is an offline magazine app. It's a monthly subscription of $9.99 but I find it well worth it. Particularly when I'm on a plane.

The number one thing I use the Surface RT for is remoting (yes spell check, it's a word) into all of my other computers. This actually allows me to use any of my programs on them and get changed files via Sky Drive if needed. So no more lugging the laptop around, just remote in and the RT becomes that laptop.

I could be wrong because I've not tried it, but two things come to mind.

1. Price
2. Specs

As a whole package it may have been competitive on price when you include things like office etc, but people have lots of choices from nexus, iPad, up to surface pro. They were both established also, and the pro is basically a full laptop.

As for specs you could pic up a nexus for cheap with reasonable specs (talking soc etc for the price), rt just wasn't as smooth and fast as the price dictated it should be.

It doesn't matter if it's unfair or not, true or not, but they needed to release it at the price it is now.
Bit like how the cheap lumias are what's gaining the market share.
With the pro being the l920.

I'm hoping that the drop in price, and the introduction of 7-8" devices will give rt a kick start.
Also maybe more powerful surface rt 2.

Not sure if they could've released it for cheaper, but that's what was necessary.

For the record i wanted a 7-8" rt device for ages, to replace my current one, but their taking so long may end up getting a droid one.

I'm thinking maybe they should eliminate the desktop in RT. Its only use is for office; so make office an app that runs within the "metro" UI, and remove the desktop completely. It just serves to confuse people and may be leading to all the hatred because people expect that if they have a desktop, they should be able to run desktop apps.

I don't understand all the hate for the Surface either. I was working today at a Best Buy store and an older customer asks me what is the best tablet for Microsoft Word and just general use. She mentioned to me it was for her husband who was used to Windows environment. She was looking at the Samsung Galaxy tablets. The whole time I thought "The Surface RT is perfect for them!"

I swear the moment I mentioned Microsoft Surface she just literally snapped and went off on how bad Windows 8 was wanted nothing to do with it. She kept insisting on the Tab 10.1 which was $100 more and did not come with actual Office.

I was persistent and I even asked if she ever used Windows 8/RT, said no. I finally convinced her to look at it, she seemed impressed but she just didn't want to admit it. She opened Word and Excel. Her husband just gave me a blank look the whole time. Didn't get the sale. Lol.

Other than that ocassion, the RT sold extremely well today. :)

Originally Posted by Vincent Delatorre

I'm thinking maybe they should eliminate the desktop in RT. Its only use is for office; so make office an app that runs within the "metro" UI, and remove the desktop completely. It just serves to confuse people and may be leading to all the hatred because people expect that if they have a desktop, they should be able to run desktop apps.

I agree with this to some extent. Microsoft did a poor job of differentiating the RT version from the Pro version and to your point, the desktop probably adds to the confusion. However, the inclusion of an almost complete Office with the RT in a familiar desktop is beneficial. It would have been PERFECT for students except for the fact that they crippled OneNote by removing the ability to record audio/video. If they put that functionality back with 8.1 and market heavily to students they can save the device.

Also, the desktop allows a familiar environment for folder/file manipulation.

I agree with the thoughts on the price point. When the RT made its debut I absolutely knew that it was over priced. A little research & good sense afforded me the ability to recognize that so I waited for the, (inevitable) price slash. @ $350 it is a much better value when you consider the premium build quality, USB, SD, mini HDMI out, pretty good speakers, sharp display, front & rear cams for Skype video conferencing, Full MS Office support, VERY good browser with flash support, a much more fluid UI with the 8.1 preview update to an OS I already really enjoy and last but not least a very handy kickstand, overall you have very good bang for your buck. Also consider that MS is in no way going to pull support for RT; if the 8.1 preview is any indication MS is working hard to improve the platform on into the future.

The Surface just is able to do more than many of its rivals and when you consider the price it is, again, a nice package. The rampant hate just looks more and more biased & irrational with every passing day.

Why the RT hate? There is probably no one reason. I believe the the term isheep was born for a reason. I think the majority of people are ignorant when it comes to technology and follow the masses because they don't know what else to do. My wife has said to me a million times, get the iPhone cause everyone loves it. Sorry honey, that isn't a reason to pick a device.

As others have said, Microsoft got a bad name (I believe because they were big) and when a competitor (Apple) was released they took advantage of the negative publicity. Microsoft has an up hill battle but I think they are gaining ground. Revisit this thread in a year and lets see where the RT stands in the skim of things.

RT is very capable but the fact is it isn't as polished and the ecosystem isn't nearly as good as Android and iOS. There are still gaping holes, like the lack of official Facebook and YouTube apps. Plus the closed ecosystem is contrary to what made Windows successful in the first place. RT was the best choice for me and I think a lot of people would like it if they gave it a chance, but a lot of the criticism is valid.

Microsoft is trying to be like Apple instead of following the template that they used in the past to crush Apple. I don't think they will succeed unless they open up again.

Why so much hate for RT?

A complicated question with one very simple answer: Cost

The build quality of the Surface is definitely impressive. Its internals are not. Yes, everyone hates the Tegra 3, some with good reason. However, it’s not the worst thing to ever happen to consumer tablets. In fact, I remember the Nexus 7 receiving a ton of praise for its “underpowered chip”. Here’s what the reviewer had to say.

Okay, so a 35-second boot time does leave a little bit to be desired, but once you're inside the OS, applications load quickly and respond briskly, even graphics-heavy ones like the Google Play magazine app. Webpages are rendered promptly and swiping through them is snappy.

But remember that the Nexus 7 came out in June 2012. Everyone really seemed to like the Tegra 3 back then. Jump ahead to the release of the Surface RT and suddenly it’s the worst possible thing to ever happen to tablets.

So what made the Tegra 3 powered Nexus 7 so palatable and not the Surface? Probably the $300 dollar price difference!

The Nexus 7 launched at $200. You could even argue that the Nexus 7 was too cheap. That Google would have been justified if they sold it at $250-$300. But try selling the Nexus 7 at $500 and it doesn’t really work. Unlike Apple’s incredibly powerful A5 chips, or the Samsung Exynos 5250, the Tegra 3 was starting to show its age. So, $200 seems like a completely justifiable price. And to give the Tegra 3 some credit, it’s not completely useless. From the article above,

On Geekbench, a cross-platform benchmark that measures raw processing power rather than graphics, the quad-core Tegra 3 blew its competitor way as it achieved an overall score of 1,571 to the A5X’s 692.

Attachment 37785

The Surface RT is probably the best tablet to ever take advantage of the Tegra’s processing power. As I’m typing this right now, I’m running 8.1 while outputting to a 1080p monitor, using Microsoft Word and IE11 with 8 tabs open. I also have Xbox Music docked to the right and it’s streaming my music from the cloud. Hate the Tegra 3 as much as you want but that multitasking should not be underestimated. I tried multitasking on the “more powerful” Kindle Fire HD 8.9 and the browser could barely handle two tabs (it froze on me). So even though the Tegra 3 is good, it’s just not $500 dollars good. Especially not in 2013 money.

Do you remember the prices that manufacturers said their tablets were going to cost? Like when Lenovo said RT tablets would launch at 300 dollars.

A $300 Tegra 3 powered Surface RT sounded reasonable, right? NOPE! The prices for initial RT tablets were insane. The Surface launched at $500, and in many places you could only buy it bundled with a touchcover for $600+. Other RT tablets launched around the same price point. You cannot launch Windows RT tablets at the same price point as full blown Windows 8 tablets and laptops. The one advantage that RT was supposed to bring was cost and Microsoft took that away.

