More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

[chezm]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

Just trying to nail down what it is. You understand, the people at the sales counter are doing the same thing. If they are confused by what it is vs the iPad, that's a list sale. Won't matter how kick *** it is if folk don't relate to "what it is" vs an iPad, laptop, or ultra.

yes I do understand that and its unfortunate...but us here know the difference. Sales people being misinformed, uneducated or not providing proper insight about certain product differences is a reality. And if general consumer is drawn to the iPad, which is the case, then Apple as we already know has done their job well. But we know better here, so lets stop comparing iPad to Pro 2 please!

 

[SwimSwim]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

yes I do understand that and its unfortunate...but us here know the difference. Sales people being misinformed, uneducated or not providing proper insight about certain product differences is a reality. And if general consumer is drawn to the iPad, which is the case, then Apple as we already know has done their job well. But we know better here, so lets stop comparing iPad to Pro 2 please!

Agreed. Let's face it, the average American consumer is very uneducated, they buy whatever is the shiniest and has the most brand familiarity. That's why Apple dominates. Especially amongst older folk, lots of people use the words "iPad" and "tablet" as synonyms, just as copying anything is Xeroxing it or a search is Google-ing it. Windows has a very bad rep, so when people think of having Windows on a tablet, they immediately are filled with disgust.

However, people like us know better. We know the iPad is merely a play device, not meant for getting work done. We know the Surface Pro is a life solution. We know Windows has com a long ways from the days of XP and Vista. We know what great power the Surface holds. As such, it's our responsibility, should we desire Microsoft to succeed, to help break this market stigma. We've got a long ways to go, people don't like change, and most "tech blogs" only add fuel to the anti-Microsoft fire. Everyone kisses the ground Apple walks on, we've got quite the journey ahead.

It's getting better, but uneducated consumers and misinformed sales reps are going to be touch obstacles to overcome. Trying to explain to someone how the Surface Pro is both a tablet and a desktop will only confuse them. If you say it's a tablet, they will clamor it's too expensive and an iPad is cheaper. If you say it's a desktop, they want all the bells and whistles, such as a bigger screen, built in keyboard, more ports, etc. Trying to explain it's a new class of device will get them to call BS and walk away. There's just no winning here. The only way we're going to get anywhere is if we stop comparing the Surface Pro to an iPad, but sadly, the media wants Microsoft to die, so they will continue this trend.

 

[spaulagain]

The bias is heavy here. I don't care what the surface, iPad, or whatever runs. Im pointing out what customers will ask.

Telling them is "premium" or " a new class of device" might set off their bs alarm.

So we're stuck comparing it to Apple's definition of a tablet? Now that's bias. When consumer's ask what it is, you say its an Ultrabook in tablet form. There are a lot of other devices out there that compare to the Surface Pro 2. The iPad is not one of them. Other than being tablet form, they share nothing else in common. That's what you tell them.

I don't understand why a super thin PC with a touch screen is so hard for people to wrap their head around. Is it not obvious that that is where the market will be at the end of the next decade? Or are we supposed to have big desktop tanks for the rest of time? No, someone innovated and packed a great PC into a super thin tablet. And guess what, it can dock into a desktop set up, or serve as a device on the go. No need for multiple devices. Maybe its a little ahead of the market and that's why everyone is confused. It definitely fits a niche customer base right now. In the long run its where everything is heading.

I've worked in a computer retail store, these sales reps are fully capable of explaining that. They're just too lazy or too biased to make the effort.

 

[chezm]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

Agreed. Let's face it, the average American consumer is very uneducated, they buy whatever is the shiniest and has the most brand familiarity. That's why Apple dominates. Especially amongst older folk, lots of people use the words "iPad" and "tablet" as synonyms, just as copying anything is Xeroxing it or a search is Google-ing it. Windows has a very bad rep, so when people think of having Windows on a tablet, they immediately are filled with disgust.

