03-30-2016 03:35 AM
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  1. Grimmric's Avatar
    Am 1%'r.
    You cant be the 1%. I am the 1%.
    12-18-2015 01:10 AM
  2. thatdennis's Avatar
    Thats one important thing I forgot to mention - i often work from home/remote and I VPN into the company network almost 50% of my time.
    Yep, then definitely go with the 8GB RAM. Meaning i5.

    I would hold out buying until January (I'm doing it too) as Microsoft is probably shipping the faulty/problem units during Christmas. You get a new batch with better usability out of the box, win win for you.

    Also if you decided that you don't like the fans and won't use 8 gb of RAM (which I highly doubt), return the unit and opt for the fanless m3-like me.

    He may be the 1% but the other 99% do not need 8GB, if he runs all that he does not need advice here that's for sure.
    Look I'm tired of this. Where's your proof of the so called "1%"? Are all the gamers, video editors, CG artists, YouTube video makers, renderers, Chrome users, architects, etc. all the 1%. Please enlighten me where you got this statement from?
    Last edited by xandros9; 01-03-2016 at 03:32 PM. Reason: merging
    12-18-2015 07:41 AM
  3. boltman2013's Avatar
    Look I'm tired of this. Where's your proof of the so called "1%"? Are all the gamers, video editors, CG artists, YouTube video makers, renderers, Chrome users, architects, etc. all the 1%. Please enlighten me where you got this statement from?
    Most of those you list would not buy a surface. Except for chrome users LOL.
    .
    Hint :There are a lot of people that may own a surface. Do the math don't act like a mindless apple fan

    http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Featur...ally-need.aspx

    "Conclusion
    Even during our Real World Multi-apps test – which opens several major applications at once – our test system’s total RAM usage never topped 4GB. This means Windows didn’t need to fall back on virtual memory at any point . As such, installing more RAM would yield only a modest speed boost."

    Owned.People never do what you say that's leaves 1%..that may push their surfaces that way everyday, Seriously try a 4GB surface and you will see. Its all about what you think not what you actually need.

    Microsoft would not sell a PRO device that could not be used in Professional situations. Yet they will gladly take extra money for more RAM if you give it to them.
    Last edited by boltman2013; 12-18-2015 at 08:16 AM.
    12-18-2015 08:05 AM
  4. fj_cruiser's Avatar
    Most of those you list would not buy a surface. Except for chrome users LOL.
    .
    Hint :There are a lot of people that may own a surface. Do the math don't act like a mindless apple fan



    "Conclusion
    Even during our Real World Multi-apps test which opens several major applications at once our test systems total RAM usage never topped 4GB. This means Windows didnt need to fall back on virtual memory at any point . As such, installing more RAM would yield only a modest speed boost."

    Owned.People never do what you say that's leaves 1%..that may push their surfaces that way everyday, Seriously try a 4GB surface and you will see. Its all about what you think not what you actually need.

    Microsoft would not sell a PRO device that could not be used in Professional situations. Yet they will gladly take extra money for more RAM if you give it to them.
    I am not able to post the link since I dont have 10 posts yet, but if you look up "TechSpot How much Ram? 4GB vs 8GB vs 16GB" the article, based on their testing, recommends that 8GB is the sweet spot. Very interesting results too - and neatly represented graphically.

    He may be the 1% but the other 99% do not need 8GB, if he runs all that he does not need advice here that's for sure.
    Because I run all that, I dont need advice here? Sorry, but I didnt quite get that, or the reasoning behind that. I work in IT but mostly in SAP (and other ERP/CRM/BI/and other business applications) and I consider myself a newb when it comes to OS and hardware knowledge. I may be a little more familiar with OSX but any windows issue and I immediately call my helpdesk guys to come take a look or swap my SSD into a loaner until they figure things out with my primary. So, when it comes to purchasing a personal windows machine, I think I qualify to seek advice here, no?

    Yep, then definitely go with the 8GB RAM. Meaning i5.

    I would hold out buying until January (I'm doing it too) as Microsoft is probably shipping the faulty/problem units during Christmas. You get a new batch with better usability out of the box, win win for you.

