10-23-2013 10:43 PM
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  1. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I agree, the lack of space issue is an old one and not very valid, I was just clarifying comparison between an iPad and a Surface. Surface supports microSD, and I use a 32GB card in my 128GB Surface Pro for documents and work files.
    I'm not one to jump to broad conclusions but anyone who harps on the "available space" canard is either woefully informed or a pitiful troll.

    I own plenty of iOS devices and the issue of "Other" space usage, and the automatic and unremovable downloading of an iOS update image seem to be conveniently forgotten by those who point to available space on the RT. The RT supports up to 64GB microSD cards and USB harddrives for crying out loud.

    And that's BEFORE mentioning the RT's ability to support dual display!
    surfacedude likes this.
    10-15-2013 06:46 PM
  2. Adretheon's Avatar
    Yes and second gen keyboards will work with first gen Surface. Not sure if this applies to the Power Cover though.
    I know that, I was wondering about the opposite. Will first Gen keyboards work on 2 Gen Surfaces?
    10-15-2013 07:22 PM
  3. SwimSwim's Avatar
    As an outsider that didnt own RT or Pro, but planning to buy a Pro 2 soon after the launch...i gotta say the Surface 2 is pretty expensive when it comes to a competitive product to iPad. I want MS to do well with the Surface line, and i also think the Pro 2 is expensive...but its more inline price wise with its competition. The Surface 2 should be sold as a performance tablet, but priced as a tablet to gain market share and awareness. at the launch price...all they have done is set themselves up for a mainstream consumer base that will still be confused. At a cheaper price, the general consumer would probably investigate more...but since Android tabs are cheap and the iPad is the holy grail of tablets, MS is giving no reason to unaware consumers to look into their product. Surface 2 should have launched at $300-$350.
    That'd cut into their profit margins way too much. Again, I feel the biggest thing the Surface has going against it is Microsoft's stubbornness when it comes to bundling Touch and Type Covers.
    10-15-2013 09:34 PM
  4. SwimSwim's Avatar
    I know that, I was wondering about the opposite. Will first Gen keyboards work on 2 Gen Surfaces?
    Yup, backwards compatibility all the way. :)
    10-15-2013 09:34 PM
  5. hcrick's Avatar
    I know that, I was wondering about the opposite. Will first Gen keyboards work on 2 Gen Surfaces?
    Sure they will, that's what I meant when I answered yes.
    10-15-2013 10:34 PM
  6. JKing106's Avatar
    Its called profit, for $450 you're getting FULL Office, 1080P Screen, brand new CPU Tegra 4, amazing build quality, 200Gb skydrive, Skype.......yet you want more.....And you complain about "limitations" yet you want an iPad Mini 2 LMFAO.......Now that's a laugh.



    Still raping people by charging $120 for a plastic keyboard cover that costs $16 to make, charging $450 for a machine that costs $280 to make, still no ability to join domains, still has gimped non-commercial use Home/Student Office to force an up sell to the $900 "Pro" which STILL comes with no keyboard, still thinks the "Windows" brand will sell these things. Good luck with that.
    10-17-2013 08:58 PM
  7. JKing106's Avatar
    I think that in the end, the covers are in part subsidizing the low cost of the tablet. They get to advertise $449 and make up the profit difference on the cover. Same thing McDonald's does with sodas.

    The inclusion of office/outlook is real value to me. I keep a detailed monthly budget in an excel spreadsheet, and that will be handy. My Lumia 920 screen is just too small for that. And I use Word and Outlook all the time. The 2-year Skydrive thing is nice too as I have maxed out mine already and was about to pay for more storage.

    Been waiting patiently for this. One more week.



    You know a RT/2 costs less than $275 to manufacture, right? Why do people assume ANY tablet is being sold at a loss. MS could sell S2's with the soft keyboard at $350 and still make a profit. But their arrogance and petulance won't let them accept that Apple rules mobile computing. Idiots.
    10-17-2013 09:03 PM
  8. Daylife's Avatar
    You know a RT/2 costs less than $275 to manufacture, right? Why do people assume ANY tablet is being sold at a loss. MS could sell S2's with the soft keyboard at $350 and still make a profit. But their arrogance and petulance won't let them accept that Apple rules mobile computing. Idiots.
    I wonder how much an iPad, or cheap android tablet cost to make....yet they sell them for way over the manufacturing cost, you do realize that commercials, advertisements, events, the research that was put into making the device etc...all that is put into the cost right?

    A Nintendo 3DS probably cost like $50 to make yet they sell them for $200, guess Nintendo is arrogant too right?...