However, people like us know better. We know the iPad is merely a play device, not meant for getting work done. We know the Surface Pro is a life solution. We know Windows has com a long ways from the days of XP and Vista. We know what great power the Surface holds. As such, it's our responsibility, should we desire Microsoft to succeed, to help break this market stigma. We've got a long ways to go, people don't like change, and most "tech blogs" only add fuel to the anti-Microsoft fire. Everyone kisses the ground Apple walks on, we've got quite the journey ahead.

It's getting better, but uneducated consumers and misinformed sales reps are going to be touch obstacles to overcome. Trying to explain to someone how the Surface Pro is both a tablet and a desktop will only confuse them. If you say it's a tablet, they will clamor it's too expensive and an iPad is cheaper. If you say it's a desktop, they want all the bells and whistles, such as a bigger screen, built in keyboard, more ports, etc. Trying to explain it's a new class of device will get them to call BS and walk away. There's just no winning here. The only way we're going to get anywhere is if we stop comparing the Surface Pro to an iPad, but sadly, the media wants Microsoft to die, so they will continue this trend.

I am sure the iPad ddoes have ways of being productive, I see tons of people at work using iPad in meetings and presentations...its a classy device that impresses the general consumer, Apple nailed the look and representation much like designer accessories. My wife wants a Michael kores iPhone 5 case for god sakes lol.

I totally agree we have a long ways to go...Surface Pro may never reach the iPads standards, in portable success but we can't deny the product doesn't have a nice picket niche...its there, MS just needs to advertise this thing properly and aggressively.

Its overpriced? Its not a blockbuster sales price but its affordable...people just need to understand the comparison to utility Tablet vs portable PC.

 

[ag1986]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

However, people like us know better. We know the iPad is merely a play device, not meant for getting work done. We know the Surface Pro is a life solution. We know Windows has com a long ways from the days of XP and Vista. We know what great power the Surface holds. As such, it's our responsibility, should we desire Microsoft to succeed, to help break this market stigma. We've got a long ways to go, people don't like change, and most "tech blogs" only add fuel to the anti-Microsoft fire. Everyone kisses the ground Apple walks on, we've got quite the journey ahead.

Like 90% of people just want a tablet to read email, Facebook, play games and watch Netflix. They have laptops or desktops provided by their employer to get work done. It's all well and good that it runs Office and has amazing keyboard covers, but nobody wants this functionality.

 

[ag1986]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

So we're stuck comparing it to Apple's definition of a tablet? Now that's bias. When consumer's ask what it is, you say its an Ultrabook in tablet form. There are a lot of other devices out there that compare to the Surface Pro 2. The iPad is not one of them. Other than being tablet form, they share nothing else in common. That's what you tell them.

I don't understand why a super thin PC with a touch screen is so hard for people to wrap their head around. Is it not obvious that that is where the market will be at the end of the next decade? Or are we supposed to have big desktop tanks for the rest of time? No, someone innovated and packed a great PC into a super thin tablet. And guess what, it can dock into a desktop set up, or serve as a device on the go. No need for multiple devices. Maybe its a little ahead of the market and that's why everyone is confused. It definitely fits a niche customer base right now. In the long run its where everything is heading.

I've worked in a computer retail store, these sales reps are fully capable of explaining that. They're just too lazy or too biased to make the effort.

When the reps explain this correctly, the consumer will go "oh yeah, but see I just wanted a tablet to watch Netflix and play games on... I have the office laptop for Excel. I think I'm just going to buy an iPad."

 

[hcrick]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

Sounds familiar.

"I just want a phone to make calls, I already have a laptop for emails and internet."
"I just want a phone to check emails and surf the web, I already have a camera."
"I already have a GPS, don't need it or mapping in my phone."


We all know how that turned out. Nothing wrong with consolidation of devices if convenience and functionality is maintained or improved.

 

[SwimSwim]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

What hcrick said, what's wrong with the consolidation of devices?

Sure most have a tablet for their Facebook, games, books, movies, etc. and a laptop for work, but why not one? We used to have a separate gaming device, camera, GPS, notepad, daily planner, etc., and like hcrick said, most people were fine with this. But just like how the old CRT TVs were, "good enough," once people saw HDTV, they were blown away and just had to have it.

