01-01-2018 02:24 PM
46 12
tools
  1. wynand32's Avatar
    Like a keyboard, inking has grown beyond pass or fail but whether it works or not. If you want to go full digital, you can. There's OneNote, Windows Ink, and a host of drawing applications that can satisfy just about every situation. Even Edge has a built-in annotation feature. Now it's just up to personal preference and the underlying hardware (Which, IMO, Surface succeeds at).
    I think this is pretty close to the truth. I don't see it as Microsoft trying to replace paper, but rather providing digital tools with a range of capabilties that people can use or not. It's simply a way of making a product appeal to a wider set of buyers.
    HeyCori and ChrisHistorian like this.
    12-27-2017 12:19 PM
  2. wynand32's Avatar
    Incidentally, Microsoft has been producing tools that can replace paper for far longer than Surface has been around. The previous Windows Tablet PC initiative offered the same kinds of tools as Surface does today, only with lesser technology and versions of Windows that didn't have inking baked in as seamlessly as does Windows 10.

    The Tablet PC initiative "failed" because that's all it was -- a set of add-ons to Windows and special hardware that added cost and bulk. With Surface, adding inking capabilities is more trivial in terms of both cost and weight, and so it's something Microsoft can offer without much penalty if people choose not to use it.
    HeyCori and ChrisHistorian like this.
    12-27-2017 12:22 PM
  3. EspHack's Avatar
    it didnt fail, just like every "attempt" before it, its up to you to use it or not, I dont use paper at all, I dont remember the last time I used it for other than marking answers on a test

    same as with credit cards and cash, legacy voice calls and voip, there's always a bunch of elements that wont "progress" and not even until it makes economic sense, but until it is outright unfeasible to continue doing so, when paper gets significantly costlier to use, only then will those elements stop using it

    and I said all that in the context of every use for paper except for drawing, drawing is just another thing entirely, for everything else, a 50$ tablet like the nuvision 8" can already replace your entire backpack as long as you decide you want to do so, and thats if you want it on a familiar size, because just about any phone can do it too
    12-27-2017 12:42 PM
  4. jacksd's Avatar
    Did Mastercard and Visa "fail" with credit cards because people still use cash after 30 years? Did Amazon "fail" with e-readers because people still read paper books after 10 yr? Using a digital pen is just an option, like these other examples, and is not meant to "eliminate" paper. The author is choosing to twist words and form his own opinions in order to slam Microsoft when the company hasn't met his own expectations.
    12-27-2017 12:49 PM
  5. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    I really do think Microsoft missed a trick with Windows 10 and Ink, they put the focus on Wacom/Ntrig only as a way to Ink/Draw/Doodle/Note with a pen. They also turned up their nose on Mobile Ink ( yes plans were in the works, but killed off), all be it a small market but they really could have given Samsung Note a run.

    If anything I have proven that you can Ink on mobile, doodle, take a note with hardware that was not built to use pen.
    They could have offered up a much cheeper Active stylus or partnered with a company like Adonit and shown a budget way to note.

    Yes if you do Graphic Arts/Drafting or require a high level of control go Surface and Wacom/Ntrig, but for the rest of us who are not artists or draftsmen an Active Stylus matched to a lower cost Windows Device is bloody good !!!

    My stylus and my Acer Jade Primo is not top of the line as it's only a Snapdragon 808, but it can sure take notes and work for doodles!!
    wp_ss_20171127_0001.jpgwp_ss_20171127_0002.jpgwp_ss_20171127_0003.jpgwp_ss_20171208_0004.jpg

    My Acer W3 Tablet, Intel Atom based cheep hardware that didn't get the best review from Dan here, under Windows 10 with support for Ink is good enough for my needs using the same active stylus.

    Give consumers some options and let them find what they need, at the very least you may have held on to more mobile users and not had to raise the white flag as quickly as they did.

    Microsoft is not the best when it comes to thinking outside the box, the old saying is true there is more then 1 way to skin a cat !!!!!!
    Noshaba Khatoon likes this.
    12-27-2017 01:09 PM
  6. Wevenhuis's Avatar
    I the question here is where microsoft stands today with the pen&ink, and tablet experience for that matter, today. This compared to say 5 years, but also to more than 15 years ago.