    Go troll somewhere else you tool.
    slowboy920, chezm and SwimSwim like this.
    10-17-2013 09:11 PM
  9. slowboy920's Avatar
    You know a RT/2 costs less than $275 to manufacture, right? Why do people assume ANY tablet is being sold at a loss. MS could sell S2's with the soft keyboard at $350 and still make a profit. But their arrogance and petulance won't let them accept that Apple rules mobile computing. Idiots.
    I sure hope you don't run a business. Obviously this product isn't for you
    10-17-2013 10:15 PM
  10. JKing106's Avatar
    Apple sells theirs for that much because they can, and people are willing to pay it. Their products are mature, their app store is mature, and most people are pleased and satisfied with their purchases. Microsoft does not have the presence or maturity in the mobile market to demand Apple prices. The $1 billion write down should have clued them in to this fact. They could have owned the enterprise tablet/hybrid market by underselling Apple with a full featured RT that wasn't crippled, but no, they tried to upsell enterprise to the $900 niche Pro.

    Who is trolling? I'm just telling the truth. The RT/Pro is a decent product that will be killed by Microsoft's incompetence and arrogance, just like the Zune was. And that's a damn shame.
    10-18-2013 12:43 PM
  11. JKing106's Avatar
    Obviously at the price they're asking for it, it isn't for anyone. $1 billion in unsold inventory is a statement to that fact.
    10-18-2013 12:44 PM
  12. slowboy920's Avatar
    Apple sells theirs for that much because they can, and people are willing to pay it. Their products are mature, their app store is mature, and most people are pleased and satisfied with their purchases. Microsoft does not have the presence or maturity in the mobile market to demand Apple prices. The $1 billion write down should have clued them in to this fact. They could have owned the enterprise tablet/hybrid market by underselling Apple with a full featured RT that wasn't crippled, but no, they tried to upsell enterprise to the $900 niche Pro.

    Who is trolling? I'm just telling the truth. The RT/Pro is a decent product that will be killed by Microsoft's incompetence and arrogance, just like the Zune was. And that's a damn shame.
    Microsoft can charge whatever it wants to as well. As you stated as long as people are willing to pay. I don't care if Apple has a mature system because it doesn't benefit me. I wouldn't want to buy an ipad because to me it's expensive but I will fork money to buy a SP2 because it benefits me. I just think this argument is getting old. Value is in the eye of the beholder.
    SwimSwim likes this.
    10-18-2013 12:53 PM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    Obviously at the price they're asking for it, it isn't for anyone. $1 billion in unsold inventory is a statement to that fact.
    $900 million is a fraction of the unsold inventory. That amount was the devaluation when they dropped the price by $150. Now, I realize it's more complicated than this, but that's the basics. But the original value of the unsold inventory was probably more like $3 - 4 billion.
    JKing106 likes this.
    10-18-2013 01:08 PM
  14. jason8957's Avatar
    Assuming it cost $275 and they are selling it at $449, That's 44% margin, which really isn't that high in the electronics world, unless you are talking about the bottom feeders. I am a digital hardware engineer that develops electronic products for a living and know how this goes.

    So, there is the question of what a reasonable selling price is and that's really up to Micorsoft and the market to decide, but... Obviously, there is manufacturing costs. There also has to be payback for NRE in developing the HW and SW. EROI can't be zero or your company can't afford to develop products. There is marketing costs, and these costs can't be zero or you would never even have access to the product in the first place. If MS doesn't market well, the product won't be developed and won't be good to you. There is sales cost, it doesn't magically appear in your lap when you pay the money, that costs money. Then, there is a sustaining cost, because you know that as soon as there is noise about GDR whatever, everyone will be clamoring on here for it.

    So, assuming your $275 cost to build, the margins are still pretty low with all the other associated costs and might even be close to break-even. For the quality of product, the Surfaces are well priced. You want to bottom feed, there are these $299 Atom tablets popping up from Acer, Asus, whomever. It is not personally worth it to me to buy a product that has been cost-reduced to the point where it barely works (had this experience with a cheapo bottom rung Dell, never again). I have purchased products like this before and always regretted it. I will happily pay a bit extra for a good, quality product over a lower quality cheaper alternative. I don't shop at Wal Mart. Sick of junk.
    chezm and SwimSwim like this.
    10-18-2013 01:08 PM
  15. JKing106's Avatar
    Value is in the eye of the beholder.
    I totally agree. $1 billion in unsold inventory is evidence of how much the original RT/Pros are valued.
    10-18-2013 02:54 PM
  16. JKing106's Avatar
    Assuming it cost $275 and they are selling it at $449, That's 44% margin, which really isn't that high in the electronics world, unless you are talking about the bottom feeders. I am a digital hardware engineer that develops electronic products for a living and know how this goes.