Why wouldn't the same hold true for the Surface Pro? Sure, most are content right now with a separate work and play device, but once they see how convenient it is to have both seamlessly and innovatively united on a single device, well, then I think people will desire it. But don't ask me, I think this little girl says it best,

 

[Daylife]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

OK, so if the surface isn't a tablet , is it a laptop now? Ultra portable? What are we gonna compare it to ?

This isnt rocket science bro........Surface RT compare it to iPad/Android tablets.....Surface Pro Compare it to laptops and ultrabooks....whats so hard about this?

 

[spaulagain]

When the reps explain this correctly, the consumer will go "oh yeah, but see I just wanted a tablet to watch Netflix and play games on... I have the office laptop for Excel. I think I'm just going to buy an iPad."

Then fine, the iPad, Surface 2, or any other limited tablet will be best for them. But maybe their laptop is getting old or having problems. Maybe they will see it as an opportunity to upgrade and just have one device. Maybe they think they can sell their laptop which would cover half the price or more of the Surface Pro 2 and make it cheaper than an iPad.

Consumers have hidden needs/wants that they often don't even know they are missing. So when someone explains to them various options they might realize that feature would solve subconscious desires and be really nice. 80% of product design and marketing is showing a consumer how the product fulfills a need they didn't even know they needed until you showed it to them. That's what the Surface Pro 2 does.

Like Daylife said, this isn't rocket science. The past decade has seen all kinds of products flourish from unknown wants/needs.

 

[Mike Gibson]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

I don't understand why a super thin PC with a touch screen is so hard for people to wrap their head around. Is it not obvious that that is where the market will be at the end of the next decade? Or are we supposed to have big desktop tanks for the rest of time? No, someone innovated and packed a great PC into a super thin tablet. And guess what, it can dock into a desktop set up, or serve as a device on the go. No need for multiple devices. Maybe its a little ahead of the market and that's why everyone is confused. It definitely fits a niche customer base right now. In the long run its where everything is heading.

I wonder if that is truly the future. I used to think so (i.e. Surface Pro type device that docks for productivity and undocks for consumption/mobile usage) but I'm beginning to think that one of two other scenarios are more likely:

1. Dockable "computer" module that docks into various dumb screens that contain power and HIDs. The module would contain the CPU+GPU and local SSD storage. If you think about it, in a few more generations of CPUs a module the size of a smartphone could contain everything necessary to hold your "computing environment" and be powerful enough to do both consumption and production. My Samsung Series 7 Slate already serves as a VS2012 dev environment for my WP8 app. Performance is surprisingly good. How much of that tablet is devoted to my "computing environment" and how much is dedicated to power and human interface devices (screen, mouse, keyboard, etc.)? Almost all of the physical mass is devoted to the HIDs.

2. A smart terminal model where your data is in the cloud and you access it with various physical devices, each with its own CPUs, GPUs, HIDs, etc. That's the way Google, Apple, and others want to go. I don't like this scenario because it ties you to unreliable networks, which will always fail at the worst possible moment. You also have to deal with the potential for huge data transfer costs, slowness, local-remote synchronization, etc. I prefer to be able to segregate my data files into roaming and local classes. For example, right now I'm working with several GB of satellite imagery. It would be impractical to deal with that in the cloud. Of course, the advantage to the cloud approach is that your data is (hopefully) professionally managed/backed up/etc.

That's the way I see the battle shaping up in the future. Do we want separate computing environments linked together by the "cloud" or do we want one portable computing environment that links to various HIDs? Right now we're stuck in this transition period where we all have data scattered between local and cloud storage with multiple standalone devices to access/manage it.

Neither one of these scenarios handles every situation perfectly. For me personally I like the single computer connected to various HIDs along with a clean separation in storage classes, i.e. I want local-only, lazy-synced, and cloud-only storage.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

 

[tgp]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

80% of product design and marketing is showing a consumer how the product fulfills a need they didn't even know they needed until you showed it to them.