Windows RT’s problem is that for $500 dollars there was always a superior product next to it. Android tablets offered similar hardware to RT tablets but are far cheaper. The iPad is expensive but has the impressive A5 chip and retina display. Windows 8 tablets/laptops gave you full blown Windows and that’s just hard to beat for the asking price.

Flat out, RT tablets should have never launched above $350. That was supposed to be the trade-off that everyone was expecting. You pay a lot less but in return you get a slimmed down version of Windows that has a longer battery life and isn’t plagued with the same problems of x86 computers.

Yes, Microsoft needed to do a better job explaining the differences between RT and Windows 8. But even if Microsoft did, even if the public knew the differences, even if there was no desktop mode, Microsoft (and OEMs) were still charging way too much money for an inferior product. Plus they waited too long to drop the price. Now the Surface RT is $350 and Microsoft should do the right thing and launch a brand new marketing campaign to explain why the Surface RT is worth the asking price.

I own a Lumia 920 & Vaio Duo. Since I enjoy the Metro design so much, I decided to take the plunge with RT after the recent price cut. So far, it is doing what I have expected it to be doing. A bit laggy compared to my Vaio/Lumia particularly when reading magazines using Zinio. Otherwise, it is perfect for me. Good size as well as good battery life. I do miss the stylus capability of my Vaio though.

In addition to price issue mentioned by others, I think market confusion plays a role. By this I mean the Windows name implies the ability to use any Windows program to most people. By calling the OS Windows RT, Microsoft confused potential customers and did a poor job of explaining the difference between RT and Windows 8.

I think they should have differentiated the RT OS more clearly from Windows. Maybe call it Surface OS. Then focus the marketing campaign on strengths of this OS and how it integrates with the Windows OS you use on your laptop.

Last thing they could have done better is get the product into channel fast. There were not enough Microsoft store locations to launch a new product like this and most customers prefer to see before they buy. Microsoft needed to get the Surface into Best Buy and other partners hands much faster than they did.

Combined with more aggressive pricing and I would bet the sales would have been stronger.

I'm really glad to see that so many people are enjoying their RTs and even more glad to see that so many of them are new purchases since the price drop.

I'm not going to lie, it's a relief to see so many people enjoying the machine and to hear (from a post above) that Microsoft is still committed to the platform. I was a but nervous that I might purchase a fire sale item at the end of its support cycle.

Lack of Facebook and YouTube apps, to me, is a non-issue, considering the fluidity of the browser and its capabilities.

Anyways, glad to hear from all of you. You've put my mind to ease.

Cause RT is better than ipad or android tablets but isn't as good as full windows 8.
People wants FULL windows 8 tablet, they don't want copy of android, ipad.

For me RT seems like a good deal, but for most of people it is a ripoff.

My wife and I both have Surface RT's as well as normal computers but we use or RT's a lot more than the computers these days. 8.1 is much better on the RT, it makes is much more slicker.

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The RT platform is an iPad-type tablet with improved productivity options. Although the price drop is a big thing, there are a few other things I think MS needs to do to make RT more successful:

First: Improve access to my company office! MS got some stuff right. The inclusion of Office apps (and now Outlook in 8.1) and the inclusion of the Remote Desktop client in RT are big wins for people who want to add a little productivity to how they use their tablet. But they are hampered by the failure to include decent 3rd VPN tools needed to connect to many company networks remotely like "Cisco AnyConnect". If you can't get into your company net, what's the point? Surface Pro addresses both of these things since it is a full Windows implementation that supports current VPN apps, but RT only offers MS VPN access and very few companies use that. Many VPN options are available on the iPhone and iPad, and they need to be available on RT.

Second: Improve the ecosystem for content consumption! This is the main area where Apple wins hands down and people who call Apple users "iSheep" are simply choosing to be blind . They are showing ignorance and using derogatory labels because they don't have anything constructive to add. The short form is that the content consumption tools on Surface (and Windows 8 in general) are just not as good or smooth as those Apple offers. So here are some constructive criticisms: Although it's great that RT has SD card support and USB mass storage support, it requires a registry hack to get your library to see the content on the SD card and include it for relatively clean use in the Metro apps. You can use the Explorer and manually launch content, but that is really clumsy compared to how it works on an iPad. MS - Make the discovery and viewing of to content smoother and more consistent! Along these lines, Apple supports the playback of embedded soft subtitles. MS video does not (although there are 3rd party apps for externally loading this content). Again - it speaks to the smoothness of the process. This should also be improved.

Third: More Metro apps! So many apps just aren't there yet (many already mentioned by others) and MS doesn't seem to be doing anything to get them there. On the Windows Phone side of the house, Nokia is doing a lot to get apps ported to the platform, but I don't see the same commitment from MS (or anyone else) on the RT platform. I think MS needs to drive and publicize apps that are being brought to Metro (and RT) to show people that it is a completely viable platform. For me, right now, I'm missing things like my banking app (a major national bank), Cisco AnyConnect (VPN app), many popular games that are available on iOS and Android like "Words with Friends" (on Windows Phone, but not RT/Metro), Plants v Zombies, Infinity Blade, Civilization Revolution, Facebook, FlightTrack Pro, Lync 2010, my primary Airline app, etc. There are product categories like language education, and commercial apps (store apps) that are weak as well, but those often don't fill in until late in the game.

Fourth: If you are going to have a desktop then make it actually useful. Right now there isn't a good reason to show the desktop and it confuses people into thinking they should be able to run standard desktop apps, which they can't. This speaks to the larger, kind of disjointed feel between Metro and the desktop as well. Again, when you are using a tablet, it is all about a cleaner, smoother user experience. 8.1 preview smoothened many things, but not everything - there is more to do!

Fifth (and last): Differentiate RT! I said publicly at the announcement of RT that the name was a horrible choice that would only confuse people and I think the evidence shows I was right. People think they should be able to run standard apps on RT and they can't and it gives RT devices a black eye that they don't deserve. The name of the OS should have been different and MS should do a MUCH better job differentiating this platform for what it is and what it does well. Oh - and stop focusing on the keyboard! There are $100 options for the iPad that are better than either the touch or type keyboards MS offers. Focusing on the keyboard is not impressing anyone!

I think if MS would take even a couple of these points seriously, they would make better inroads with the RT product line.

Originally Posted by cgavula

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The RT platform is an iPad-type tablet with improved productivity options. Although the price drop is a big thing, there are a few other things I think MS needs to do to make RT more successful:

I think if MS would take even a couple of these points seriously, they would make better inroads with the RT product line.

Perfectly said. Being a fan is one thing, but if RT is to become popular, MSFT and its fans need to realise where the weaknesses are. It´s a great platform, but people want something else and to them, that "something else" is even better. That is what really counts.

Yes, you can use Office on the RT tablets, but that is not what all / most people do on their tablets. IN fact that is one of the lesser concerns of people on tablets. iOS is filled with many main stream entertainment focused apps, a very decent ecosystem (iTunes, other well integrated devices etc.,), a considerable amount of productivity apps (usually specialised for varying industries and professions) that make the iPad a perfect choice for most. Office doesn´t cut it. Being able to browse the internet doesn't cut it. Being able to stick a USB key in it, is not enough to make it a worthwhile option.