    So, there is the question of what a reasonable selling price is and that's really up to Micorsoft and the market to decide, but... Obviously, there is manufacturing costs. There also has to be payback for NRE in developing the HW and SW. EROI can't be zero or your company can't afford to develop products. There is marketing costs, and these costs can't be zero or you would never even have access to the product in the first place. If MS doesn't market well, the product won't be developed and won't be good to you. There is sales cost, it doesn't magically appear in your lap when you pay the money, that costs money. Then, there is a sustaining cost, because you know that as soon as there is noise about GDR whatever, everyone will be clamoring on here for it.

    So, assuming your $275 cost to build, the margins are still pretty low with all the other associated costs and might even be close to break-even. For the quality of product, the Surfaces are well priced. You want to bottom feed, there are these $299 Atom tablets popping up from Acer, Asus, whomever. It is not personally worth it to me to buy a product that has been cost-reduced to the point where it barely works (had this experience with a cheapo bottom rung Dell, never again). I have purchased products like this before and always regretted it. I will happily pay a bit extra for a good, quality product over a lower quality cheaper alternative. I don't shop at Wal Mart. Sick of junk.
    So, it's cool when Microsoft loses billions with the Xbox, and it's considered a successful product, but they can't sell a $275 product for $350 to gain marketshare because it's "made of premium parts," and "the marketing is too expensive." Really? Look, I realize you like the Surface. You bought one (or want to buy one,) and you want to defend you choice. I don't understand that mindset. I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of my choices, and don't try to justify or validate them to strangers, or friends and family, for that matter. I just don't care about their opinion of my choices. It's my money, I'll buy what I want.

    You're reading what I'm writing as trolling, or trashing Microsoft. That's not my intention. I make my living using Windows. I want them to stick around. I'm writing out of disbelief and frustration at the sheer stupidity, incompetence, and hubris of Microsoft's leadership and marketing division when it comes to anything that's not Windows/Office. They don't get it. They don't understand that no one but PC gamers, alpha nerds (you, me, and everyone on this forum,) fanboys (you,) and old IT/Sys Admin guys (me) even like Windows. They've had a captive audience for 20 plus years, and think all the grandmas and Joe Sixpacks buy computers with Windows on them because they want Windows. Wrong, wrong, wrong. They bought those computers because they were the cheapest ones they could find at Walmart or BestBuy that would let them get on the internet to use Facebook and email. The fact that they had Windows on them doens't matter in the slightest. Period. They don't give a damn about PC gaming, running Audacity, running Photoshop, or anything other that the Big Blue E to get to Facebook (or Firefox, if they're lucky enough to have a kid to install it for them.)

    Microsoft obviously wants to sell phones and tablets. They wouldn't make them if they didn't. Why is it so hard to them to figure out that they can't come to the game 3 years late, and expect to sell at Apple profit margins because "Windows." They've seen the light with the phones (Lumia 520's are selling like hotcakes. Well everywhere except America.) Will they come to their senses before they throw in the towel ala the Zune? Hell, hire me, and I guarantee I can sell more of the things than Ballmer. It's so damn obvious.
    10-18-2013 03:12 PM
  17. slowboy920's Avatar
    I totally agree. $1 billion in unsold inventory is evidence of how much the original RT/Pros are valued.
    We get. You believe the surface brand is too expensive. It's not for you. It doesn't matter how cheap or expensive something is, if we see value in it, we buy it. There are other brands out there that may suit your needs...i.e iPad. Even Panos stated, surface isn't for everyone
    10-18-2013 03:12 PM
  18. JKing106's Avatar
    We get. You believe the surface brand is too expensive. It's not for you. It doesn't matter how cheap or expensive something is, if we see value in it, we buy it. There are other brands out there that may suit your needs...i.e iPad. Even Panos stated, surface isn't for everyone
    You don't get it. This isn't about "you." It's about the success of the product line, *****. It's too damn expensive, period. It's not going to sell at iPad prices because it's not an iPad, and Microsoft needs to realize that.
    10-18-2013 03:28 PM
  19. jason8957's Avatar
    @JKing106
    Your opening paragraph is condescending and presumptuous. You then tried to tell me what my thinking is.

    I was just trying to explain pricing, not be a cheerleader or call you a troll. People seem to want to look at raw component costs when that is no where near the total cost to produce a product. I design products for a living; I see where the costs are. Just explaining that.

    If MS prices like the cheapo tablet products they will lose money and be considered crap. Why go bottom feeding and leave money on the table while destroying your brandname? It won't help the platform in the long term. Making a good product will, and Microsoft is playing a long-game, like they always do. I do doubt that MS is getting Apple's margins on Surface.

