The Verge reviews of Surface 2 and Surface pro 2

Kevin OQuinn

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and yet Google forces everyone to use dalvik, ensuring that no app will ever be truly native.

So you're just going to ignore everything else I said, including the benefits of native apps, to take a pot shot at Google because I used a widely known example of the benefits of one method versus the other to illustrate the point I was making?
 

Kevin OQuinn

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But on the Surface 2/RT the choice is not between mobile sites and custom apps, it is between the full-featured browser sites and apps. In many cases (like YouTupe), the website is arguably better than many specific YouTube apps.

And also, isn't IE11 optimized to run on ARM for Windows RT? I'm not arguing that Windows RT does not need native apps, but I strongly believe that a full-featured browser with Flash support helps fill the holes when apps are not yet available. And in many cases, being able to go to the website is preferrable to an app.

Flash isn't going to be as efficient as native apps, regardless of how optimized the browser itself is. IE11 is a huge step forward in performance, though.

A desktop-class website should be more full-featured than a native app. That doesn't mean it's the best solution, though, as it doesn't address efficiency at all. The only way the browser version of YouTube gets more efficient, for example, is if more efficient codecs get supported and are then defaulted to by the browser itself.
 

unstoppablekem

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So you're just going to ignore everything else I said, including the benefits of native apps, to take a pot shot at Google because I used a widely known example of the benefits of one method versus the other to illustrate the point I was making?

We know you like Google more, as you are Android Central staff.


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Kevin OQuinn

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We know you like Google more, as you are Android Central staff.


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Being a member of the team over there has little bearing on the fact that I like the Surface 2/RT a lot, and want it to succeed. The reality is that consumers look for apps in a tablet. Saying "we don't have apps, but we have a browser" isn't the same thing at all. It might just be a marketing bullet point, but it's an important one for the target market. One that needs to be there if people are going to look at it instead of the iPad/numerous Android tablets.
 

cygnus11

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I get your argument about efficiency. But effeciency becomes less of an issue as hardware becomes more powerful.

The main reason I would prefer a native app is for the interface. If I am on my Surface RT without my keyboard and mouse, I would rather use a native app with a touch-first interface. But on my Windows 8 desktop, i will always use the browser. The website in almost all cases will provide the richest experience. So to summarize my thoughts - if efficiency is not an issue (in other words, the hardware can handle just about everything that modern websites need power-wise), the only time I would chose a native app when both the app and website are available is for the optimized touch interface.

Apps are absolutely essential on platforms without a full-featured web browser. They are definintely important on Windows RT, but just not as important IMO.
 

Kevin OQuinn

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I get your argument about efficiency. But effeciency becomes less of an issue as hardware becomes more powerful.

The main reason I would prefer a native app is for the interface. If I am on my Surface RT without my keyboard and mouse, I would rather use a native app with a touch-first interface. But on my Windows 8 desktop, i will always use the browser. The website in almost all cases will provide the richest experience. So to summarize my thoughts - if efficiency is not an issue (in other words, the hardware can handle just about everything that modern websites need power-wise), the only time I would chose a native app when both the app and website are available is for the optimized touch interface.

Apps are absolutely essential on platforms without a full-featured web browser. They are definintely important on Windows RT, but just not as important IMO.

I completely agree with regards to the desktop, but efficiency is far more than can the hardware handle it. It's also about battery life.
 

Chregu

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I think the Engadget reviews are fair, but I already predicted in another thread that most people here most likely wouldn't think so, just out of spite ;-)

Microsoft Surface 2 review: a second chance for Windows RT?

Microsoft has already proven that it can build better hardware than just about any other Windows OEM. Indeed, the Surface 2 is a top-notch product. It's thin and well-built, with a nice display, improved webcam and a generous amount of storage (32GB for $449). Still, recommending the Surface becomes harder when there are other Windows tablets that cost less and run full Windows.

Microsoft Surface Pro 2 review: a tablet that works best as a laptop

Even so, we hope that as Microsoft sits down to plan the Surface Pro 3, it focuses on building a better tablet, the same way it made the Surface Pro 2 a better laptop. In the meantime, the new Pro is much improved, but it's still at its best in notebook mode.
 