In my opinion, the Surface tablets, (more so the Pro than the RT) have the potential to be best thing since slice bread, but MSFT needs to widen their vision, they need to wake up and home in on what people need the devices for. They need to start with their app selection.

All very good points! Keep in mind that the apps will eventually get up to par as they are on WP8. In the meantime the browser is powerful and is quite capable to make up for the loss if a handful of apps.

Also keep in mind the new price point & what it was designed to do. Look at the surface PRO. No matter how many legacy programs it can run, its bulky, runs hot & is expensive as hell. As far as value for the money the RT is actually the better choice between the two right now.

There are more than a few things that can be and will continue to be improved with RT. The current chipset, while nit the most powerful strikes a pretty good balance between performance & battery life efficiency. RT will only get better and even if the hardware gets a little dated I think its up to the task of implementing the planned improvements.

The fit feel and finish of the device are excellent and with 8.1 loaded my surface runs very smoothly. It simply does what I ask it to do & does it well.

It doesn't have to be what so many naysayers insist that it should. It doesn't have to try to be something its not. Just run with what its been given & for me that is plenty enough.

I believe that the technology blogs are mainly to blame for the hate. They should have the expertise to acknowledge RT for what it is (a tablet OS), but instead chose to pitch it as a crippled version of Windows with various features not working or sub-standard. Lazy journalism wants to compare any tablets to iPad, Android, or touch-enabled Windows ultrabooks.

And because the source of many tech site's articles are other tech sites, the misinformation spreads.

I looked at the RT when it came out but price point, and the lack of Outlook in the bundled Office suite, turned me away. I'd seen and used the native W8 mail app! But with the price drop and the inclusion on Outlook in the 8.1 preview I, like a few others on here it seems, took the plunge last week.

I think MS did mis-sell what RT was. Think of it as iPad + (limited) desktop and you''ll be fine. And for me that limited desktop with Office was what held my interest. I think we will ultimately see a Metro version of Office, but given the long history of Office on the desktop I cannot see MS abandoning that. The use cases for Office currently are far too complicated to be easily replicated in a tiled environment, certainly for me.

Apps don't really worry me. I find 100% of the apps I really need/actually use and around 75% of the others. When I drew up a iPad->Surface app spreadsheet last week to identify replacements, I found a myriad of apps I'd downloaded but never used/could not recall what they were for. I do understand that apps are key for some though, but for me it's: Outlook, IE, occasional key apps, and Office in that order.

The remote desktop works well with my W8 desktop and SVR2012 NAS. And I've added a tile to do a remote WOL to the former when I'm out and about. So although the RT lacks grunt, I have access to a dual Xeon quad-core/16GB machine back home if I need some other desktops apps and, as someone mentioned earlier, transfer the results via SkyDrive. The remote app works really well with W8/SVR2012 gestures.

So ... so far so good. My only gripe, and it is minor ... I bought the RT sight unseen, and I hadn't realised just how tiny the fonts on the desktop were! They can be a stretch for my eyes.

When comparing this first generation of RT's to the first generation of iPads, RT > iPad. The newest iPad is better than the RT but people forget that Apple has had a 4 year head start on this. My largest complaint with the RT is the screen resolution. Nothing compares to my iPad 4th gen retina display. Sorry, but it's true. I will however, be pulling the trigger on the Surface Pro or Surface Pro 2 this Christmas, depending on their prices. Can't wait.

I love my RT it has done sterling service over the last 9 or 10 months since I have had it. Personally the hate generates from confusion, either in understanding what it can do or misunderstanding what it cannot.

Many of the complaints levelled at the RT are just plain stupid and even when people are reviewing they review it against an iPad. What I mean by that to clarify as this is not a bad thing but when you complain about the screen orientation because you have gotten used to the iPad screen then yes that annoys me. I remember when all monitors where 4:3 now they are all 16:10 or equivalent yet in a tablet this is somehow bad. I could go on but it is this sort of nonsensical complaining that generates the hate.

Over the last 9 months of so the OS has got progressively better and the new 8.1 release is another example and long may it continue. I am sat here now pondering whether too return 4 Surface Pro tablets sent in error and get the 4 RT tablets I ordered, that fact I am considering it speaks volumes for the RT when used in the right environment.

When I first heard about RT, I knew it was trouble. I felt the confusion already.

People are bashing it for not having full Windows apps, never mind the iPad's lack of OSX compatibility. But its not as much of a problem for Apple because they got a massive app library.

on an unrelated note for Surface RT users, how's the performance?

2 reason's I think. Confusion, RT is not windows.. and they never should have called it windows 8, they should have called it windows tablet or something. confused non-IT people are about as scary as a hoard of zombies.
second, is price, apple can charge a crazy premium, cause they have developed this mythos. Microsoft can't if they would have come out at 399 to start, they would have sold a lot better, people would be oh, well, I know i'm not getting apple, but i'm saving 100 bucks. I think the first thing would have led right to the second in the comsumer's mind, if they think they are getting windows 8, they'll pay up to 600 bucks with cover, when they are really getting, windows start menu and office... oh, and not a ton of apps.. then 600 bucks is a lot to ask, and it creates the paradox where the cosumer didn't feel it was a good deal. Apple can charge 600 bucks, cause every time you whip out our shiny ego.. I mean ipad, everyone thinks your cool, when you whip out your way more functional surface, people are like "what is that'... oh, it's NOT an ipad...

you just can charge the same when the public has that perception.

I have had an iPad mini, a rooted nook HD, a nexus 7, you name it. Performance wise with the 8.1 preview update my Surface RT runs very smoothly. Nary a stutter. I'm downloading torrents, playing games, cruising the web, multitasking, listening to music you name it. I'm using the RT the way most consumers use their android tablets. The same way iPad users often use theirs. I also have Microsoft office for productivity if I need it.

It really is astounding the animus of so many tech writers and business reporters when it comes to Surface. There were some missteps sure. Doesn't mean the platform isn't viable and can't get better. That fact that the RT is Microsoft's FIRST attempt at production of a solid tablet built from the ground up says alot. Apple has produced some true dogs in its day. The Surface RT in any kind of comparison is not one.

Originally Posted by Funky Cricket

2 reason's I think. Confusion, RT is not windows.. and they never should have called it windows 8, they should have called it windows tablet or something. confused non-IT people are about as scary as a hoard of zombies.
second, is price, apple can charge a crazy premium, cause they have developed this mythos. Microsoft can't if they would have come out at 399 to start, they would have sold a lot better, people would be oh, well, I know i'm not getting apple, but i'm saving 100 bucks. I think the first thing would have led right to the second in the comsumer's mind, if they think they are getting windows 8, they'll pay up to 600 bucks with cover, when they are really getting, windows start menu and office... oh, and not a ton of apps.. then 600 bucks is a lot to ask, and it creates the paradox where the cosumer didn't feel it was a good deal. Apple can charge 600 bucks, cause every time you whip out our shiny ego.. I mean ipad, everyone thinks your cool, when you whip out your way more functional surface, people are like "what is that'... oh, it's NOT an ipad...

you just can charge the same when the public has that perception.

just stop it. the "its not windows" crowd need to go float. It is Windows minus desktop. Just like before it Windows N was windows without media player. Desktop is just a feature.

Originally Posted by inteller

just stop it. the "its not windows" crowd need to go float. It is Windows minus desktop. Just like before it Windows N was windows without media player. Desktop is just a feature.