    Also if you decided that you don't like the fans and won't use 8 gb of RAM (which I highly doubt), return the unit and opt for the fanless m3-like me.
    Thanks for your advice and guidance. Yes, I did read it somewhere here, there being some early manufacturing issues with the SP4 assembly and that the issues will be addressed in future production batches. Also, I am not in a rush either and have plenty of time to research, learn from expert like yourself, and make an informed decision. I may even wait longer to hear feedback from folks like you who have had a chance to spend some time with the January batch.
    Last edited by xandros9; 01-03-2016 at 03:33 PM. Reason: merging
    12-18-2015 09:16 AM
  5. brianbrain's Avatar
    Man, that 1% is awfully crowded with a lot of people.
    It would certainly appear that way, wouldn't it.

    I think there's some misconceptions regarding how memory compression works in Windows 10. It is not the holy grail of memory space savings, as it is being proclaimed by some.

    The memory compression system acts as a tier, sitting in between RAM and disk. The most inactive pages will swap to disk, while more active pages that aren't active enough to remain in RAM will be compressed. This has the benefit of reducing disk swapping by ~50%, which obviously improves system responsiveness during low memory scenarios, as well as reduces the wear on your SSD.

    Memory compression does not compress all pages in RAM. The amount of active pages kept in RAM will still be the same (only the less active pages get compressed and there is a proportional limit to the compressed pool's size out of your total RAM).. While memory compression is a great addition to Windows 10, it can *not* be considered when making decisions over how much RAM you need.

    Back to "how much memory is enough". The answer is obvious: It depends. Below are some generalizations, but shouldn't be taken as gospel:

    If all you do is check your email, web browse, maybe create a word document or two, and watch Netflix, then 4GB should cover your tasks fine...for now.

    If you use any Office products extensively (that includes OneNote), then you're likely going to need 8GB of RAM. Same goes for other software like Photoshop, Illustrator, etc and games. Essentially, anyone who plans on using their Surface for professional, graphical, or gaming purposes should probably be looking at 8GB right out of the gate.

    Users who tend to leave many things running at once (multi-taskers) should also consider 8GB. You may not use all of it right away, but this leaves you with some room to grow, or as some like to call it "upgrade protection".

    16GB is for those of us who are pushing the limits. Running Virtual Machines, doing serious graphical work, or even working with large documents/spreadsheets in Office. This is not your average user, but rest assured, there are more of us out there than you may think :)

    Finally, anyone that tells you what you need, is wrong. Period. End of story. Only you can properly assess your usage and needs. These forums should provide guidance, but each situation is unique, so make sure your unique situation is handled by the person who knows you best. Yourself.
    12-18-2015 01:06 PM
  6. boltman2013's Avatar
    "If you use any Office products extensively (that includes OneNote), then you're likely going to need 8GB of RAM. "

    No...

    Home, Personal and Student plans

    If you are using a PC, you will need a processor with at least 1GHz speed. For Mac, it should be a bit higher speed and should be Intel.
    Office 365 Basic can run on 2GB RAM on PCs. For Mac, it should be 4GB.
    HDD space for running Office 365 home should be 3GB while for Mac, it should be 6GB and the HDD format for the latter should be what is called Mac OS Extended format or HFC plus.
    Display requirements for both PC and Mac are 1280 x 800 resolution.
    Browsers used should be the latest versions; in case you do not have access to latest versions, the immediately preceding version would do.
    You will also need .NET 4 or 4.5 CLR; Though you can also do with 3.5, it may restrict some features.
    Business and government plans

