N-triq over Wacom kills the Pro 3 for me.

[StevoPhilo]

I don't see why MS couldn't anyways. Creative types just gotta be vocal about it so MS knows. The pen itself costs $49.99 separately.

I've think we've all been vocal about it. There is a reason why they decided to collaborate with Adobe and scale things up for this unit. The problem is they went through all this trouble only to put 256 ppl on this stylus? I mean take me back to early 2000 and I would be cool with it, but this is not worthwhile for anyone who does graphic arts in this age.

 

[Wall iPhone]

The problem is they went through all this trouble only to put 256 ppl on this stylus? I mean take me back to early 2000 and I would be cool with it, but this is not worthwhile for anyone who does graphic arts in this age.

Again you haven't used it, this new stylus with their new screen technology might blow all the other styluses away. So there is no need for anyone to speculate and whine about this.

 

[a5cent]

Lets keep in mind that these levels are over a less than 1mm distance. I'd be very impressed if you can tell the difference. What really matters is a smooth pressure curve for mapping what those minute details map

This is exactly what I was thinking too.

I'm sure a LOT more goes into designing a good pen for artists than "just" pressure levels. For example: The distance over which pressure is measured. The pressure levels at which highest and lowest pressures are measured. Uniformity of the pressure curve. Friction of the tip on the drawing surface. Frequency at which pressure measurements are taken. Software based interpolation between differing pressure measurement points. Tilt sensitivity. Shape of the pen tip. Surface area of the pen touching the screen at various angles. etc etc etc. I bet very few of those properties are listed in the specs, leaving us to associate the sum affect these properties have with the specs we are presented. Probably pressure lvls more than anything else.

That would make it similar to camera technology, where hundreds of optical and electrical properties contribute to the quality of the final picture, but many equate the sum affect of all those properties almost exclusively to megapixel count.

Again, I could be completely wrong. Just wondering out loud.

 

[Wall iPhone]

This is exactly what I was thinking too.

I'm sure a LOT more goes into designing a good pen for artists than "just" pressure levels. For example: The distance over which pressure is measured. The pressure levels at which highest and lowest pressures are measured. Uniformity of the pressure curve. Friction of the tip on the drawing surface. Frequency at which pressure measurements are taken. Software based interpolation between differing pressure measurement points. Tilt sensitivity. Shape of the pen tip. Surface area of the pen touching the screen at various angles. etc etc etc. I bet very few of those properties are listed in the specs, leaving us to associate the sum affect these properties have with the specs we are presented. Probably pressure lvls more than anything else.

That would make it similar to camera technology, where hundreds of optical and electrical properties contribute to the quality of the final picture, but many equate the sum affect of all those properties almost exclusively to megapixel count.

Again, I could be completely wrong. Just wondering out loud.

I think you are spot on.
But most "professionals" probably think everything revolves around pressure points, and are stuck in that kind of thinking. Like one trick ponies.

 

[andrantos]

We can only speculate why Microsoft went N-trig this time around.

I do think Microsoft sees the potential for these products marketed towards creative users. I think they really saw that with the SP2. It is disappointing to see the switch to N-trig... but as many have pointed out, it is possible Microsoft worked quite a bit with N-trig to really make the inking experience stellar (it would be in both parties interest to do so). Who knows, we may get our hands on these tablets and really not notice the difference.

But then again, maybe Microsoft's work with Adobe could be their way of asking forgiveness ("Oh, yes, we ditched Wacom but we're making it up to you for improved PS CC user experience")? That and combined with all the reports of how much better inking will be in general with this pen?

This is either Microsoft simply making an out-of-touch choice again, or Microsoft thinking things through and surprising all of us (which does happen from time to time).

 

[Bora777]

Wouldn't it be great if Microsoft released an updated Wacom Pen for the SPro and SPro2 with an extra button and Bluetooth for the OneNote feature?
If all is needed is Bluetooth connectivity, it should be easy enough for it to work on older Surface models with a new updated pen.

I don't see how that would be possible without a battery in the Wacom pen. Unlike the sensors already there, a Bluetooth chip would require its own power.

 

[Infamy79]

I noticed that too. It still has 4th gen. By the time it releases (which on the web for the i7 edition it's 8/31/2014) the broadwells will be out and make the SP3 look even more overpriced.