The thing is most people have software that they would want to run. They hear the name "Windows" and think that software will run on RT.

Apple didn't confuse consumers, since OS X and iOS are clearly differentiated.

The lack of differentiation is a failure on the part of Microsoft's marketing.

it says what it can and can't do clearly on the box. If consumers are unwilling to read or ask, I have ZERO pity for them.

Reading the news about Surface RT makes me seek. We have a bunch of people writing about what they do not know and that's damaging this device. In another hand we have Tech geeks that do not understand what is the purpose of having a Tablet and want to replace their home pc with a cheap Surface RT. And if all this was not enough, you have Microsoft calling the Surface PRO a Tablet when it's by all means a TabletPC. That created even more confusion.

Microsoft had to differentiate both platforms from day one:
1- Surface RT is a Tablet and uses Windows Lite - do not call it Windows RT, it's too confuse.
2- Surface PRO is a TabletPC and uses a full version of Windows.
With these just two lines I'm avoiding all the confusion that we got with these devices.

Originally Posted by inteller

it says what it can and can't do clearly on the box. If consumers are unwilling to read or ask, I have ZERO pity for them.

you mean zero pity for MS, as it's them that is being hurt.
Those consumers probably just took it back and picked up something else.

I can't agree more with most of you here... I do believe the marketing of RT vs 8 and differences, would have helped a lot. Over all its a great product!! I got rid of my Nexus 10 ("android fanboy")for this and it was well worth it.... I really wanted the Pro, mainly for the Performance, but for me I didn't want a TabTop or Lapblet haha......I have plenty of access to x86 hardware.... I think someone here mentioned before about RT not running legacy or x86 apps... but no one got mad at the Ipad for not running Mac apps... anyways... I won't say much more, it just gets me fired up about all the hate, I just don't understand... ok that was just a bunch of random thoughts.. However, I will state again.. I love the Surface RT!!!

Originally Posted by chrsdrshm

I think someone here mentioned before about RT not running legacy or x86 apps... but no one got mad at the Ipad for not running Mac apps...

The iPad runs iOS, not OS X, that's a difference most people already knew from the iPhone. Everybody knew that the iPad was just a blown up iPhone. This is much easier to explain to people than a Windows exactly looking like every Windows 8, but only running a very, very limited app selection.

At least I would never buy (or recommend) a Windows RT tablet, I'd rather wait for the new Atom generation.

Then there is the day in day out operation of the device. Provided that you have a fully functioning unit the performance is very good. Is it blazingly fast? No. Is it as as painfully slow at daily tasks as just about every tech & business blog/article makes it out to be? NO.

I think we can all agree that initial marketing was HORRIBLE causing much confusion and breeding a huge group of tech enthusiasts who cut off their noses to spite their faces.

The RT is a tablet. Its thin, lightweight for its size & construction. It has peripheral capabilities built in that other tablets do not offer. It rests fine on my lap or when I'm reclined in a comfy chair. The speakers are surprisingly good with good range and volume. The multitasking is very nice and fluid. There are plenty if apps to keep you engaged with more to come.

Bottom line? So many people spend so much time griping about its limitations, they totally overlook the good things it brings to the table as a tablet on its own.

I'm glad there are many of us who appreciate the device & can cut through the white noise of the techno blog-osphere. Cheers!

Originally Posted by thecaringkind

Bottom line? So many people spend so much time griping about its limitations, they totally overlook the good things it brings to the table as a tablet on its own.

I'm glad there are many of us who appreciate the device & can cut through the white noise of the techno blog-osphere. Cheers!

+1

Originally Posted by Chregu

The iPad runs iOS, not OS X, that's a difference most people already knew from the iPhone. Everybody knew that the iPad was just a blown up iPhone. This is much easier to explain to people than a Windows exactly looking like every Windows 8, but only running a very, very limited app selection.

At least I would never buy (or recommend) a Windows RT tablet, I'd rather wait for the new Atom generation.

I agree with you here. Users know that the iPad is a mobile device and don't expect it to run legacy apps. However, it has a massive amount of apps available that make it very capable. The RT can't run legacy apps, and the apps available to it are quite limited. Maybe users expect it to run anything because "Windows" is in the description? I don't know.

Originally Posted by Chregu

The iPad runs iOS, not OS X, that's a difference most people already knew from the iPhone. Everybody knew that the iPad was just a blown up iPhone. This is much easier to explain to people than a Windows exactly looking like every Windows 8, but only running a very, very limited app selection.

At least I would never buy (or recommend) a Windows RT tablet, I'd rather wait for the new Atom generation.

Well, the limited app selection will grow with time, same thing happened with iOS and Android. I would be curious with all the apps out there (iOS and Android) what percentage is actually used. I have a ton of apps on my S3 and only use less then 12, but that's just me.

The windows phone looks like windows 8 but people aren't expecting it to run all x86 applications

Originally Posted by chrsdrshm

Well, the limited app selection will grow with time, same thing happened with iOS and Android. I would be curious with all the apps out there (iOS and Android) what percentage is actually used. I have a ton of apps on my S3 and only use less then 12, but that's just me.

The windows phone looks like windows 8 but people aren't expecting it to run all x86 applications

Windows Phone doesn't have a desktop for example. I don't really think this is comparable, mostly because Windows Phone 7 was released before Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 still looks very differently. Windows RT looks exactly like Windows 8.

I don't want to say that the Surface RT is a bad choice if you have the apps you need. But if I'd want to buy a productive tablet, I'd have to buy a iPad because there are many apps in my field not available for Windows RT (or Windows Phone 8) or a tablet with Windows 8.

Originally Posted by Chregu

Windows Phone doesn't have a desktop for example. I don't really think this is comparable, mostly because Windows Phone 7 was released before Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 still looks very differently. Windows RT looks exactly like Windows 8.

I don't want to say that the Surface RT is a bad choice if you have the apps you need. But if I'd want to buy a productive tablet, I'd have to buy a iPad because there are many apps in my field not available for Windows RT (or Windows Phone 8) or a tablet with Windows 8.

I follow you, I do wish they would just get rid of the desktop in RT, I don't see a need for it. Maybe they couldn't get rid of the "desktop" with out losing functionally of Windows RT? Maybe to help out users who don't want to get rid of the desktop..... I have no idea...

I Think get rid of the desktop in RT, and explain it like a large windows phone, with full office..lol

A little off topic, I have to admit when I first used Windows 8, I HATED it... finally i took the time and watched a few youtube videos explaining how to get around in the Metro Interface and it totally changed my mind...

But as you stated it doesn't work for you and that's what really matters!..... but doesn't mean its a horrible device (not saying that you said it was but a lot of the reviews do).. That's what gets me so fired up... Anyways, I really hope Microsoft is able to change that perception, try not to be the IPAD Killer or Android Killer and just be a Microsoft Tablet...

Originally Posted by chrsdrshm

I have a ton of apps on my S3 and only use less then 12, but that's just me.

I realized that I'm similar to you in that regard. There are about 12 apps that I use multiple times per day. The problem is that about half of those apps have absolutely no replacements in the Store. A couple more have replacements, but very poor 3rd party ones.

Originally Posted by chrsdrshm

Well, the limited app selection will grow with time, same thing happened with iOS and Android.

