06-13-2014 06:38 PM
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  1. vlad0's Avatar
    Here is the full Intel presentation from Computex.



    The talk on Core-M, which is what concerns most of us here since it will probably end up in the next generation (or an update to sp3) surface, start at the 20 minute mark.

    It allows for a much slimmer/lighter designs, better battery life, and most importantly fanless designs which might finally silence the critics of the fan based Surface products to date.
    WanderingTraveler and onysi like this.
    06-11-2014 02:05 AM
  2. Chregu's Avatar
    It allows for a much slimmer/lighter designs, better battery life, and most importantly fanless designs which might finally silence the critics of the fan based Surface products to date.
    It will probably also be less powerful than the current i5 and i7 processors that are in the S3P. If it is true what I've read it's something between an Atom and a Core. Still very neat for tablets, but maybe not the same level of desktop replacement.
    06-11-2014 04:11 AM
  3. jordanzhninja's Avatar
    That 2-in-1 with the hinge kicks the surface in the balls. No kickstand but it stands up like that? Omg
    Surface has got work to do in the 4th gen
    06-11-2014 07:30 AM
  4. Poirots Progeny's Avatar
    Agreed, those core mobile ("m") chips are not going to be in the same league as the I series chips in the sp 2 & 3.

    But then they're not meant to be. This is Intel attempting to stomp on arm, Qualcomm et al. And it runs proper windows, so renders rt moot. Which is probably the way msft is heading, with os convergence across platforms.

    These m processors should be a step up from celeron/pentium/atom chips, or whatever they're called - they should be a good halfway house for tablets, between power and battery. I'd imagine Apple is looking at this hard - in fact I recall reading this somewhere...

    Either way the future looks good!

    Slap one of these into a 1520 with a 41mp camera, sd card and get the camera taking shots in under a second and msft is golden!!!!! ;)
    06-11-2014 07:48 AM
  5. vlad0's Avatar
    If they are aiming at ARM, as he said in the presentation, then those chips have to be priced in the same category as top end ARM chips like the upcoming Snap 805 ... now, if they can do that I will be even more impressed.

    As far as performance, I am guessing that they will be around the current low TDP Core i3 haswell.. but we will have to wait and see. Windows 8.1 is so efficient at this point, it doesn't need all that much to run smoothly. Hopefully some of the 3rd party apps for Windows can optimize their code further as well..

    I much rather have lower weight and longer battery life, but still be able to run all win32 apps on my fanless tablet : )

    The Asus has built in LTE, which bonds well for future Surface products.
    06-11-2014 11:00 AM
  6. vlad0's Avatar
    Slap one of these into a 1520 with a 41mp camera, sd card and get the camera taking shots in under a second and msft is golden!!!!! ;)
    I've been thinking about that.. now that they own the tech, have the camera stack running under Windows NT already, why not start putting those camera modules in their tablets ? Maybe next gen will have a proper camera :)
    06-11-2014 11:02 AM
  7. Poirots Progeny's Avatar
    I've been thinking about that.. now that they own the tech, have the camera stack running under Windows NT already, why not start putting those camera modules in their tablets ? Maybe next gen will have a proper camera :)
    That's an idea I like!!!!

    Really it comes down to how brave msft are feeling. The 1020 had sold bit not super crazy well. But then msft might be able to do more with the tech...
    06-11-2014 12:42 PM
  8. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    It will probably also be less powerful than the current i5 and i7 processors that are in the S3P. If it is true what I've read it's something between an Atom and a Core. Still very neat for tablets, but maybe not the same level of desktop replacement.
    Agreed, those core mobile ("m") chips are not going to be in the same league as the I series chips in the sp 2 & 3.

    But then they're not meant to be. This is Intel attempting to stomp on arm, Qualcomm et al. And it runs proper windows, so renders rt moot. Which is probably the way msft is heading, with os convergence across platforms.

    These m processors should be a step up from celeron/pentium/atom chips, or whatever they're called - they should be a good halfway house for tablets, between power and battery. I'd imagine Apple is looking at this hard - in fact I recall reading this somewhere...

    Either way the future looks good!