    My decision to buy a Surface or any other tablet or gadget will never make any rational, defensible financial sense anymore than my decision to buy Forza 4 did because it is just a want that doesn't serve a purpose other than being what I want; a luxury.
    10-18-2013 03:31 PM
  20. JKing106's Avatar
    We get. You believe the surface brand is too expensive. It's not for you. It doesn't matter how cheap or expensive something is, if we see value in it, we buy it. There are other brands out there that may suit your needs...i.e iPad. Even Panos stated, surface isn't for everyone
    No, you don't get it. You're making this about you. About a misguided narcissistic need to defend your purchase This is about the success of the product line. Microsoft is asking too much in an arrogant attempt to make Apple profits on a product that's years too late, with an app store that is pathetic in comparison to Apple's, and even Google's, because they mistakenly think people will buy it because "We're Microsoft! We sell tons of OEM Windows and Office licenses, so people must love us!" How many RT's went unsold again, until they dropped the price to $350? How many of those have sold? Do a little research, and you'll see the refurbs on Ebay that went for $200 with the touch cover included sold out in minutes. Why do you think that is?
    10-18-2013 03:34 PM
  21. jason8957's Avatar
    You don't get it. This isn't about "you." It's about the success of the product line, *****. It's too damn expensive, period. It's not going to sell at iPad prices because it's not an iPad, and Microsoft needs to realize that.
    iPad 32GB is $599
    Surface 2 32GB is $449

    iPad 64GB is $699
    Surface 2 64GB is $549

    Hardly iPad prices. It costs $150 less.
    chezm, slowboy920 and Daylife like this.
    10-18-2013 03:46 PM
  22. slowboy920's Avatar
    Why does everything have to be cheaper than Apple? Its not about me. So should Microsoft start lower, then raise the price later. Its a premium product and is being sold that way. I don't think the verdict is out at this time. As others have stated there is no rational to buying anything.
    10-18-2013 03:56 PM
  23. tgp's Avatar
    It doesn't matter how cheap or expensive something is, if we see value in it, we buy it.
    Exactly. A lot less people saw the value in the Surface RT that Microsoft saw. That's why they sold about 25% of what they expected to sell.
    JKing106 likes this.
    10-18-2013 03:57 PM
  24. surfacedude's Avatar
    i'm not sure why this has gone on for seven pages. even though i'm buying a surface 2 and a pro 2, both are overpriced.

    why?

    the hardware is top notch. the reason the hardware is overpriced isn't due to lack of quality hardware. it's because windows 8 can't YET offer the comprehensive experience that apple, for example, can. that's the problem. i love windows 8.1, but the apps and overall experience are still lacking on every platform. the ecosystem is still weak. that matters. if you want top dollar for your quality hardware, the software better be right better be right across all platforms.

    microsoft has a lot of work to do and they've shown they are more than capable. the surface proves they can build better hardware than apple. bing maps shows that they can bet google at something that google really perfected. and microsoft has shown they can really innovate. 8.1 is impressive, imo. now they need to get third party developers on board. how do they do that? get surface into people hands and homes! give he hardware away if you have to. when you can offer a better or comparable experience and have convinced people of that, that's when you can go head to head on price. the market is there and microsoft has to pursue it, but i'm not sure they're willing to take the short term hit in order to gain significant future market share. consider any losses an investment.
    jason8957, JKing106 and fc000 like this.
    10-18-2013 04:22 PM
  25. jason8957's Avatar
    i'm not sure why this has gone on for seven pages. even though i'm buying a surface 2 and a pro 2, both are overpriced.

    why?

    the hardware is top notch. the reason the hardware is overpriced isn't due to lack of quality hardware. it's because windows 8 can't YET offer the comprehensive experience that apple, for example, can. that's the problem. i love windows 8.1, but the apps and overall experience are still lacking on every platform. the ecosystem is still weak. that matters. if you want top dollar for your quality hardware, the software better be right better be right across all platforms.

    microsoft has a lot of work to do and they've shown they are more than capable. the surface proves they can build better hardware than apple. bing maps shows that they can bet google at something that google really perfected. and microsoft has shown they can really innovate. 8.1 is impressive, imo. now they need to get third party developers on board. how do they do that? get surface into people hands and homes! give he hardware away if you have to. when you can offer a better or comparable experience and have convinced people of that, that's when you can go head to head on price. the market is there and microsoft has to pursue it, but i'm not sure they're willing to take the short term hit in order to gain significant future market share. consider any losses an investment.
    You make some good points, but I am not sure I agree with giving the things away. With XBOX and XBOX360, the deferred reward was high-margin game sales, so could afford to go at cost on the hardware. I am not sure that they have this same model with Surface, unless it is getting it in to enterprise, which they are doing. With consumer tablet and phone sales, the money to be made is in selling the hardware/OS platform. I don't think MS is going to get rich selling 99 cent apps. But they do have a hill to climb in gaining market share and their seeming answer to that is giving away software.
    10-18-2013 04:32 PM
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