Broadwell was scheduled for 2015 and has only just been brought forward to late 2014, you will be lucky to get devices released by Christmas in the US, pushing it back even further for anywhere else in the world.

My first digitizer was a cheap Wacom knockoff. It has 256lvl's of pressure. It drove me up a wall! I got a Wacom Intous 2, and it was light years better. The pen was very well balanced, and the pressure sensitivity is really noticeable when your paining gradients using pressure to choose shade or opacity. So I have used 256PPL before, and thats what im basing my "hell no" opinion on. 256 simply is NOT enough in Photoshop or Zbrush.

You sure it wasn't more the fact it was a cheap Wacom knockoff compared to the levels of pressure?

But Daniel Rubino in his hands on video specifically said it's a Wacom Pen. Need official confirmation of it

Daniel Rubino is wrong

 

[jgschwandtner]

The N-trig pen may not be as bad as everyone is predicting...
A small transcript from the Engadget hands-on:
"More important than the higher pixel count, perhaps, is the new pen tech. With this generation, Microsoft ditched Wacom and instead used an N-trig active digitizer. We know, we know: This probably sounds like inside baseball to all but our most hardcore readers. In truth, though, it's a better experience. The pen, first of all, has been redesigned so that it feels more like a normal, ink-based pen. Indeed, it does feel more substantial in the hand, not that I had many complaints about the pen that came with the Surface Pro 2. Also, the screen has just enough friction that when I write on it, I feel like I'm writing on paper (or as close as you can get, anyway). On the software side, Microsoft's own OneNote app now sends your scribbles to the cloud as soon as you lay them down -- yep, kind of like how Google Drive or some such will save your work as soon as you start typing."

Hope this gives some solace to the complainers

Humbug. The problem is not the pen, it's the digitizer screen (save for the graphic artists to whom it makes a difference how many levels of pressure you have). No one keeps you from buying a better pen if you don't like the pen delivered with the Surface Pro/Surface Pro 2. I got a Bamboo from Wacom, and it has everything in feel that this new pen is supposed to have (though not an eraser or special OneNote features). However, the NTrig digitizer screen on the Latitude XT2 was an absolute piece of trash. You couldn't even read your own handwriting. Unless they made near-miraculous improvements since then, it's the digitizer that is way below Wacom.

 

[rurutia]

Humbug. The problem is not the pen, it's the digitizer screen (save for the graphic artists to whom it makes a difference how many levels of pressure you have). No one keeps you from buying a better pen if you don't like the pen delivered with the Surface Pro/Surface Pro 2. I got a Bamboo from Wacom, and it has everything in feel that this new pen is supposed to have (though not an eraser or special OneNote features). However, the NTrig digitizer screen on the Latitude XT2 was an absolute piece of trash. You couldn't even read your own handwriting. Unless they made near-miraculous improvements since then, it's the digitizer that is way below Wacom.

Don't be obtuse. When people write about the pen, they mean the overall pen experience which includes to how it translates onto the screen. One is meaningless without the other. General sentiments about NTrig pens have apparently been pretty good overall recently. Further, someone noted that Wacom's patents ended last year. So...

 

[jgschwandtner]

I don't see how that would be possible without a battery in the Wacom pen. Unlike the sensors already there, a Bluetooth chip would require its own power.

Could they do a double-tap on the Windows logo (on the computer) to launch OneNote? That would be a nice start as far as I'm concerned.

 

[rocketboy]

I think you are spot on.
But most "professionals" probably think everything revolves around pressure points, and are stuck in that kind of thinking. Like one trick ponies.

Please. Creatives (professional or not) utilizing digital tools are not stupid. The high end Wacom tools we've used for thousands of hours are a known quantity and are well regarded precisely because they do all the things that people who are not creatives on this thread are casually tossing around under "total experience". That's like saying it's ok if your mouse buttons only register half their clicks because the whole unit feels so good in your hand. For serious digital artists, pressure sensitivity is a big deal. Possibly the biggest deal.