    Slap one of these into a 1520 with a 41mp camera, sd card and get the camera taking shots in under a second and msft is golden!!!!! ;)
    ​"Core M" is the branding of the Broadwell-Y processor line. If you were curious about what the i5 is, it's the Haswell-Y. The i7 is the Haswell-U, so that would be a difference. But what you're saying is that the Haswell-Y is more powerful than the Broadwell-Y will be when it comes out. I don't really see that happening. It will have an upgraded GPU, though still GT2 as opposed to GT3 like the U variant does. It will also cap out at 8GB of DDR3-1600 RAM, just like the current Y variant does.

    As for Apple, they use the U variant. These have a higher power use, but they're also more powerful. It's also what the i7 Surface Pro 3 is, the U variant. It has a different GPU.

    Anyway, my point was that there's no reason to think this is going to be any slower than the current Surface Pro. It's an upgraded CPU and an upgraded GPU from the same variant of the architecture.

    Edit: Also, they're shooting for 3.5-4.5 watt TDP.
    06-11-2014 03:54 PM
  9. Chregu's Avatar
    ​"Core M" is the branding of the Broadwell-Y processor line. If you were curious about what the i5 is, it's the Haswell-Y. The i7 is the Haswell-U, so that would be a difference. But what you're saying is that the Haswell-Y is more powerful than the Broadwell-Y will be when it comes out. I don't really see that happening. It will have an upgraded GPU, though still GT2 as opposed to GT3 like the U variant does. It will also cap out at 8GB of DDR3-1600 RAM, just like the current Y variant does.

    As for Apple, they use the U variant. These have a higher power use, but they're also more powerful. It's also what the i7 Surface Pro 3 is, the U variant. It has a different GPU.

    Anyway, my point was that there's no reason to think this is going to be any slower than the current Surface Pro. It's an upgraded CPU and an upgraded GPU from the same variant of the architecture.

    Edit: Also, they're shooting for 3.5-4.5 watt TDP.
    Of course the updated i5 and i7 processors will be at least as fast as the current generation. But the Core M is neither of them.
    06-11-2014 04:00 PM
  10. onysi's Avatar
    impressed but not quite. i want my tablet to bend.
    06-11-2014 04:06 PM
  11. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Of course the updated i5 and i7 processors will be at least as fast as the current generation. But the Core M is neither of them.
    Core-M is a branding of the Y variant of the Core i processors. I don't know why you think they're coming up with something that's an i-# processor for Broadwell-Y as well as their Core-M. The exact processor that the Surface Pro 3 uses is the i5-4300Y. As in, to my knowledge the Surface Pro 3 uses the Y variant of the Core processors. You're telling me that the updated i5 and i7 will be faster, which would make them faster Y variant processors.

    Core-M is the Y variant processor.

    All they're doing is a rebranding, and people are eating it up like it's a new product. It's not. It's the tick-tock strategy at work. This is the 14nm die shrink of the Haswell Architecture that's being called Broadwell.

    Edit: For the record, the i5-4210Y is only marginally slower than the i5-4200U. You'll mostly see the difference in benchmarks, not in actual performance.
    Last edited by Michael Alan Goff; 06-11-2014 at 05:24 PM.
    06-11-2014 04:53 PM
  12. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Intel Core i5-4200U Intel Core i5-4200Y
    Market segment Mobile
    Manufacturer Intel
    Family Core i5 Mobile
    Basic details
    Model number i5-4200U i5-4200Y
    CPU part number CL8064701477702 CL8064701557900
    Introduction date June 2, 2013
    CPU features
    Core name Haswell
    Platform name Shark Bay
    Microarchitecture Haswell
    Technology (micron) 0.022
    Data width (bits) 64
    Socket BGA1168
    Frequency (MHz) 1600 1400
    Turbo Frequency (MHz) 2600 1900
    Clock Multiplier 16 14
    L1 cache 64 KB (code) / 64 KB (data)
    L2 cache (KB) 512
    L3 cache (KB) 3072
    Max temperature (C) 100
    TDP (Watt) 15 11.5
    Cores 2
    Threads 4
    Multiprocessing 1
    Instruction set extensions
    AES / Advanced Encryption Standard +
    AMD64 / EM64T 64-bit technology +
    AVX / Advanced Vector Extensions +
    AVX2 / Advanced Vector Extensions 2 +
    FMA3 / 3-operand Fused Multiply-Add +
    MMX +
    SSE +
    SSE2 +
    SSE3 +
    SSE4.1 +
    SSE4.2 +
    SSSE3 / Supplemental SSE3 +
    Supported technologies
    Hyper-Threading +
    PowerNow! / Enhanced SpeedStep +
    Turbo Core / Turbo Boost +
    Virtualization +
    Virus Protection / Execute Disable bit +
    Integrated Graphics
    GPU Type HD 4400 HD 4200
    Base frequency (MHz) 200
    Maximum frequency (MHz) 1000 850
    Integrated Memory Controller(s)
    The number of controllers 1
    Memory channels 2
    Supported memory DDR3L-1333, DDR3L-1600, LPDDR3-1333, LPDDR3-1600