    Having use digital ink on windows tablet devices over the last 15 years, I think Microsoft is making a progress. I however, have noticed a dip in further development of windows ink and ink-to-text conversion as a more natural real pen-and-paper replacement. True, in its current form, windows 10 is getting closer to that state, but windows 8 didn't fit well with real world day to day use, which meant windows 10 needed a slight overhaul, this time putting mouse and keyboard first, again. I think if windows 8 was allowed to continue its next iteration, we would have had a more immersive inking experience. The problem with windows 10 is still a lot of compartimentilization. It's no short of amazing from a software engineering experience, but I do think windows 10 falls behind in the immersive design. I think if the stylus with inknig, inline, everywhere the workflow experience would be a truer and more natural digital inking and ink-to-text conversion experience. For me the handwriting pad is a clear example. While a useful -tool-, the experience is still a stylus as a tool. I actually have to press buttons in many apps to operate and activate the pen. The handwriting pad only supports a single line to write on for ink-to-text conversions. And it doesn't even support mat-to-text conversions. For that Microsoft build a completely separate tool. But we had that over 5 years ago too. It was called the math Pad back then, before even the first surface on the market. the handwriting pad was there, too. By now surely they can both be integrated in the same tool, right? They are both over 10 years old. No, what I am missing is the immersive experience. OneNote, that is an immersive experience, Nebo is a great example of an immersive ink-to-text conversion experience, or even the handwriting pad. But the latter should be part of windows ink. So as soon as the app is on a textbox or text field, the user can immediately write on it, without needing an intermediary solution like a Handwriting pad or a Math pad. I think they could have done it more elegantly, for example by integrating a universal inline inking experience everywhere in the OS, simply by coupling it to the tablet mode. Desktop mode for mouse and keyboard, tablet mode for enhanced touch and pen experience. I think they still can do quite a lot with windows 10, when it comes to more immersive and productive workflow by a more seamless input experience with the OS and apps. Development continues, but I think development has, of late, taken a (hopefully temporary) back seat, to offset a different roadmap agenda.
    12-27-2017 05:12 PM
  7. Noshaba Khatoon's Avatar
    it will continue to be a failure until and unless Microsoft allows people to actually buy these devices. if people here can buy iPad pros, why does Microsoft have to always delay or completely deny is New product from being launched here? i cannot buy a surface book, or surface laptop, or even the surface pen. even though i want to. if people who want to use the device are denied the opportunity to buy the device how do you expect the people who do not use any such touch screen or inking device to buy any more touchscreen surface device or any other manufacturer device
    12-28-2017 12:59 AM
  8. Byrese's Avatar
    I disagree with your premise. I've owned a Surface since for the past 3 plus years (SP3 and SP4) and watched numerous commercials and never saw it marketed as a paper substitute, like say the Remarkable Tablet. I saw it marketed as a 2 in 1 (computer and tablet replacement) which is what so many ppl, including myself, used it as. But never the former.

    So I don't think it's a failed device. In fact, I see more and more of them all the time.
    12-28-2017 01:48 AM
  9. giganotosaurus's Avatar
    Microsoft launched its first Surface device in 2012 and with it, aimed to revolutionise the way we write and draw besides providing us with a powerful computing experience on a smaller form-factor. After 5 long years and numerous updates, it succeeded in the later but failed in other aspects. I say this because I have seen very few people using Surface to write and draw. I myself do not enjoy writing on it because of the lag issues.

    There are devices like “DOMO nScribe Scribble Pad” that are not only thinner and lighter, but offers better writing experience than Surface. However, they have limited features and not particularly a game changer.

    I think Surface Pro needs further improvements if it wants to dethrone paper.

    What do you think? Do you use Surface Pro to write and draw?
    What lag? I don't use paper at all. There is a wonderful software called sketchpad which I use to doodle and draw stuff. I have no idea it is so bad.. A lot of it is just perception and people parroting what they hear. It is not the best but I get a lot done with the surface book that I have and I also draw, design furniture. It is awesome. It is also my work machine. My friend who is anti Microsoft and believes that touch is useless has a MacBook pro and iPad pro to do the things I do with my surface. It is not a failure at all. If it were Apple it would be 10 times more successful. People don't think too much
    12-28-2017 02:40 AM
  10. allanwith's Avatar
    I absolutely agree with your last statement: that it needs improvement:) - and to me, that is the main point of your post, not that inking as such has failed.

    We’re in a pretty good spot on the hardware side, such as latency, tilt, sensitivity, tips, etc. but obviously always room for improvement. The rumored Andromeda device would increase visibility for inking but I am not sure if that’s the thing that would bring inking to the mass market. They could also bring out cheaper Surface Hub devices or even allow 3rd parties to make them. Or how about actually utilizing the Surface Pro that is already part of Skype Meeting Room systems and allow people to ink on it? Anyway, the hardware side at this point is not the weak spot.

    It’s on the software where I think the biggest need for improvement is, most notably in terms of killer apps. Things are definitely happening on this front as well. Support in the OS itself is getting pretty good and I like the small improvements that are coming in the Office 365 ProPlus applications on a steady pace. I am looking forward to the Whiteboard app and definitely would like to see more and bigger strides like that.

    One thing they could do is take the Sticky Notes app and make it possible to collaborate on notes. It could even be combined with the Whiteboard app to allow for sticky notes to be placed on the Whiteboard. This would allow people with mouse and keyboard contribute to a Whiteboard as well. OneNote, ironically, and Visio are other applications with a lot more potential for inking than what we have seen so far. Inking support in those applications mostly seem built for the Wacoms of the world.

    So to sum up, I feel like we need some real killer apps and just in general some bigger strides in terms of software and applications - and where is all of the support that Adobe promised? Where are 3rd parties just in general?
    12-28-2017 04:58 AM
  11. jm2c's Avatar
    I haven't used paper much since I got the first Surface Pro so it's been working okay for me.