A professional Intuos or Cintiq has a pen that has 2048 levels of pressure sensitivity as well as tilt and bearing sensitivity plus different nibs. The penabled wacoms that are on TabletPCs up to and including SP2 are already a step down from these Intuous Pro/Cintiq pens with no tilt, no replaceable nibs, and lower pressure sensitivity. You cannot take an Intuous Pro /Cintiq pen and use them on the SP2. I've tried. The Wacom technology is apparently not uniform across it's product suite. Hence the appeal of their Companion has nothing to do with whether Wacom could be on SP3. Wacom has never given the MS tablets the full breadth of their pen technology. I'd fully expect that Wacom would preserve the Intuous Pro/Cintiq technology for their own lines.

There are two things that make a solid digital art experience for an artist:
1. The ability of the pen and software and OS to keep up with rapid strokes. Minimization of lag.
2. VERY closely behind (like 1.00001) is pressure sensitivity.
3. For me, a distant third is being able to tilt the pen (which requires application software support).

If you don't paint or do line work that is dependent on varying opacities or thickness you don't have a true appreciation for what this means. So please don't come here and lecture those of us that do about being na?ve about the place of pressure sensitivity in a digital artists' toolbox. We know exactly what we're talking about. This "one trick" is an incredibly useful given how you can program a Painter or Photoshop to have it respond to many different aspects of laying down color.

Having said that, for portable sketch concept work, I've delivered solid results using the old tabletpc class wacoms with as low as 512 levels of pressure sensitivity. I'm skeptical of halving that. For my particular works I generally see anything above 1024 as extra. However, I have friends who'll insist otherwise.
One of the issues is that this would change what I produce "on the go" vs at home. I basically wouldn't be able to trust doing color finishes on something like the SP3. Just sketches or other things that don't have to be finely detailed or subtle.

 

[Dustin Hodges]

Lets keep in mind that these levels are over a less than 1mm distance. I'd be very impressed if you can tell the difference. What really matters is a smooth pressure curve for mapping what those minute details map

This was along what I was thinking. Furthermore, it feels like there is a missing frame of reference. 256 levels is indeed worse than 1024 in numbers alone, but is it really that bad? It's like saying a 16MP camera is **** because 40MP is better, when all 40MP means you can zoom more and that there is more pixels per image. Perhaps in the same way, 256 levels, at least on the Pro 3, could be more than adequate for professional artwork, and 1024 is merely the "retina" of pressure sensitivity (as in it is indeed "better" in a sense, but in reality it's no more useful than 4K resolution on a portable device. It's just more; that's all.)

Not to mention, to those who've complained about outdated N-Trig devices with a 256 level pressure sensitivity, it's possible the product was just bad, and that the 256 level pressure sensitivity had nothing to do with your experience (as in even if it had 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity it would of made no difference.)

Could they do a double-tap on the Windows logo (on the computer) to launch OneNote? That would be a nice start as far as I'm concerned.

I think it'd be better to activate by putting the pen to the display (while off) to activate OneNote, and either adding the "note" option in the charm bar or maybe having it activated with a tap and hold of the Windows Key.

---

Please. Creatives (professional or not) utilizing digital tools are not stupid. The high end Wacom tools we've used for thousands of hours are a known quality and are well regarded precisely because they do all the things that people who are not creatives on this thread are casually tossing around under "total experience". That's like saying it's ok if your mouse buttons only register half their clicks because the whole unit feels so good in your hand. For serious digital artists, pressure sensitivity is a big deal. Possibly the biggest deal.

A professional Intuos or Cintiq has a pen that has 2048 levels of pressure sensitivity as well as tilt and bearing sensitivity plus different nibs. The penabled wacoms that are on TabletPCs up to and including SP2 are already a step down from these Intuous Pro/Cintiq pens with no tilt, no replaceable nibs, and lower pressure sensitivity. You cannot take an Intuous Pro /Cintiq pen and use them on the SP2. I've tried. The Wacom technology is apparently not uniform across it's product suite. Hence the appeal of their Companion has nothing to do with whether Wacom could be on SP3. Wacom has never given the MS tablets the full breadth of their pen technology. I'd fully expect that Wacom would preserve the Intuous Pro/Cintiq technology for their own lines.

There are two things that make a solid digital art experience for an artist:
1. The ability of the pen and software and OS to keep up with rapid strokes. Minimization of lag.
2. VERY closely behind (like 1.00001) is pressure sensitivity.
3. For me, a distant third is being able to tilt the pen (which requires application software support).