That is correct, and that is exactly what Apple excelled at under Steve Jobs.

 

[spaulagain]

Neither one of these scenarios handles every situation perfectly. For me personally I like the single computer connected to various HIDs along with a clean separation in storage classes, i.e. I want local-only, lazy-synced, and cloud-only storage.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

I think we'll end up with both.

90% of computer users only need what an iPad or Surface 2 provides them. For the occasional work on word, excel, or photo editor they can do that easily. And keeping files, settings, etc synced over the cloud will be very convenient for them.

The 10% of us that need serious power for development, designing, etc. will use a computer module like you stated. The Surface Pro 2 fits that scenario. A serious computer that you can dock into stations and keeps the big files locally on the device, not the cloud. These docking stations can also be "boosters" with extra RAM via USB 3.0 or hard connected.

I'm personally thinking seriously about replacing my desktop with a Surface Pro 2. Especially if I can expand the RAM via USB through the docking station.

 

[thecaringkind]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

You know what's interesting? Most shoppers. Most consumers? COMPARE EVERYTHING. Fairly or not. That's what consumers do when it comes to their choices and how they spend their dollars. Sure the Surface line is somewhat unique in its versatility and overall capabilities. People like to place things in catagories that they can easily digest and relate to. The Surface covers alot of bases and if not marketed carefully confusion will be a natural result among the general buying populace.

The iPad is seen as the penultimate in tablets. the Holy Grail so to speak. So ANYTHING in the tablet space is inevitably compared to it. Its just the nature of the beast. Along those lines, the iPad has always been overpriced too, however due to its excellent design and almost bulletproof app ecosystem, it still shines and retains value as a consumer tablet. The Surface 2 can do much much more from a productivity standpoint and that increases its value. If people are willing to drop about $600 for a Surface 2 and type touchcover then so be it. Right now, I personally cannot justify spending that kind of money for a device that has Office as one of its principle selling points backed by a slowly improving app ecosystem. The design and chipset are both fine, the ability to multitask is great and so are many other features of the Surface. Would I buy it as a tablet over an iPad? Absolutely!

I just continue to have issues with Microsoft trying to lure people over to the Surface in a super crowded tablet space at its current price point. $450 for the tablet alone? OK. You tout how great the type covers are and how much more you can do productivity-wise with the cover attached, then BUNDLE it, (at least the touch cover), with the tablet and watch the sales numbers improve significantly.

Say they sell the Surface 2 with the Touch cover at a flat $500. SOLD. And before anyone starts talking profits and margins, I DON'T care. Microsoft has a license to print money and I think they can deal with paper thin margins when it comes to Surface if it means gaining significant market share by any measure, especially in the tablet space.

I have no strong feelings about the Pro. To me its a pricey laptop hybrid. Not interested.

 

[chezm]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

I have no strong feelings about the Pro. To me its a pricey laptop hybrid. Not interested.

this is a Surface Pro 2 message board, not a surface 2 or iPad...although what's up for discussion is how nonsensical comparing a barebones tablet is to a portable PC.

How is it a pricy laptop hybrid when all other devices with similar specs coat almost the same? Again, MB Air as an example.

You have no need for a ultratablet/ultralaptop...and prefer spending the money on a tablet with limited OS...and that's fine. We don't care if Pros not going to sell half as well as iPads...we don't care about sales...we care about the product that suits our needs...not the general consumers needs. Why has this become so difficult to point out?...

Pro =/= iPad, and vise versa

Completely different demographics

Completely different groups of people

 

[chezm]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

I'm personally thinking seriously about replacing my desktop with a Surface Pro 2. Especially if I can expand the RAM via USB through the docking station.

If i didn't need my 1010Lt the pro 2 would be a replacement for my PC....its specs are more than my desktop...its portable...its everything I've wanted in a mobile desktop...again, just the 1010lt but I'll definitely be looking for a replacement.