    I don't use a Surface product anymore due to constant reliability issues (flickergate.com), but during the period where my devices worked I loved it. I think Microsoft can improve on their pen accuracy, but it's an otherwise usable pen. Not nearly the best, but adequate. Somehow I feel their Pen experience has degraded rather than improved though. The SP1 Wacom pen was still my favorite.

    Windows Ink is good, but can be better. I only wish for Microsoft to keep developing it and not drop the ball like they have with so many other endeavors.

    I use a Samsung Galaxy Book 12 and Galaxy Note 8 now and enjoy using the pen on both. I'm a big proponent of inking. I don't think I would consider any device without an active pen. It's very nice to be able to write on the screen to take notes and very fun to be able to draw as much as I want without using up paper/ink/paint/erasers/etc.
    12-28-2017 06:10 AM
  12. Wan Firas's Avatar
    I think it will take a lot of time to mature the N-Trig (Windows Ink) technology. When they switch from Wacom to N-Trig digitizer, it's like moving backward 10 years back. Many art people complain because we're used to the Wacom advanced technologies (the ergonomic pen, the feel of the nib, the hover & click function, seamless radial menu, the dedicated buttons, the matte screen, just to say a few that I notice).

    However, I'm trying my best to use my SP4 as much as I can so that MS will have more data/feedback to improve. Surface is a real convenience for mobility. Like drawing while relaxing at a café or on a couch at home or even while lazily crouching in my bed.
    12-28-2017 06:38 AM
  13. naddy6969's Avatar
    A $1,000 gadget is no replacement for a $5 pack of paper and some pencils. No one ever said Microsoft - or anyone else - is “trying to replace paper”.

    Silly premise, silly conclusion.
    Byrese and TgeekB like this.
    12-28-2017 10:15 AM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    Not giving up my Lamy 2000 and Clairefontaine tablet for any electronic device.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    12-28-2017 06:21 PM
  15. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Not giving up my Lamy 2000 and Clairefontaine tablet for any electronic device.
    Sweet pen! ✒️ What nib do you use, and what is your favourite ink?
    12-28-2017 09:42 PM
  16. anonius's Avatar
    Satish, no one is trying to replace paper! Everyone, on the other side, many people are trying to create medium with properties similar to paper, but transferable electronically. Of course, you can scan piece of paper and send it electronically. So, what's the point at all? Let's give up at once.

    But if we must go along that electronic line, let's remember that it took millenia to create present paper and pencil, and they have been undergoing constant improvements even nowadays, in era of electronic, e.g. think about Kuru toga mechanical pencil. It will take some time to create electronic equivalent of paper and pencil and it will make in the process many people, like yourself very unhappy. Exactly like traditional paper and pencil makes many people unhappy.

    Let's be positive and take the best approach to new developments.
    12-28-2017 10:59 PM
  17. TgeekB's Avatar
    Sweet pen! ✒️ What nib do you use, and what is your favourite ink?
    I have a fine nib in it and currently using Montblanc Midnight Blue ink.
    I have a collection of fountain pens from Sheaffer, Pelican, Parker, etc. but still love my trusty Lamy 2000. It just writes perfectly.
    fatclue_98 and Laura Knotek like this.
    12-29-2017 05:30 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I have a fine nib in it and currently using Montblanc Midnight Blue ink.
    I have a collection of fountain pens from Sheaffer, Pelican, Parker, etc. but still love my trusty Lamy 2000. It just writes perfectly.
    I still have my brushed aluminum Parker with the gold clip from when I was in high school. The new gel refills are junk, the pen doesn't feel right.
    TgeekB and Laura Knotek like this.
    12-29-2017 06:09 PM
  19. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    Difficult to really say but I can tell you I rarely use my Surface Book as tablet. I also have a Note 8 and Samsung Tab S3. I can say I use the Stylus on the Note 8 often and with OneNote and then go back to my Surface Book to look at my notes in OneNote. I find use in inking but I could live without it. So wondering if Inking in general is ever going to catch on?
    Do you think that stylus of Note 8 (I guess it's called S pen) offers a better writing experience? I once used it and felt it was better than Surface pen.
    12-30-2017 06:02 AM
  20. techiez's Avatar
    Do you think that stylus of Note 8 (I guess it's called S pen) offers a better writing experience? I once used it and felt it was better than Surface pen.
    S-Pen is based on WACOM tech. while surface pen is based on Ntrig, S-pen feels more natural with tilt and found it to be accurate and responsive as compared to surface pen.
    01-01-2018 12:16 PM
  21. Byrese's Avatar
    S-Pen is based on WACOM tech. while surface pen is based on Ntrig, S-pen feels more natural with tilt and found it to be accurate and responsive as compared to surface pen.
    Ya...i have a Surface and had a note 5. I feel like the Surface is much more natural of an experience.
    01-01-2018 02:24 PM
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