    For PC, you will need a 1GHz processor of any make; For Mac, Intel processor is recommended.
    PC would require 2GB RAM while Mac will require 4GB
    Hard disk space should be 3GB for PC while Mac would require 6GB; Again, the format of HDD in Mac should be Extended Mac OS or HFC Plus
    Operating system should be the latest as far as possible
    Display resolution required for proper functioning is 1280 x 800
    Browser should be latest versions as far as possible; if the latest version is not available, immediately preceding versions can be used
    Your Microsoft Office clients should be in compliance with Office 365: Office 2010 through Office 2016; the latest versions on all your computers accessing Office 365 makes sure no inconsistencies occur
    12-18-2015 02:50 PM
  7. jbaylon's Avatar
    Shoot, I didn't realize. 1 GHz processor? It's easily most economical to pull that computer from 1997 out of the dumpster in your apartment complex. Give it a new hard drive and you'll be jetting through documents like its 2005!
    zkyevolved and Grimmric like this.
    12-18-2015 05:41 PM
  8. boltman2013's Avatar
    Shoot, I didn't realize. 1 GHz processor? It's easily most economical to pull that computer from 1997 out of the dumpster in your apartment complex. Give it a new hard drive and you'll be jetting through documents like its 2005!
    Point is 8GB is NOT a need even for heavy Office use..fact is computers have been" fast enough "since Core2Duo and DDR2 circa 2006.... This 8GB "must have" belief of 2015 is simply from RAM being dirt cheap..except on Surface and Macs..for most they won't notice any difference at all going from 4 to 8. Even if they offered an exta 4GB RAM upgrade at say $200 I would not buy it. Not worth it,,at $50 maybe.

    Need for 4GB More (8GB total) RAM for(all inclusive list):

    1. Mutiple VM's
    2. Video encoding speed increase
    3. Matlab/CAD
    4. Photoshop Professional Environment
    5. Running it as a production Server
    Last edited by boltman2013; 12-18-2015 at 07:03 PM.
    12-18-2015 05:49 PM
  9. jbaylon's Avatar
    So I'm a fairly standard user, I think, and I'm currently running two instances of Chrome (4 tabs total), and I have one document open in Visio and one in Word. My RAM has flatlined at 3.2GB used (out of 8GB available). My install of Windows 10 is also brand new (3 days old, I think), and nothing else is running in the background and I don't have it weighed down with bloatware and whatnot. It's not uncommon at all for me to use another instance or two of office (usually PPT or Excel) plus a tool or two in the background (photoshop/GIMP, for example, or MATLAB). I'm not certain, and those who know can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd guess that using 80% (3.2G/4G) of total RAM as a very normal minimum for me would result in very noticable slowdown. Adding those extra programs will doubtless rack up another GB or two, depending on the documents and what's running, so it seems like I really would see a bad roll off dropping from 8GB to 4GB. Of course, this ignores future-proofing, which should be at least a minor consideration.
    12-18-2015 06:17 PM
  10. boltman2013's Avatar
    So I'm a fairly standard user, I think, and I'm currently running two instances of Chrome (4 tabs total), and I have one document open in Visio and one in Word. My RAM has flatlined at 3.2GB used (out of 8GB available). My install of Windows 10 is also brand new (3 days old, I think), and nothing else is running in the background and I don't have it weighed down with bloatware and whatnot. It's not uncommon at all for me to use another instance or two of office (usually PPT or Excel) plus a tool or two in the background (photoshop/GIMP, for example, or MATLAB). I'm not certain, and those who know can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd guess that using 80% (3.2G/4G) of total RAM as a very normal minimum for me would result in very noticable slowdown. Adding those extra programs will doubtless rack up another GB or two, depending on the documents and what's running, so it seems like I really would see a bad roll off dropping from 8GB to 4GB. Of course, this ignores future-proofing, which should be at least a minor consideration.
    IF anything programs are getting more efficient over time...so the "future proofing" is not really a concern.
    I would try 4GB Surface Pro with your "stuff" and see what happens then exchange higher if needed. Windows will use RAM if available but doesn't necessarily need it so watching utilized does not do anything other than seeing a graph. They have Windows 10 running so smooth on Lumia phones with 512KB Like my older 635..it does fine.
    Last edited by boltman2013; 12-18-2015 at 07:15 PM.
    12-18-2015 06:25 PM
  11. jbaylon's Avatar
    Wow. First, "programs are getting more efficient" is patently false, borderline delusional. The more efficient programs get, the more features they cram in. Particularly as 8 GB and beyond becomes the norm.