    As you can see, the major difference between the Y variant and the U variant is the frequency, and it isn't even something that the average person would notice as the CPU isn't being taxed on anything other than gaming. Even then, a good GPU will be more important.
    vlad0 likes this.
    06-11-2014 05:34 PM
  13. vlad0's Avatar
    ​ It will also cap out at 8GB of DDR3-1600 RAM, just like the current Y variant does..
    I was really hoping for DDR4, which was in the original road map, but oh well.. Skylake it is. That would've give us further power consumption benefits.

    Here are some news on skylake

    Some features of Skylake graphics architecture


    Anyway, my point was that there's no reason to think this is going to be any slower than the current Surface Pro. It's an upgraded CPU and an upgraded GPU from the same variant of the architecture.

    Edit: Also, they're shooting for 3.5-4.5 watt TDP.
    I dunno.. we will have to wait and see what those 4.5 watt chips can really do. I know its 14nm and all, but still.. that is a substantial drop in power drain.. if they maintain the current productivity levels at that TDP I will be very, very impressed.

    Of course the updated i5 and i7 processors will be at least as fast as the current generation. But the Core M is neither of them.
    Its the Y series..

    Intel announces Broadwell processors and new mobile platform

    "According to Intel, the mobile Broadwell chips will be branded as "Core M", and there will be also Vpro enabled SKUs, branded as Core M Vpro. The fastest processor at launch will be Core M-70, which is probably another name for the 5Y70 model. Based on earlier reports, Intel also planned 5Y10 and 5Y10a SKUs, and it is possible that they will be also renamed to something like Core M-10 and M-10A. "

    More here

    http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2014/2...rocessors.html

    "The first to launch will be "Y" series Core processors with model numbers 5Y70, 5Y10a and 5Y10. They will have 2 CPU cores, 4.5 Watt TDP, and 2.8 Watt Scenario Design Power. "
    06-11-2014 05:34 PM
  14. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I was really hoping for DDR4, which was in the original road map, but oh well.. Skylake it is. That would've give us further power consumption benefits.

    Here are some news on skylake

    Some features of Skylake graphics architecture




    I dunno.. we will have to wait and see what those 4.5 watt chips can really do. I know its 14nm and all, but still.. that is a substantial drop in power drain.. if they maintain the current productivity levels at that TDP I will be very, very impressed.



    Its the Y series..

    Intel announces Broadwell processors and new mobile platform

    "According to Intel, the mobile Broadwell chips will be branded as "Core M", and there will be also Vpro enabled SKUs, branded as Core M Vpro. The fastest processor at launch will be Core M-70, which is probably another name for the 5Y70 model. Based on earlier reports, Intel also planned 5Y10 and 5Y10a SKUs, and it is possible that they will be also renamed to something like Core M-10 and M-10A. "

    More here

    Launch schedule of Intel mobile processors

    "The first to launch will be "Y" series Core processors with model numbers 5Y70, 5Y10a and 5Y10. They will have 2 CPU cores, 4.5 Watt TDP, and 2.8 Watt Scenario Design Power. "
    We do know they were able to drop the power use during the last die-shrink (32nm-22nm) to where more of their processors had the 17w and fewer had the 35. In some cases, that was cutting the power use in half while actually improving the performance (due to a variety of factors, like GPU strength, faster memory bandwidth, and so forth). I don't see this being monstrously faster than what we have now, but I certainly see it being at least as fast CPU wise, faster GPU, and amazing battery gains.

    Then again, Broadwell is all about energy use.
    06-11-2014 06:06 PM
  15. badMojo69's Avatar
    I like. I want the CHI...I just hope it can run desktop apps.
    06-11-2014 06:45 PM
  16. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I like. I want the CHI...I just hope it can run desktop apps.
    It's x86-64, so that's a big thumbs up on desktop apps.
    badMojo69 likes this.
    06-11-2014 07:26 PM
  17. vlad0's Avatar
    We do know they were able to drop the power use during the last die-shrink (32nm-22nm) to where more of their processors had the 17w and fewer had the 35. In some cases, that was cutting the power use in half while actually improving the performance (due to a variety of factors, like GPU strength, faster memory bandwidth, and so forth). I don't see this being monstrously faster than what we have now, but I certainly see it being at least as fast CPU wise, faster GPU, and amazing battery gains.