There is a difference there though. Apple immediately had a huge market share and Android grew their share quickly too. When you have marketshare you attract the best developers. They are going to concentrate on where they can make the most money, not the platform they feel is the best or has the most potential. Microsoft hasn't hardly made a dent in the market and the quality of available apps reflects that. From what I have heard they haven't exactly made the platform developer-friendly either. So they still have a huge hill to climb. I like their vision but their execution has been terrible.

Originally Posted by prlundberg

There is a difference there though. Apple immediately had a huge market share and Android grew their share quickly too. When you have marketshare you attract the best developers. They are going to concentrate on where they can make the most money, not the platform they feel is the best or has the most potential. Microsoft hasn't hardly made a dent in the market and the quality of available apps reflects that. From what I have heard they haven't exactly made the platform developer-friendly either. So they still have a huge hill to climb. I like their vision but their execution has been terrible.

Did Google offer incentives to developers? Just curious.... Maybe that's an option for Microsoft?

I just feel like when Android was first on the scene they went though this same phase. Maybe not.. maybe I am just Imagining it.. I remember no one wanted to create for Android cause everyone was making money with apple.

Originally Posted by chrsdrshm

Did Google offer incentives to developers? Just curious.... Maybe that's an option for Microsoft?

I just feel like when Android was first on the scene they went though this same phase. Maybe not.. maybe I am just Imagining it.. I remember no one wanted to create for Android cause everyone was making money with apple.

Android did struggle a bit at first, and even today their app quality isn't as good as Apple's. But they soon gained a large chunk of marketshare which developers had to pay attention to. They gained this market share by flooding the market with inexpensive and open devices. Microsoft has neither. They do have a lot of Windows 8 devices out there on PCs I guess, however people tend to be avoiding the Metro/Modern interface as much as possible.

Just heard from news saying that Taiwan Microsoft officially announced both Surface RT/PRO would be available in Taiwan on August 4th, but no words about the price. Anyway I don't care, I already bought my Surface RT this February......

Originally Posted by cauzion

Well, this issue really bothers me too.

I have much to tell about what I think. Why this rejection on Windows RT ? There's no logical and intelligent reasons, but the fact that Apple is cool, everybody praise them and anything they put on the market will get kudos, despite its real quality and features. And Microsoft ? well, they have been perceived as "the past" and no matter how good and/innovative their product can be, press will always be skeptic. It seems that blaming MS is cool and gets clickthoughs.

So you don't think all the missing features and apps are logical and intelligent reasons for not liking RT? How about paying over $100 for a keyboard? I mean I do like mine for what it does, but to act as though it is the perfect tablet and superior in all ways is ridiculous. Yeah, there's a lot of innovation in RT but Microsoft also blew a lot of important details that make for a good overall experience and much of the critisism is absolutely valid, even if it is often overblown.

I have worked with a lot of Microsoft products over the past 20 years and I can tell you the scorn was well earned. It's only recently they have started to put a real effort into quality and security but it has come at the expense of openess and compatibility. Taking a new Surface out of the box and then having to spend hours updating it certainly doesn't help diminish their old reputation.

how much would you pay for the ipad keyboard? What you say? Apple doesn't offer one?

Originally Posted by inteller

how much would you pay for the ipad keyboard? What you say? Apple doesn't offer one?

Oh, about $50. Which is what good quality 3rd party ones cost. If I had any desire to own an iPad that is. Which I don't. If I did, I probably wouldn't buy a keyboard for it because iPad doesn't have a desktop mode you have to use to do basic configuration which is quite frustrating to navigate without a keyboard and trackpad.

Like I said, I do like my RT. But I'm not an apologist for Microsoft.

there are no keyboards for that money that are that thin or integrated, everything for a iPad looks like a folio case and doubles the thickness.

Originally Posted by inteller

there are no keyboards for that money that are that thin or integrated, everything for a iPad looks like a folio case and doubles the thickness.

No, the keyboards are not exactly the same, but that's not what you asked. They have bluetooth and can be used on other devices so they have advantages too.

Being thin and integrated does not mean the resale price is justified.

it does when there is no equal. that's what I'm attempting to tell you but there seems to be a comprehension barrier.

Hi Guys
I would like to say couple of things about this topic. I am a developer and i worked for a couple of projects with linux/unix platform, ios platform and android platform. Right now I am trying to improve my C# skills to build apps for windows 8 (Phone/Rt/8) platforms. I used various devices like ipads, android tablets etc.

Limited ability devices like ipad (for example when you are surfing web with safari, background tabs automatically closed by system to provide more free ram space) are became more annoying (for me of course.) I start using RT and i loved it. OneNote and internet explorer integration is very good. Functionality on RT is beyond that Ipad and Android base tablets.

On Android side there are some multitask experiments going on (like Samsung note series multi windows etc.) which are not sufficient enough because basically the core of OS is not optimize this kind of job. Microsoft did a better job on RT but;

Opening an app took some time, not so much choice on hardware (especially cpu, or we can say more powerful Cpu options), naming failure to separate and differentiate OS's, RT did scare hardware manufactures and so on...

These are the mistakes made by Microsoft. About hate I really don't understand why. These are just products, tools. I know to get them you need to pay for them and everybody wants to get best value to their products of course but still i can't understand it.
Note: English is not my mother language sorry for the mistakes :)

Originally Posted by inteller

it does when there is no equal. that's what I'm attempting to tell you but there seems to be a comprehension barrier.

Before claiming I have a comprehension problem, perhaps you should look at Surface sales numbers again. Consumers aren't buying your argument. Apple also uses this "they'll pay whatever we want them to" strategy, which has helped greatly to drive Android's success.

we were talking about the price of the keyboard and now we have shifted to surface sales....definitely a comprehension barrier somewhere.

Originally Posted by inteller

we were talking about the price of the keyboard and now we have shifted to surface sales....definitely a comprehension barrier somewhere.

Perhaps, or maybe just ignorance. You evidently haven't read all the reviews and the resulting discussions where the additional cost of the keyboard is a dealbreaker.

Or maybe you don't realize the Surface itself was overpriced to begin with, with mid-range hardware being sold at a greater profit margin than even Apple would dare try. I would expect you to use the same logic there as well.

But just so we get rid of any excuse for further ignorance, here are the costs to manufacture as estimated by IHS iSuppli Teardown Analysis Service:

32GB Surface RT: $271
Touch Cover: $16-18

Charging almost double the manufacturing costs is gouging in this industry. Charging over 5 times the cost is ridiculously greedy and arrogant. You can argue that Office brings more value to the Surface if you need it. You can't make any such argument with the keyboard.

Right, because it took absolutely nothing to come up with the design and development of it...it was just "poof" and a keyboard appeared.

Excellent point on the keyboard cover(s). Of course almost all OEM's gouge to some extent, (Apple and flash memory come to mind), however all things considered Microsoft priced ALOT of people who may gave been interested in the Surface RT right out of the market. It was absolutely overpriced from day one when you consider the limitations the finished product had. To justify the previous price point a much more polished product should have been offered or at the very least including the type covers may have added value for the high asking price.

Originally Posted by inteller

Right, because it took absolutely nothing to come up with the design and development of it...it was just "poof" and a keyboard appeared.

The design is innovative, but not on a technical level.

It's quite clear that no matter what I present you will have another excuse to justify it, and even if you are correct it was still a bad move by Microsoft, just in a different way. So I see no point in continuing this discussion. Have a good weekend.