WillysJeepMan

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So the IPad is better for watching movies/videos than the surface 2? Really? So according to theverge, 4:9 >16:4, when it come to movies/videos?
I thought that the Verge's video review was somewhat reasonable but far from truly giving the Surface2 the credit it deserves. I don't know how the reviewer measures "better" regarding watching movies, but certainly in aspect ratio it would seem logical for the Surface's 16:9 AR screen would be better. But maybe he is referring to the individual apps for watching videos... Amazon Instant Video, Hulu Plus, Netflix, VuDu, etc.
 

wapoz

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I thought that the Verge's video review was somewhat reasonable but far from truly giving the Surface2 the credit it deserves. I don't know how the reviewer measures "better" regarding watching movies, but certainly in aspect ratio it would seem logical for the Surface's 16:9 AR screen would be better. But maybe he is referring to the individual apps for watching videos... Amazon Instant Video, Hulu Plus, Netflix, VuDu, etc.

Nope, he just says "great for watching movies... frankly the ipad is better for that." and moves on. A lot of the review was filled with subtle diminishing of all the features. Every time he referenced something being improved over the previous model he only said "it was improved a little", or "it's kinda good".
 

lostaggie

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But on the Surface 2/RT the choice is not between mobile sites and custom apps, it is between the full-featured browser sites and apps. In many cases (like YouTupe), the website is arguably better than many specific YouTube apps.

And also, isn't IE11 optimized to run on ARM for Windows RT? I'm not arguing that Windows RT does not need native apps, but I strongly believe that a full-featured browser with Flash support helps fill the holes when apps are not yet available. And in many cases, being able to go to the website is preferrable to an app.

Agree! This is why I am considering over the ipad. The apps are great but you miss content in the apps vs the full websites.

The ipad cannot display many websites correctly.
 

Kevin OQuinn

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I thought that the Verge's video review was somewhat reasonable but far from truly giving the Surface2 the credit it deserves. I don't know how the reviewer measures "better" regarding watching movies, but certainly in aspect ratio it would seem logical for the Surface's 16:9 AR screen would be better. But maybe he is referring to the individual apps for watching videos... Amazon Instant Video, Hulu Plus, Netflix, VuDu, etc.

At first I thought it was the apps too....

Nope, he just says "great for watching movies... frankly the ipad is better for that." and moves on. A lot of the review was filled with subtle diminishing of all the features. Every time he referenced something being improved over the previous model he only said "it was improved a little", or "it's kinda good".

....but then I realized that they may have also been talking about actual display quality. Take aspect ratio out of the equation and the iPad has one of the best displays of any device available. Microsoft even said they weren't targeting the sRGB color space. That genuinely has me baffled.

Not that the display is bad, but it's also not class leading.

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chezm

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At first I thought it was the apps too....



....but then I realized that they may have also been talking about actual display quality. Take aspect ratio out of the equation and the iPad has one of the best displays of any device available. Microsoft even said they weren't targeting the sRGB color space. That genuinely has me baffled.

Not that the display is bad, but it's also not class leading.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

From my experience retina display isn't as good as a true 1080p display. Sure it looks nice on the iPhone, but bigger screens definitely overrated.
 

Kevin OQuinn

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From my experience retina display isn't as good as a true 1080p display. Sure it looks nice on the iPhone, but bigger screens definitely overrated.

I'm talking about color accuracy, white point, etc. Measurable things that point to the quality being better.

I'd still rather have the aspect ratio of Surface, though. That just comes with trade offs is all. Ideally Microsoft will focus on improving the quality for the next generation and not just try to increase resolution. No need to do that until the rest of the ecosystem is ready.

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wapoz

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....but then I realized that they may have also been talking about actual display quality. Take aspect ratio out of the equation and the iPad has one of the best displays of any device available. Microsoft even said they weren't targeting the sRGB color space. That genuinely has me baffled.

Not that the display is bad, but it's also not class leading.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

But the iPad does have that aspect ratio which results in HD content from most providers being letterboxed, so it's not really a matter of "what if". If it was display quality he would have mentioned that the quality of display is better on the ipad, but in the text review they actually praised the quality of the surfaces 1080p screen in length. So why is letterboxed 1080p video better on the ipad vs. fullscreen 1080p on the surface 2 from Netflix or other HD streaming surface? There's no explanation for that offhand comment. In fact it was one of the things pointed out the most in the comment section of that review.
 

Kevin OQuinn

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But the iPad does have that aspect ratio which results in HD content from most providers being letterboxed, so it's not really a matter of "what if". If it was display quality he would have mentioned that the quality of display is better on the ipad, but in the text review they actually praised the quality of the surfaces 1080p screen in length. So why is letterboxed 1080p video better on the ipad vs. fullscreen 1080p on the surface 2 from Netflix or other HD streaming surface? There's no explanation for that offhand comment. In fact it was one of the things pointed out the most in the comment section of that review.

Then it must be the apps he was referring to, right?

Or he just wanted to hate on Surface.

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