    Then again, Broadwell is all about energy use.
    I hope you a right.. I mean, there is no reason to believe that these will be slower than their Haswell equivalents, but I am just setting my expectations as low as I can :)

    The other interesting thing is pricing.. if they manage to cut the price down in order to really compete with ARM, without taking a loss, it will be huge.

    And the other of course is when would Microsoft implement the chips into the surface line up.. I am really hoping holiday season so I can get myself a new machine, but I dunno..

    I like. I want the CHI...I just hope it can run desktop apps.
    No pen support ... otherwise its very pretty

    I would just wait for a broadwell surface, despite the fact that they don't want to compete with their OEMs, they are.. their product is much better than anything else out there.
    06-11-2014 08:24 PM
  18. Chregu's Avatar
    Of course the updated i5 and i7 processors will be at least as fast as the current generation. But the Core M is neither of them.
    Okay, sorry about the naming thing, let me try this again.

    Of course the updated i5 and i7 processor equivalents will be at least as fast as the current generation, I have however nowhere read that they will be fanless. According to my informations, the Core M shown in this fanless tablet is neither of them.
    Last edited by Chregu; 06-12-2014 at 12:49 AM.
    06-12-2014 12:31 AM
  19. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Okay, sorry about the naming thing, let me try this again.

    Of course the updated i5 and i7 processor equivalents will be at least as fast as the current generation, I have however nowhere read that they will be fanless. According to my informations, the Core M shown in this fanless tablet is neither of them.
    Alright, let's look at what the current Surface Pro 3 uses. It uses the i5-4300U and the i7-U (I can't remember the exact model number). Now, let's look at the only difference between the i5-4300u and the i5-4300Y. The only difference between the two is the clock speed of the CPU and GPU. The Y is the U, just clocked slightly slower to make sure it gets better battery life. Now, given the difference in power use between the two models in Haswell (11.5W vs 15W), and the barely noticeable difference ... we're going to see the Core-M being faster than the Core Y processors are now and at they should be slightly faster than what the i5-4300U is today. And that's if Microsoft doesn't take the Core-M and get it clocked high enough to keep their "revolutionary fan".

    Remember, the way they keep it fanless is the power savings from shrinking and clocking it slower then what they'll clock their U variant. But the performance difference between the current U and Y is not exactly bragging material, so there's no reason to assume it will be the same this time.

    In essence:
    Y is U with a slightly slower clock speed, not a pansy processor
    Core M is Y
    Y is slightly slower than U
    Haswell is slower than Broadwell
    Broadwell Y should be at least as fast, if not slightly faster, than the current Haswell U
    06-12-2014 09:36 AM
  20. Chregu's Avatar
    Alright, let's look at what the current Surface Pro 3 uses. It uses the i5-4300U and the i7-U (I can't remember the exact model number). Now, let's look at the only difference between the i5-4300u and the i5-4300Y. The only difference between the two is the clock speed of the CPU and GPU. The Y is the U, just clocked slightly slower to make sure it gets better battery life. Now, given the difference in power use between the two models in Haswell (11.5W vs 15W), and the barely noticeable difference ... we're going to see the Core-M being faster than the Core Y processors are now and at they should be slightly faster than what the i5-4300U is today. And that's if Microsoft doesn't take the Core-M and get it clocked high enough to keep their "revolutionary fan".

    Remember, the way they keep it fanless is the power savings from shrinking and clocking it slower then what they'll clock their U variant. But the performance difference between the current U and Y is not exactly bragging material, so there's no reason to assume it will be the same this time.