Originally Posted by thecaringkind

Excellent point on the keyboard cover(s). Of course almost all OEM's gouge to some extent, (Apple and flash memory come to mind), however all things considered Microsoft priced ALOT of people who may gave been interested in the Surface RT right out of the market. It was absolutely overpriced from day one when you consider the limitations the finished product had. To justify the previous price point a much more polished product should have been offered or at the very least including the type covers may have added value for the high asking price.

it was priced the same as am ipad and does more...if it pricd people out of the market then they weren't after a serious tablet anyways. Big Lots sells $99 Polaroid android dreck for those folks.

Originally Posted by prlundberg

The design is innovative, but not on a technical level.

It's quite clear that no matter what I present you will have another excuse to justify it, and even if you are correct it was still a bad move by Microsoft, just in a different way. So I see no point in continuing this discussion. Have a good weekend.

they aren't excuses they are facts.

I also agree with many here that it is NOT cost that prevents people from buying or even considering the Surface RT. All of my colleagues at work use iPads. All of their friends have iPads, all their kids have iPads or Android devices. They mocked me initially when I got the SRT. After showing them again and again what it can do without any extra layers or additional hardware some are actually considering buying one. MSOffice free, I can plug in my Common Access Card reader to access government email, the fact I can plug my work hdd into it, transfer data for working on publications at home, just to name a few. I personally believe from the environment that I live in that it's mostly habit that overtakes reason. To break this it will certainly take longer than a single year with a new device on the market. Of course there will only be a few in the beginning. Taking those numbers to make any conclusions is suicide in this type of market. Why should I even expect numbers of units sold to be similar to a device that has been on the market for several years - goes beyond me. I do not believe MS is doing a good enough marketing job to change this sooner. Sure, they may have "cool" ads, but they are without content and meaningless. Most of the reviews I read are one-sided and I'd say many didn't even consider different environments for the device. It's easy to use cost as a reason if I don't have any other reason to give it a thumbs down.

A student who has no problems affording an iPad should not have a problem affording a SRT (doesn't matter where the money comes from). My daughter wants an iPhone because everybody in her school has an iPhone. If I hadn't tried to convince my wife to try a WP she'd probably have an iPhone as well, just like all her friends and relatives. Why should I buy anything else when 90% I know have that same device? I don't even have to do the research. They'd even think I am cheap if I bought anything else.
I also believe that going down in price may ultimately have a negative effect and the device being perceived as cheap. Habit is stronger than reason - it's not the cost that drives this, certainly not in the US in my opinion.

my two cents

Consumers these days definitely watch how they spend their money. The SRT was something totally new from a brand not known for its stellar tablet space in the market. I think folks may be a little in denial if they believe that many people do not think with their wallets. Investing as much money on a totally new platform in a tablet space already ruled by Apple had a definite impact on sales as much as the product itself. To dismiss pricing is to be a little short sighted. Apple was able to justify their own overpricing with a superior product even if it wasn't as flexible as the SRT. To get people on board initially a tantalizing price point that undercuts your principle rival in the tablet space would go a long way. Its not a coincidence now that there appears to be much greater interest in SRT now at the reduced price. People LOVE bang for their buck.

I kind of think they should have priced the typecover at 50$ and sold a the Surface with touchcover included free.

Microsoft needed goodwill for their new OS.

You all might want to check out a blog on zdnet about Windows RT. The comments were very positive for a change. A lot of RT owner wrote in and the haters couldn't get any traction. I see a turn in the attitude toward RT. A little more time and the right prices could turn this around. Here is the link OMG! They

Sometimes I think I'm a lone soul, but then threads like this make me feel better about the RT community.

I have never, ever understood the negative connotations aimed towards this device. I bought it last March at full retail, and would do so again today.

At the time, I was comparing my options. I went to Apple's website and added a 64 GB iPad, Bluetooth keyboard, and a case similar to my Nixon. The price was a hundred or so bucks higher (maybe more).

As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm a journalist and this device has just worked for me. No, I do not need to run accounting programs, Photoshop, etc. If I did, I would have purchased a Pro and been just as happy. The device is not perfect, we all know that. But, for me, it worked out of the box. Even Xbox Music has been pretty sweet thus far. I was always, and continue to be, baffled by negative reviews.

The way I viewed the Surface was thusly: a tablet built for media consumption AND creation.

EDIT: I'm on my third consecutive day of pretty heavy use and I have 10% battery remaining... I just wanted to add that bit. :grin:

EDIT 2: What the heck is with all the hate for Desktop?? Yes, using it with touch is a bit of a pain in the a@@, but you can resize the text to make it easier for touch. And I think it's to fair to say most Surface users have the keyboard... It's great to be able to do file management, tasks, device management etc. in a familiar format.

Edit 3: I had a Logitech Wave keyboard and mouse lying around the house. They use a mini receiver through the USB port. The keyboard and mouse were bought a while ago, and have not been used for at least a year. Well, out of curiosity, I just plugged it in. This also just worked. Even the little "service buttons" (not sure what they're actually called) somehow work (i.e. the little music button on the keyboard brings up Xbox Music). I also found a USB extender, so I'm going to purchase a Micro HDMI to VGA adapter and crank the productivity up even more :).

Originally Posted by CDiS99

EDIT 2: What the heck is with all the hate for Desktop?? Yes, using it with touch is a bit of a pain in the a@@, but you can resize the text to make it easier for touch. And I think it's to fair to say most Surface users have the keyboard... It's great to be able to do file management, tasks, device management etc. in a familiar format.

I don't hate the desktop, I'm glad it's there. What I hate is being forced to use it for things that should be a part of the Metro/Modern interface. It essentially makes a trackpad/mouse and keyboard a requirement for configuration and management which is just bad design in a tablet. 8.1 improves this quite a bit but there is a ways to go.

CDiS99. Good post! You epitomize the feelings I was attempting to articulate when I started this thread. When you use the device day in and day out it really is solid. One of the more annoying quibbles I constantly hear is the about how the chipset is crap. Hmmm isn't it the sane chipset used in the 1st generation Nexus 7? Granted the SRT has a much beefier OS but I don't recall too many people crying about the same chipset they way they do about it now.

The tablet isn't instant, blazing fast. However if is not slow by any calculation either. I had an HP Touchpad, Nook HD plus, Nexus 7, and and iPad mini. Depending on the application they all weren't blazing fast by any means and none of them offer the build quality and versatility of the SRT.

Originally Posted by thecaringkind

CDiS99. Good post! You epitomize the feelings I was attempting to articulate when I started this thread. When you use the device day in and day out it really is solid. One of the more annoying quibbles I constantly hear is the about how the chipset is crap. Hmmm isn't it the sane chipset used in the 1st generation Nexus 7? Granted the SRT has a much beefier OS but I don't recall too many people crying about the same chipset they way they do about it now.

The tablet isn't instant, blazing fast. However if is not slow by any calculation either. I had an HP Touchpad, Nook HD plus, Nexus 7, and and iPad mini. Depending on the application they all weren't blazing fast by any means and none of them offer the build quality and versatility of the SRT.

There is no denying that Tegra 3 IS CRAP. Memory bandwidth is horrible, and overall, it is way behind times. Fortunately for us, Surface RT doesn't need crazy CPUs/GPUs like Android to run smoothly. Unfortunately for us, the application load time is crap compared to Android. To each their own, and I'm overall happy with my re-purchase of RT at the new price, but I will certainly be buying the new version.