If you don't paint or do line work that is dependent on varying opacities or thickness you don't have a true appreciation for what this means. So please don't come here and lecture those of us that do about being na?ve about the place of pressure sensitivity in a digital artists' toolbox. We know exactly what we're talking about. This "one trick" is an incredibly useful given how you can program a Painter or Photoshop to have it respond to many different aspects of laying down color.

Having said that, for portable sketch concept work, I've delivered solid results using the old tabletpc class wacoms with as low as 512 levels of pressure sensitivity. I'm skeptical of halving that. For my particular works I generally see anything above 1024 as extra. However, I have friends who'll insist otherwise.
One of the issues is that this would change what I produce "on the go" vs at home. I basically wouldn't be able to trust doing color finishes on something like the SP3. Just sketches or other things that don't have to be finely detailed or subtle.

We're not trying to toss things under "total experience". What we're saying is that pressure sensitivity isn't everything. For instance, based on currently available information, the "The ability of the pen, software, and OS to keep up with rapid strokes. Minimization of lag." Is perfect on the Pro3, with absolutely 0 delay in strokes, based on the presentation Microsoft gave. Furthermore, we are saying pressure sensitivity is like megapixels (or I am, at least). It's only "better" to a point. A 40MP camera is better than 16MP on paper, but if the 40MP uses a crappy lens, poor software, or cheap equipment, its going to greatly diminish the quality, while a 16MP camera with advancements in camera technology such as low light photography and image stability, it will greatly improved the quality. Pressure sensitivity is only one of many factors in pen input performance. Just because your average Wacom device quality and level of use relies on pressure sensitivity, does not mean that the Surface Pro 3 is the same way. So what; Microsoft didn't use the "industry standard". They also likely didn't use "stock" components, if the technology is anything like the rest of the device, being custom made to fit, and I'd bet it is. If anything, this device has the potential to be just as good, if not better, than previous FeelIT devices.

Our sole point, though, is you're dooming the product before its even in shelves! You're not even giving it a chance due to either a name or a number. A device like the Pro3 at least deserves a chance. I doubt Microsoft would be saying it and software like PhotoShop were like Peanut butter & chocolate in a blog post, if it weren't useful for artists needs. They're touting the pen technology as a step forward, not a step back.

So give it a chance. Best Buy or a Microsoft Store are likely to have display models to try upon release.

 

[Reflexx]

I think you are spot on.
But most "professionals" probably think everything revolves around pressure points, and are stuck in that kind of thinking. Like one trick ponies.

It's funny how non-professionals suddenly think they know more about professional requirements than professionals. LoL

 

[neonspark]

I like how some who don't use pens for anything artistic tell the art guys 256 is enough for you...

 

[Nimdock]

I am not an artist (my code is my art ) and what I see here (or suspect I see) is a bunch of non-artists telling artists that have been doing this kind of thing for years how what they know by experience is erroneous.

If they tell me they need at least 1024 levels of pressure I believe them. At least until they themselves can test the new pen and come back and say "hey, what do you know, we were wrong, this pen is magic and is able to replicate the same results with less levels of pressure".

 

[Reflexx]

We can only speculate why Microsoft went N-trig this time around.

I do think Microsoft sees the potential for these products marketed towards creative users. I think they really saw that with the SP2. It is disappointing to see the switch to N-trig... but as many have pointed out, it is possible Microsoft worked quite a bit with N-trig to really make the inking experience stellar (it would be in both parties interest to do so). Who knows, we may get our hands on these tablets and really not notice the difference.

But then again, maybe Microsoft's work with Adobe could be their way of asking forgiveness ("Oh, yes, we ditched Wacom but we're making it up to you for improved PS CC user experience")? That and combined with all the reports of how much better inking will be in general with this pen?

This is either Microsoft simply making an out-of-touch choice again, or Microsoft thinking things through and surprising all of us (which does happen from time to time).

Keep in mind that Adobe isn't the only player in town. While it would be good to have Adobe fully compatible, there's also other software that might not be.

 

[jhoff80]

Having said that, for portable sketch concept work, I've delivered solid results using the old tabletpc class wacoms with as low as 512 levels of pressure sensitivity. I'm skeptical of halving that.