    In essence:
    Y is U with a slightly slower clock speed, not a pansy processor
    Core M is Y
    Y is slightly slower than U
    Haswell is slower than Broadwell
    Broadwell Y should be at least as fast, if not slightly faster, than the current Haswell U
    Okay, I have looked up the article where my information is from:

    Accordingly, performance will fall short of a typical Ultrabook with a Core i5 or i7 processor, though it should still be an improvement over Intel's "Bay Trail" chips, found in many of today's 2-in-1s. Beyond that, Intel isn't making any specific claims, other than hinting at longer battery life (which would make sense, given the lower TDP). Whatever the performance is, though, we suspect it'll be good enough for mainstream users -- especially at this price.
    Intel's super-thin 'Core M' tablets will be cheaper than you think

    Let's see if they produce a fan-less Surface Pro with the same or even more power as the current gen. It would certainly be awesome.
    06-12-2014 09:44 AM
  21. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Okay, I have looked up the article where my information is from:



    Intel's super-thin 'Core M' tablets will be cheaper than you think

    Let's see if they produce a fan-less Surface Pro with the same or even more power as the current gen. It would certainly be awesome.
    ​Without a quote from an Intel guy, that just seems like speculation.
    06-12-2014 10:32 AM
  22. Chregu's Avatar
    ​Without a quote from an Intel guy, that just seems like speculation.
    Exactly what you are doing. Speculating. Throwing specs around and making assumptions.

    Personally I don't know, but considering the past, this article from a reliable blog, the comments on this article, and just common sense, I go for the Engadget information.

    Time will tell who's right of course.
    06-12-2014 10:37 AM
  23. jpal12's Avatar
    If the Surface Pro 4 used a Core M, it would be much slower than the Surface Pro 3. Even the i7 version would be lower than the i5 SP3 model.
    06-12-2014 10:39 AM
  24. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Exactly what you are doing. Speculating. Throwing specs around and making assumptions.

    Personally I don't know, but considering the past, this article from a reliable blog, the comments on this article, and just common sense, I go for the Engadget information.

    Time will tell who's right of course.
    Yes, time will tell.

    ​I'm watching this new processor with great interest.
    Chregu likes this.
    06-12-2014 10:54 AM
  25. Atomic Walrus's Avatar
    Fanless again? It's so frustrating I had to make an account just to talk about it. For a certain type of user the fanless Surface Pro would be a downgrade no matter what CPU generation it used.

    To begin with the idea that Broadwell is going to bring us current gen performance in a fanless system is unreasonably optimistic. Maybe -- MAYBE -- you could hit similar performance targets instantaneously from a cold start (and that's being unreasonably generous with power optimization estimates). What's going to happen over a minute or so is that the fanless system will start to throttle significantly while the system with a fan will maintain its performance until the battery runs out.

    For a consumption device bursts of performance followed by heavy throttling are acceptable. A device like an iPad performs CPU-heavy tasks infrequently and generally for short periods of time. When it does run CPU intensive tasks for an extended period it simply throttles as needed, significantly reducing the actual processing speed. Again this is a non-issue because very few people use these devices for serious work (because of the limited OS's).

    A fanless system will certainly never be satisfactory for the type of user currently looking at an i7 SP3. Hypothetically let's say that 2+ generations down the line a fanless system can match the performance of the Haswell i5/i7 options over an extended period of time without throttling (and I think this is still a stretch). What that also means is that if you were simply willing to live with a fan (why do we hate fans?) you would see vastly improved performance over the current systems with the same battery life.

    The above highlights the core issue: Fanless will always mean stepping back a couple generations in performance. No matter how power efficient your CPU is, it could run much, MUCH faster with an active cooling solution. An iPad would run significantly faster provided with active cooling and allowed to maintain higher clocks, but considering the light intended usage of the device this is actually undesirable (faster battery depletion). The SP's targeted usage is quite different from an iPad's.

    I simply hope MS understands the device they've created well enough to avoid falling into this fanless/consumption device trap. If the market demands it then it makes more sense to split the line again and reintroduce the non-Pro Surface tablet as a fanless system (which can run proper desktop software this time) while maintaining the "Pro" line as the serious laptop replacement using actual cooling solutions.

    There are two classes of devices being discussed here as if they fit together:

    The theoretical device demonstrated in the video:
    -A consumption tablet that runs ultra-light laptop parts and can do light laptop work.
    The Surface Pro:
    -A real laptop that happens to be in tablet form factor and can be used for serious work.

    TL;DR Version: You go fanless, you drop back something like 3 CPU generations in sustained performance compared to a similar CPU with a fan. Not acceptable for the "Pro" device in the lineup. Reintroduce the Non-pro Surface using this chip and full Windows. Maybe replace the i3 option with this device?
    Last edited by Atomic Walrus; 06-12-2014 at 12:03 PM.
    06-12-2014 11:41 AM
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