    Second, bringing up the fact that they have windows 10 running on Lumia phones is wildly deceptive. Open up Word and PPT and Visio 2013 (the desktop versions) on those phones and let me know how smoothly they run.
    12-18-2015 06:38 PM
  12. boltman2013's Avatar
    Wow. First, "programs are getting more efficient" is patently false, borderline delusional. The more efficient programs get, the more features they cram in. Particularly as 8 GB and beyond becomes the norm.

    Second, bringing up the fact that they have windows 10 running on Lumia phones is wildly deceptive. Open up Word and PPT and Visio 2013 (the desktop versions) on those phones and let me know how smoothly they run.
    They are "desktop versions" on Lumia's..check out continuum and Universal apps its all one core now. Programs are more efficient so is Windows 10. There is a push for more efficient coding from various factors like mobile adaptation and security efficient code base. You act like desktops are king and huge sloppy code is they aren't ..mobile and secure battery efficient code are. Heck they have IOT windows 10 too.

    Look around. A lot of the push back here on 4GB driven mostly by prior belief and what people read however not actual 2015 reality at all. Microsoft knows how to make "pro" devices with little in the way of hardware resources. They have to as Enterprises don't like hardware upgrades. Same reason old systems all the sudden run better with the new OS. Many systems don't even have 4GB that is reality...and do absolutely fine.
    Last edited by boltman2013; 12-18-2015 at 07:17 PM.
    12-18-2015 06:42 PM
  13. zkyevolved's Avatar
    Guys, guys! I think this is getting a little out of hand. Let's agree to disagree.... 4GB is enough for the majority of people. I consider myself to be savvy enough to know how much ram I need and use, and I use my Surface as a desktop replacement when I don't want to boot up my desktop. This means I use it 100% as I would my desktop! Apart from disk space restraints, which MS doesn't make a single Surface book or pro with the space I use on my desktop, RAM on the other hand is more than enough with 4 GB. I have Chrome open with 7 tabs, a few metro apps and music streaming and I am at 2.7GB RAM. I think it's far more than sufficient for most users.

    Are there users who will use 6 or 7 GB? Of course! Will there be users who use 10 or 14? Yeah! So in that case, get the 16gb model. But I honestly think that 4GB is enough for now and the next few years.

    In regards to office: Yes, you shouldn't hit the 4GB limit with a document open. I'm no expert in Office but I imagine the more complex the document, excel or powerpoint, the larger the hold on memory. Here is a test:
    A powerpoint that I edited that's 95% text and animations for a review for students (1.1mb).
    snip_20151219081009.jpg

    And here is another presentation that's exclusively images and gifs (132mb).
    snip_20151219081049.png

    So the larger the presentation, the more it'll take hold of. I also imagine while sharing and doing editing at the same time with an Excel sheet, I'm also sure that those extra processes also take up RAM.

    So, I think 4GB is more than enough, but of course my professional use of my SP is different than any other professional usage of a fellow SP user.
    boltman2013 and xandros9 like this.
    12-19-2015 01:15 AM
  14. ioaniro's Avatar
    With Edge and Nextgen reader running you get this:

    Total Physical Memory: 8,116 MB
    Available Physical Memory: 4,993 MB
    Virtual Memory: Max Size: 9,396 MB
    Virtual Memory: Available: 6,124 MB
    Virtual Memory: In Use: 3,272 MB