I'm curious which old tablet PC you used. It's only in the last few years that Wacom tablet PCs have moved past 256 levels of pressure sensitivity. And I've read that those extra levels on the tablet PC digitizers (not talking about Intuos or Cintiq) are done through software interpolation anyway... though we don't really have any way of confirming that.

 

[andrantos]

I don't want to get all worked up over the levels of pressure. Is there a "standard" for this type of thing or is it up to the hardware manufacturer to decide?

As another poster pointed it out, it really will come down to the feel in hand. I'll be able to compare directly an hp touchsmart which is wacom and has either 512 or 1024 levels of pressure.

I do remember having an N-trig based gateway convertible and it actually had a fairly nice feel in apps that did support pressure sensitivity.

Willing to give Microsoft and N-trig the benefit of the doubt and hope they prove us wrong.

 

[Reflexx]

I don't want to get all worked up over the levels of pressure. Is there a "standard" for this type of thing or is it up to the hardware manufacturer to decide?

As another poster pointed it out, it really will come down to the feel in hand. I'll be able to compare directly an hp touchsmart which is wacom and has either 512 or 1024 levels of pressure.

I do remember having an N-trig based gateway convertible and it actually had a fairly nice feel in apps that did support pressure sensitivity.

Willing to give Microsoft and N-trig the benefit of the doubt and hope they prove us wrong.

I definitely want to see how this new N-trig feels.

Levels are important, but some of the other things that this brings to the table are pretty nice. I especially like that they're supposedly will be almost no space between the pen tip and the "ink" on screen. I'm just skeptical about how good it can be with only 256 levels of pressure sensitivity.
1024 is pretty standard for a minimum now. I personally don't feel to much of a difference if I play with 2048, but I'm not doing 2D as much as many others are.
I've been waiting and hoping for that perfect tablet, and this gets so close but misses on a major point.
It will be more than enough for 99% of people out there though. It's just that I feel like Wacom has been over charging us for years and I want them to have to compete against something that will force them to rethink their pricing.

 

[stephen_az]

Wouldn't it make sense to test it before ripping it?

N-trig pens may typically have heavy AAA batteries, but does this? The cheaper digitizer you once used may have been horrible, but does that automatically mean this one is also of the cheaper variety? Just to be clear, I know absolutely nothing about artist's requirements insofar as pressure sensitivity is concerned. However, I do know that many people end up associating certain properties to certain technical specs, where there just isn't any real relationship at all.

I won't list all the examples. Instead I'll just ask if it could have been, that your poor experience with the cheap 256 step digitizer was mainly a result of it being cheap, and not a result of the pressure sensitivity itself? I have no idea. I could be way off. I'm just saying it might make sense to objectively test this stuff before jumping to conclusions... particularly if negative reactions are triggered primarily by a brand name and not by experience using the product.

Honestly, some of us really do not need to test it to know it is a deal killer. Even if it works spectacularly in Photoshop, which I doubt given the sloppiness and laziness of Adobe in coding over the past few years, there are other business applications out there which are now mainstream (and very expensive) that know of no existence beyond Wacom. Drafting and GIS applications come to mind first. This may be the best pen the world has ever seen and use of a proprietary design still makes it a niche product that I can't sell to the tech people in my profession. More to the point it makes it a product that, if I can use it at all, will involve compromises in workflow.

Sorry but this isn't idle speculation, it is simply a fact of life regarding where the markets are and how fast (and for what reasons) they advance change. Surface Pro 3 would need to be an original IPad level runaway success to see bona fide adoption in some pen/digitizer reliant applications within a year. Even at that, in an era of cost savings and lean development budgets, these companies need to design for Wacom digitizer technology for existing hardware that won't be updated for many to Windows 7 for another year and Apple products still justifiably loved by many graphics/design people. For me Microsoft has designed an otherwise exceptional product, although I still like the smaller form factor, but then threw in something that hamstrings it. There are reasons they went with a Wacom pen with Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2 and nothing has happened to change that particular technological landscape. It really may be a wonderful device and a great pen but on the digitizer front, I cannot justify Surface Pro 3. It would be Surface Pro 4 or 5 before it could even be in the cards. If there was one thing they should not shift fro industry standard, this was absolutely it.