 

[SwimSwim]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

That is correct, and that is exactly what Apple excelled at under Steve Jobs.

Aye, Steve Jobs was a great man, a true visionary and innovator. Shame he assed before his time. While I loathe him for starting a cult like group of fanboys that's even more annoying than teenage girls obsessed with Justin Bieber, he really did make some real market innovations that changed the world. It's incredible to think now different our lives would be if it weren't for him. He's truly a man for the history books.

 

[slowboy920]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

You know what's interesting? Most shoppers. Most consumers? COMPARE EVERYTHING. Fairly or not. That's what consumers do when it comes to their choices and how they spend their dollars. Sure the Surface line is somewhat unique in its versatility and overall capabilities. People like to place things in catagories that they can easily digest and relate to. The Surface covers alot of bases and if not marketed carefully confusion will be a natural result among the general buying populace.

The iPad is seen as the penultimate in tablets. the Holy Grail so to speak. So ANYTHING in the tablet space is inevitably compared to it. Its just the nature of the beast. Along those lines, the iPad has always been overpriced too, however due to its excellent design and almost bulletproof app ecosystem, it still shines and retains value as a consumer tablet. The Surface 2 can do much much more from a productivity standpoint and that increases its value. If people are willing to drop about $600 for a Surface 2 and type touchcover then so be it. Right now, I personally cannot justify spending that kind of money for a device that has Office as one of its principle selling points backed by a slowly improving app ecosystem. The design and chipset are both fine, the ability to multitask is great and so are many other features of the Surface. Would I buy it as a tablet over an iPad? Absolutely!

I just continue to have issues with Microsoft trying to lure people over to the Surface in a super crowded tablet space at its current price point. $450 for the tablet alone? OK. You tout how great the type covers are and how much more you can do productivity-wise with the cover attached, then BUNDLE it, (at least the touch cover), with the tablet and watch the sales numbers improve significantly.

Say they sell the Surface 2 with the Touch cover at a flat $500. SOLD. And before anyone starts talking profits and margins, I DON'T care. Microsoft has a license to print money and I think they can deal with paper thin margins when it comes to Surface if it means gaining significant market share by any measure, especially in the tablet space.

I have no strong feelings about the Pro. To me its a pricey laptop hybrid. Not interested.

I agree consumers should compare products, but ONLY products that are inline with each other. As stated numerous times, different products for different consumers. Microsoft is trying to lure consumers to the surface line because that is how a business operates. I don't believe bundling the keyboard will improve sales. Microsoft has to market the surface in "layman's terms"

 

[ag1986]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

Then fine, the iPad, Surface 2, or any other limited tablet will be best for them. But maybe their laptop is getting old or having problems. Maybe they will see it as an opportunity to upgrade and just have one device. Maybe they think they can sell their laptop which would cover half the price or more of the Surface Pro 2 and make it cheaper than an iPad.

Consumers have hidden needs/wants that they often don't even know they are missing. So when someone explains to them various options they might realize that feature would solve subconscious desires and be really nice. 80% of product design and marketing is showing a consumer how the product fulfills a need they didn't even know they needed until you showed it to them. That's what the Surface Pro 2 does.

Like Daylife said, this isn't rocket science. The past decade has seen all kinds of products flourish from unknown wants/needs.

I just don't think the Surface (any Surface, even the Pro) is a replacement for a laptop. 10" screen - do not want. Type Cover is not rigid enough, point of attachment feels breakable - do not want. Touch Cover - Abomination, most definitely do not want.

 

[ohgood]

Re: More CNET bias - Surface Pro 2 "Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad can get pretty ugly"

When the reps explain this correctly, the consumer will go "oh yeah, but see I just wanted a tablet to watch Netflix and play games on... I have the office laptop for Excel. I think I'm just going to buy an iPad."

Yes, that's my point. Im not trying to convince anyone of what it needs to be compared to. Call it a laptop, tablet, ultra, whatever.

The consumer isn't looking for a spreadsheet, they want "play, fun and fast", why not market it as such?