    In day to day life of normal usage 4 would be easily enough because the SSD is also kind of fast and the pagingfile is pretty efficient. As I already mentioned before you can slow down a 4Gb RAM machine with just word or excel easily if you have a complex file. For word it requires just a 4-6 page document with multiple authors and full track changes displayed. But that's not an average consumer use. However, this is a pro device so it is the use of the target audience of this device. For normal home use you don't even need a pro. So we can agree to disagree but you don't need to use complex stuff (like photoshop and VMs) to need more than 8Gb. Complex use of office is enough.
    brianbrain and onlysublime like this.
    12-19-2015 04:41 AM
  15. boltman2013's Avatar
    I agree to disagree ...I'm absolutely correct and others are somewhat correct in certain use cases, which is what I originally pointed out by myself with allotment of 1% of Surface Pro user base (ie those in need of Always running multiple VMs, Professional Photoshop use, Extreme collaborative co-live-contributing complex excel 6-8 page office docs) not sure why it took so many posts. Glad we finally settled on the 2015 pro tablet reality as a group.
    12-19-2015 09:58 AM
  16. ryland Johnson's Avatar
    .......
    Last edited by ryland Johnson; 01-02-2016 at 11:32 AM.
    sjaduae and Koala Koala like this.
    12-19-2015 06:46 PM
  17. mc511's Avatar
    I got the Surface pro 4 i5 with 8 gigs of ram and the 256 gig ssd. Glad i didnt get the lower end models. I do mostly 2d work like photoshop and illustrator, plus i am a web designer so running dreamweaver is important. I also have multiple browsers running since you do need to test websites across different browsers. I am running an app called rainmeter and that typically tells me that i have taken up like 75% of my ram. A good chunk. I also work in IT so running Visual Studio and Sharepoint Designer will be important someday. I really dont intend on using this as a gaming machine as I already have an i7 desktop with a 970gtx inside. If i am going to install games it will be like the classic Doom or Raptor Call of the Shadows. Nothing to intense. I might stream my xbox one games to this device but who knows. I wouldnt get the i7 unless you are doing heavy video editing or 3d auto cad work. This really isnt a gaming machine in my eyes. Although ill admit most Valve games and blizzard games will run just fine on this, i just dont think it meets my PC gaming needs. My gaming desktop is there for that.

    We also rent down the shore every summer for about a month so this will be pleasant to take down and watch twitch.tv on while sitting on the balcony at night. I dont think the M3 model would have suffice. Not for all my needs. But i think the i7 would have been overkill.
    Grimmric likes this.
    12-24-2015 12:39 AM
  18. Geo Hutchings's Avatar
    I didn't get it for gaming just I use my surface 2 as a tblet 95 % of the time but ike to fire up the odd game or 2 when I'm away nothing demanding, mostly play supreme commander and war thunder both of which surface pro 2 can play apart from supreme commander after you get about 4000 units on the maps.

    I see that the i7 will probably give more performance than the i5 even when throttled and the i5 is out of stock so prob keep the i7 just a bit annoying when its not throttled it capable of playing some really good games like battlefield 4 and battlefront both of which my pro 2 cant.

    Just seems a bit naff you pay for the performance and its there its capable of it but you cant use it like you can see it but cant reach it lol
    Simple fix put it on power saving, go to option and set the CPU to 65% done, thank me later
    12-24-2015 12:45 AM
  19. fj_cruiser's Avatar
    Simple fix put it on power saving, go to option and set the CPU to 65% done, thank me later
    But doesn't that beat the purpose? If I understand this correctly, aren't you suggesting that we cap the CPU, and hence performance, at 65%, just so that the system doesn't do the same by itself? And if that is even somewhere correct, then why get an i7?
    01-03-2016 09:20 AM
  20. Geo Hutchings's Avatar
    But doesn't that beat the purpose? If I understand this correctly, aren't you suggesting that we cap the CPU, and hence performance, at 65%, just so that the system doesn't do the same by itself? And if that is even somewhere correct, then why get an i7?
    The i7 is powerfui... even at 65-90% it should not get that hot.. the reason to put it on power saving is to stop it heating up thus gives you more performance and longer lasting chips not the salted kind ;)
    turpo boost just makes more problem and power saving gets rid of that :D So what I am trying to say is do you want it to run at 2.9ghz for like 10mins then drop to 0.95ghz or do you want to keep it at 2ghz-2.2ghz with fan stable or 1.4-1.6 without fan stable.. think of it like locking frame rates in games


    I7 has a better graphics chip as well sooooo :)
    01-03-2016 02:23 PM
  21. thatdennis's Avatar
    Most of those you list would not buy a surface. Except for chrome users LOL.
    .
    Hint :There are a lot of people that may own a surface. Do the math don't act like a mindless apple fan

    How to: How much RAM do you really need? - PC & Tech Authority

    "Conclusion
    Even during our Real World Multi-apps test – which opens several major applications at once – our test system’s total RAM usage never topped 4GB. This means Windows didn’t need to fall back on virtual memory at any point . As such, installing more RAM would yield only a modest speed boost."