Originally Posted by prlundberg

I don't hate the desktop, I'm glad it's there. What I hate is being forced to use it for things that should be a part of the Metro/Modern interface. It essentially makes a trackpad/mouse and keyboard a requirement for configuration and management which is just bad design in a tablet. 8.1 improves this quite a bit but there is a ways to go.

8.1 Preview negates this, no need for desktop any longer other than office

Originally Posted by AR2186

8.1 Preview negates this, no need for desktop any longer other than office

Mostly, they still have some things lingering around. They need to remove the old control panel PERIOD, not just port more things into a duplicate Metro version.

There is absolutely no reason the control panel needs to have a desktop UI. A Metro version on a desktop would work just as well especially with the added snap functionality in 8.1.

I like 8.1 and think it answers most of the problems. But I still think W8 needs some polish on the UI part. Things like buttons, windows menus, etc should look identical between the two UIs. Right now desktop is just the Aero UI without gradients/shadows.

Originally Posted by spaulagain

I like 8.1 and think it answers most of the problems. But I still think W8 needs some polish on the UI part. Things like buttons, windows menus, etc should look identical between the two UIs. Right now desktop is just the Aero UI without gradients/shadows.

Yeah, there's other little niggles too within Metro. Like sometimes you swipe back, sometimes you have to look for a back arrow. And that back arrow is small and needs too precise a touch to work. Touch overall needs to be more sensitive, I frequently have to press twice to get it to take. I have never had that issue with other touch devices. I know it sees the first touch because I can see the "blip" on the screen. And not being able to put my tiles exactly where I want them is very annoying, a design I would expect from Apple, not Microsoft.

Some bugs are to be expected on a new OS. Others things are just inexplicable why they would purposely design like that. I once installed a major call center software product upgrade where the vendor bragged about the design team not knowing anything about the previous version and starting from scratch. Of course what they ended up with was pretty and more modern but lacked a lot of the previous product's functionality we had come to depend on. It took over a year of updates just to get it to an acceptable level of functionality and a lot longer to get it fully functioning. That's how I feel with Windows RT right now. If not for the desktop it would not be usable for me.

Originally Posted by AR2186

8.1 Preview negates this, no need for desktop any longer other than office

It reduces the need but certainly doesn't negate it. I still needed it to assign files to libraries, update network settings, look at device properties, update profiles, and even had to edit the registry just to get DLNA streaming to work. I'm pretty sure I'd find more if I set it up from scratch again.

Love,love my xps 10

Originally Posted by Vincent Delatorre

I hope the price cut of the Surface helps it become more widespread... I think it's definitely more useful than an ipad or android tablet, that's for sure.

When I was buying my L1020 at the local MS Store, I overheard one of the sales associates tell a mgr that they only had three RTs left. I personally saw them sell about ten while I was going thru the upgrade process. Yay!!!

sounds like all the whining developers better brush up on their WinRT skills.

I saw this blog post the other day and just had to exclaim "Hallelujah!" Someone finally put into words/blog form what needed to be said:

Surface RT & Windows RT REAL Review: PLEASE, Tell me WHY a Windows RT Tablet should run Windows Legacy Applications !!

...the sky has parted and the light has been let in...

certainly an interesting take from a business perspective:
Yahoo! Finance

And now this one:
OMG! They're using Windows RT! | ZDNet

Somebody better kneel over the body and check the pulse cuz she ain't dead yet!

Good yahoo article. Thanks for the link. Makes good points about a software company trying to break into the tablet space with a product that is solid on the hardware front, flexible in the peripheral & storage front and very capable in the OS front. For a first time built from the ground up tablet the SRT is an outstanding device that has gotten much better in the 9-10 months of its existence. It will continue to get better.
The overall picture is amazing when you take a moment to consider it. Its Microsoft's FIRST attempt at a viable tablet. The hardware and software are very good with the software supporting the FULL VERSION of Windows Office. The processor is more than adequate. Blazing? No. Very good considering the OS it runs? Yes.
Windows 8.1 will continue to improve an already solid product. The fact that the device didn't sell as well as Microsoft would have liked lays squarely on the shoulders of HORRIBLE marketing, and SERIOUS OVERPRODUCTION of the SRT. Overpricing the device coupled with the previous two factors add up to low sales, and a $900 billion write down on the business side.
No matter how good or bad a product may be remember that they don't sell themselves. Microsoft proved that they can produce a solid device for the tablet space. They also proved that they couldn't sell ice cubes to an eskimo.

Thanks for this Thread. I have a RT 64 with Touch keyboard. It is easy to hate Microsoft because they have a history of bad practices and poor quality, and I will just leve it to that. I am not, and never been, a Microsoft fan and run mostly Linux on my PC's, Laptops, Servers. Microsoft totally mis-marketed this device and over priced it at roll out. The hate for Microsoft and Windows 8 enhanced the the hate for RT. (I have other tablets and still like and use them also)

The only thing with Windows 8 RT that I "Hate" with it is the lack of good applications (they need more good applications) in the MS Store, which I believe will get better over time.

Like like Surface RT because:
The more I use the RT tablet the more impressed I am.
The built in kickstand makes it very comfortable to use and skype with.
The battery life is great.
I use it connected to my TV (1080P) for streaming video to my TV. The browser works great.
I can map drives to my network shares easily.
The Touch keyboard is nice.
The screen is bright and clear.
Makes a great RDP terminal, which I use to connect to my and my works computers. So I have access to all my current PC applications, make this tablet just like a netbook.

-Marty-

Originally Posted by DuncanF62

So ... so far so good. My only gripe, and it is minor ... I bought the RT sight unseen, and I hadn't realised just how tiny the fonts on the desktop were! They can be a stretch for my eyes.

I have poor eyesight, am very close to buying a Surface RT after reading this on another thread:
To customise font size on display
Five usability tips for Microsoft's Surface RT | How To - CNET

I'm seriously considering buying this, especially at the new price it's at now. I need a pc/laptop that will last more than 2 hours off the charger, so I need to investigate to see if this meets that need. I'm not worried about installing legacy or third party apps due to the fact that we have a TON of laptops in this household that are on Windows 7.

At the current price I am almost considering buying another one. I have had an RT for about 8 months, and haven't regretted. I do not really notice any performance issues. I am very happy with it.. I'd get the 64gb version though, its always nice not to have to worry about disk space!

The press keep banging this drum, but truth is I haven't met anyone who has used RT who hates it. Marketing failures do not equate to a bad product. MS will stick to this with their usual bullishness I expect which will see it through. Keep trying boys, whatever your reasons are - you can't make it a bad product just by saying it is to anyone who will listen.

Originally Posted by Leahtt

I have poor eyesight, am very close to buying a Surface RT after reading this on another thread:
To customise font size on display
Five usability tips for Microsoft's Surface RT | How To - CNET

Nice link.

Hate? Overused strong word. What is left after that?

Originally Posted by offyoutoddle

The press keep banging this drum, but truth is I haven't met anyone who has used RT who hates it. Marketing failures do not equate to a bad product. MS will stick to this with their usual bullishness I expect which will see it through. Keep trying boys, whatever your reasons are - you can't make it a bad product just by saying it is to anyone who will listen.

I thought it was crap until I came to terms with what it can (and more importantly cannot) do - I must admit I made some (I would say valid) assumptions about the device, and I was let down when they turned out to be not there ( It's for touch and not inking - even capacitive pens don't work on this thing like they do on an iPad - that and the lack of Cisco VPN almost had me shelving it.