    Owned.People never do what you say that's leaves 1%..that may push their surfaces that way everyday, Seriously try a 4GB surface and you will see. Its all about what you think not what you actually need.

    Microsoft would not sell a PRO device that could not be used in Professional situations. Yet they will gladly take extra money for more RAM if you give it to them.
    Now that he's gone, I want to clarify to others seeking the i7 and mistakenly heard boltman's ramblings on the m3.

    Let me first say this to his above argument:

    1. Chrome users make up a lot of the web users. To a lot of older and corporation minded people (which is also a lot of web users), IE is still what they use, but to a lot of young people Chrome is attractive.

    2. Again flawed logic, how does he know the people I listed as to not buy the Surface. He isn't either of them. I also have seen a lot of people over in reddit saying they are the occupations I listed who want to buy a Surface. I also am not an apple fan as I don't have any Apple devices, ever.

    3. I have tried a 4GB Surface, the Surface 3. Though it fits a lot of my needs, there are annoying little bottlenecking parts such as when browsing both Edge or Chrome, I get lags (screen freezes). Also sometimes when opening multiple apps, my Surface's screen froze. I quickly checked the task manager and it displayed 3.9GB - 4GB RAM, clearly not enough even though I have tried it right? Forgive me for being childish, but owned.


    Ok moving to the actual topic again, the i7 is honestly geared more towards professionals who use a lot of CPU power, such as video editing. If you're a casual user or a professional who does not need the i7's power, I would think it better to stick with the i5 as you gain better battery life/a cooler running device (based on user experiences from reddit).

    The i7 though could be underpowered to meet casual needs, but it might be better to invest in the i5 as the i7 is pretty expensive.

    TL;DR Buy only if you need the i7's power, if not then better the i5.
    01-03-2016 03:40 PM
  22. Geo Hutchings's Avatar
    TL;DR Buy only if you need the i7's power, if not then better the i5.
    And that's the way its always been XD
    01-03-2016 04:15 PM
  23. InspectHerGadget's Avatar
    I've have both the SP3 i7 with 8G of RAM and 256G SSD and the SP4 i5 with 4G RAM and 128G SSD.

    I downtraded because of the cost. If the i7 were the same price I would buy it so really the question is whether you wish to pay for the i7 over the i5.

    I used the i7 SP3 every day for over a year. I bought it because I was concerned I might need more than 4G RAM. I found though that I didn't and my SP4 is really just as a second computer. If I need to use Lightroom and Photoshop then I used my six-core desktop.

    Everyone's situation is different but I decided 4G is enough and I can save a heap of money with pretty well identical performance as the i7 with more RAM. I'm sure if I had the SP4 i7 then maybe the performance would sharpen up again but I'm pretty happy with the performance of the i5 SP4 with 4G RAM. I also found myself not much need in the way of storage either as I use OneDrive, mainly for security. My SP4 is with me all the time and I want to know if it gets stolen that it is pretty well a 1-2 hour job setting up a new one and then just claim on insurance.

    Remember with electronic storage if you ever run short of RAM, it does swap quickly into/out of RAM, unlike a conventional HDD where the cost in performance can be steep.

    Again if it were my only computer, I would definitely pay up for more RAM and maybe the i7 as well.
    03-28-2016 02:24 AM
  24. Mikeman's Avatar
    I have the i7 - Simple - if you want faster performance - buy the i7. Yes - to me - its well worth the extra coinage to have one of the fastest mobile chips on the market. However, I used the i5 and it was nothing to scoff at. To me it comes down to the hard drive. I recently installed a i3 laptop with a kick *** Samsung SSHD and BAM! It ran like a raped ape. At this very moment I am working on a Sony VAIO which has an i5 - but an old SATA hard drive and its painful to say the least. If I slapped a SSHD into it - well raped ape.
    03-30-2016 03:35 AM
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