I ended up buying a type cover and using RDP to my desktop to run apps - of course in typical MS fashion they cripple remoteApps in Windows 8 (You need enterprise version to do that - asinine MS - just enable it across the board)

So with the type cover and RDP, I do actually use the thing now.

@ all

Very nice thread and very useful insights shared .

One common statement I hear from rt owners is , the surface is great but it is not perfect .

Now what that means ? What exactly you all mean when you say its not perfect ?

I use a windows phone since launched and very happy with what if offers . Have a iPad as my tablet happy with it too , but I want to try a nokia tablet or surface rt tablet now for a change .

Originally Posted by rav16

@ all

Very nice thread and very useful insights shared .

One common statement I hear from rt owners is , the surface is great but it is not perfect .

Now what that means ? What exactly you all mean when you say its not perfect ?

I use a windows phone since launched and very happy with what if offers . Have a iPad as my tablet happy with it too , but I want to try a nokia tablet or surface rt tablet now for a change .

It means that there are flaws, which I assume anyone here could list them.

Originally Posted by offyoutoddle

The press keep banging this drum, but truth is I haven't met anyone who has used RT who hates it.

I haven't met anyone with one who hates it either, but neither have I met anyone who has one who would buy another. It's too high priced and too limited in functionality. One of my friends used his a lot... until he get a Galaxy Note II. Now his RT collects dust. Another one is a Microsoft MVP, in other fields, and he says the RT doesn't do enough to be worth it.

as I wrote in my previous post, initially everybody mocked me at work. There are two colleagues now that just purchased a Surface RT after the price drop. One of them is advocating it to others and is very impressed - makes my day when I see him in the hallway explaining to somebody else what he has and how well it works. He is a Mac person and used iPads before. He now says the iPad is a toy compared to the Surface RT, which allows him to actually get work done. He is a research group leader and is trying to get more for the branch. The tablet pilot program didn't go so well with several devices including the iPad and they dropped the idea of using tablets in the lab for now. I strongly believe that they would change their minds if they ever tried the Surface RT. For that it was a little late, but I believe in the future this will change.

The notion that the Surface RT is too expensive is in my opinion a result of the common believe that Microsoft must be cheap. Nobody has any problems paying $500-600 for an iPad but at the same time many of the same people claim that MS should sell the Surface RT for under $200. I believe that a lot are underestimating the hardware and build quality of the Surface RT and are overestimating the quality of the iPad. It has become a status symbol. To change that will take more than a year or two. I think it's a good move by MS to offer these to schools at a much reduced price and once they get some traction among students more and more people will realize that there are a lot of advantages in using the Surface RT as a homework and research tool.

Here is another pro SurfaceRT article from Zdnet: Back to school with technology's perfect tablet: The Microsoft Surface | ZDNet

If you want to see some hate just scroll down to the comments.

cool, thanks for the link.

I have a surface RT 8.1. What i can say about the good sides are:

1. Able to run office
2. windows explorer - i can access files easily
3. USB - most devices work. I can print too
4. Integrated stand and keyboard

For the bad sides:

1. It is still sluggish at times
2. IE11 is a pain - browsing through facebook website is super slow and crashes..youtube too. And many websites that are incompatible
3. apps are bad

Other than these, im happy with RT..IE11 has to be fixed though its too slow

Originally Posted by nlcbryan

I have a surface RT 8.1. What i can say about the good sides are: 2. IE11 is a pain - browsing through facebook website is super slow and crashes..youtube too. And many websites that are incompatible
Other than these, im happy with RT..IE11 has to be fixed though its too slow

try this, it sped up IE both on 8.1 and 8.0 for me especially with sites that use a lot of flash ads.
http://forums.windowscentral.com/sur...ml#post2087459

Originally Posted by nlcbryan

I have a surface RT 8.1. What i can say about the good sides are:

1. Able to run office
2. windows explorer - i can access files easily
3. USB - most devices work. I can print too
4. Integrated stand and keyboard

For the bad sides:

1. It is still sluggish at times
2. IE11 is a pain - browsing through facebook website is super slow and crashes..youtube too. And many websites that are incompatible
3. apps are bad

Other than these, im happy with RT..IE11 has to be fixed though its too slow

I can echo the sluggish part. I like top stream our home video collection from my main PC to the XBOX 360. Using an RT device is not ideal as it renders the video on the Surface then to the 360 and it never plays without caching. :(

The Surface RT is a good device, but I'll be the first to say that the performance is disappointing for a device that carries a premium price. Sometimes it takes a good 5 seconds for a tab in IE to close.

I bought mine on launch date and I love it. It does everything I need and has Microsoft office. The only thing I hate is the app selection but I mostly do everything on the web anyways. I'm my opinion its light years away from the iPad. Do more for less money

I think the initial mistake with the Windows RT was the name and the price.

1. Price - HP made the same mistake with the touchpad, which I owned and loved. The IPad can sell for it's price becuase as a content consuming device it has the content. Windows RT currently is limited in this respect. We then run into a chicken and egg situation, how do we get content without developers believing the sales potential is there. With this in mind Microsoft should have taken a hit on the initial price, the current price is what it should have initially been released for. This was they get the sales in, the user base is present and developers will produce the apps.

2. The Name - My wife runs IT for her school and she just purchased 20 Surface RTs as a result of the Microsoft education deal. The one remark all her colleagues say is that "it's windows, why can't I install windows apps??". Microsoft should have called it something different, maybe just RT, this way by name it's a differentiated product.

So my opinions on the device -

1. Lag, slowness, delay: I've been playing with my wifes for sometime and I have to say an excellent product, and I haven't experienced any issues. We all have to remember that this is a 1st Gen product so it may have a few niggles. Remember the iphone not having copy and paste, or the ipad not having true multitasking.
2. Multitasking - excellent, what can I say. We've got one other RT running 8.1, and the dual screenn mode, dual app on one screen modes are excellent.
3. Office - Excellent, not more I can say. Works really well.
4. Hardware - excellent quality, really really good.
5. Multiple User accounts and family friendly security features - For the education market this device is perfect. You can have multiple user accounts, share apps between users and it provides parental controls to limit applicaiton usage, device usaged based on time and a whole host of other features. This is out of the box, something the Ipad and Android just doesn't have.
6 Full USB Support and device support - plug in a keyboard or pendrive. Case rested.

Overall I think it's an excellent product that deserves its place in the market. It's an content consuming device, we need to remember that's the use case for tablets. Content creation, though not limited to tables, is a secondary services.

Apps .... the dreaded lack of apps -

When people say to me there's no apps my first response is, what's the purpose of apps? why did apps even come about in the first place?

Apps essentially provide a touch friendly delivery method for mobile websites or desktop applications. Now RT has IE10, it's not the best browser in the world but it is a FULLY fledged browser, with full flash experience. So for example, there is no Spotify app on RT but you can use the web based Spoitfy function in IE10. The point is for most missing apps just use the website. It works and you probably get more functionality. I will not deny that apps are better. The UI is specific to a touch centric device, but in the interim IE10 also works.

I'm very PRO the surfact RT. I think it's an excellent device. As a content consuming device it just needs more content specific to the device. This will come with time.

I have just listened to some podcasts with Kevin Tofal from gigaom.

He's not a liker of the RT and sights the lack of apps as a reason not to use it, however the guy can justify paying $1000+ for a chromebook pixel! As far as I can see (and having used one) the chromebook only has one app - the browser!