Should I just wait for the surface pro 4

vlad0

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This is wrong. Broadwell is just another incremental step that is marginally better. The device in the video is running a lower power Broadwell chipset that is basically the newer version intel Atom. It is slower than the 4th gen i3 processor in the SP3.

The ultrabook line for the Broadwell chips will NOT be in devices this sleek because they will still require fans (not to mention that unless they switch to something other than USB which prohibits a device this thin). Of course they will be fast, have better battery life, and have better graphics capability. Light users will only be able to detect a difference in battery life...so unless you plan on using the machine to game or render, no reason to wait.

Incremental ? Broadwell falls on a "tick" which means die shrink, in this case from 22nm to 14nm, which is super important from a battery savings perspective..

Here, this might help you: Intel Tick-Tock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as far as Broadwell

Intel announces Broadwell processors and new mobile platform

"Broadwell processors will be built on 14nm manufacturing technology, and have such enhancements as 20% - 40% better performance, 60% lower TDP and about twice smaller footprint compared to their Haswell predecessors. "

The Y chips are said to be running on 4.5W compared to the 14W we have in the SP3...

Launch date is sept/oct

Intel 5Y10, 5Y10a and 5Y70 Broadwell CPUs to launch in September/October

The asus machine showen above runs on a CORE M chip, not ATOM.. the new Atom chips are not due until next year, code named Cherry Trail, based on Broadwell's 14nm die.

The T300 Chi is based on this reference design by Intel, which DOES NOT run an Atom chip, it runs a Broadwell Core chip

The reference design is this one

fanless_mobilePC_reference_design_thumb.jpg
cm_i_ww_rgb_3000_edited_thumb1.jpg


"The announced reference design of a fanless hybrid system has 12.5" display. Without the keyboard, the system is 7.2mm thin, and weighs only 670 grams. Mobile devices, based on the reference design, will be available later this year."

So, a fanless Surface Pro is pretty much a sure thing, and it will happen sooner rather than later. Like I said, SP3 looks like Broadwell hardware, but Intel messed up with their schedule.. the original schedule had Broadwell Y shipping in the 1st half of 2014.

The new chips will allow for either.. a thinner design, or more room for a larger battery combined with lower power consumption. The SP3's battery should be able to run for at least 10-11hrs if it had Broadwell on board instead of haswell
 

tee74

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dont play the waiting game, just get the surface pro 3. thats what im going to get my wife. even tho her laptop is already an i7 and is pretty slim. surface pro 3 is more travel friendly.
 

darthhen

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I agree with everything you said except for this. I'm a professional videographer and use a prosumer cam with dual card slots. I have never had a failure yet. I think the critical part is buying a good SD card, which does lead us back to cost. And, even though a good SD card is cheaper than upgrading to the 128GB SP3, it would be a wiser decision to spend the extra and get the 128GB SP3. So, in essence, I agree with what you said :smile:

Editguy1900, I respect your comment. Personally, I would not trust flash memory with important data. Christopher mentioned his girl was going to use it for school. So she'll likely be keeping homework assignments on it. Flash memory technology in general is pretty robust and has very low failure rates, which you noted based on your personal experiences. But on my side, I had dealt with flash memory failures in my line of work. Although only once, but that once was enough. :sweaty:
 

darthhen

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Christopher, I would suggest you can try using her laptop. What I find is that non-techie people (not saying your girl is not) sometimes doesn't know a problem exist even if it is right in front of them. I've seen people complain about how slow their computer is when they are sitting right in front of it. But afterwards, if you talk to them, they would say their computer is fine. They don't associate the slow-ness as an issue/problem. At some point, when I show them another computer that's faster and responsive, they go "WOW!!!" So my point is that try using her computer for a bit. If you feel that it is slow and doesn't provide her with a good user experience, just get her a new one.

My $0.05.
 

vlad0

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dont play the waiting game, just get the surface pro 3. thats what im going to get my wife. even tho her laptop is already an i7 and is pretty slim. surface pro 3 is more travel friendly.

Why spent $1000+ on a machine with a CPU architecture which wasn't meant for that particular form factor ? Broadwell is the first "real" mobile core chip from Intel which is designed for those hybrid form factors.. If we were a year away from Intel shipping them, I would say yes.. go for it.. but we are 4-5 months away.

Personally, I wouldn't spend the money right now.
 

anon(5590893)

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They just announced the surface pro 3 and it isn't even available in shops. But people start the good old "should i wait for xyz" game. Maybe the pro 4 will have a "beam me up, scotty" device and provide you with a fresh cup-cake every morning. May be.
If you need a new machine now get a surface pro 3. If it's your only pc or/and if you are price sensitive get a good ordinary laptop.
 

JamesPTao

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Do you have the surface pro 2?
My buddy does and is very happy with it. I plan on getting either Fujitsu q series or surface pro 2 for my wife and beefed up 7 series for me. A surface would be nice but I don't need one and would rather have a powerhouse laptop with interchangeable 2nd battery bay that can be switched with an extra drive. (but I frequently edit raw 21 mp pictures in lightroom and unlike 21 mp jpg it takes quite a bit to edit smoothly.
 

ytrewq

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As between taking the plunge on an SP3 and waiting for the SP4:

1) The SP3 is an amazing device. I've been at the MSFT store, and I've played with it. It is as good as advertised. Fast (I used the i5 version), phenominal screen, pen is IMHO an upgrade over the Wacom (my wife has an SP2), and the keyboard is a major upgrade. I think the trackpad solves the problems of the previous generations. 1-3/4 pounds, thin, light, and powerful. If you need a device, and if this form factor makes sense for your needs, then you won't regret the SP3.

2) Broadwell will be an improvement. I think it will be a bigger improvement than some here are suggesting. Whether it's worth waiting is a judgment call, but here are some factors to consider:

a. Upside #1: Lighter/thinner/longer battery life due to Broadwell. Broadwell can reduce power to 4.5W. Which means they can probably make the SP4 without a fan (although that's uncertain right now). If they can make it fanless, then you are cutting power consumption in an even bigger way. Plus, you don't need as big of a battery, which makes it lighter and thinner again. If they can make a fanless SP4, then I predict a device that is under 1.5 lbs and somewhere around .3 inches thick. That means cutting 15-20% off the weight. That can make a big difference, especially when you are holding it in one hand.

b. Uspide #2: Probably a spot to put the stylus. If they can eliminate the fan, that creates significant space in the device, and should enable MS to have a spot for the stylus. IMHO, the loop on the keyboard for the SP3 is functional but hokey.

c. Upside #3: Perhaps a bit faster. Note that Broadwell is not designed to be faster, just smaller, due to Intel's tick/tock product cycle. However, also note that the SP3s are designed to run on only 2 cores, to keep power consumption down. It is possible that the lower power consumption of Broadwell would allow MS to use a 4 core Broadwell rather than the 2 core Haswells. If the do, then you might get a speed improvement for some applications. But don't count on it. Most applications won't benefit, and I think it is unlikely that they will move to 4 cores. For a device like this, keeping power consumption low is more important than the modest performance improvement you would get in some programs by moving to 4 cores.

d. Downside #1, 2, and 3, all combined: Delay and waiting. Do not put much stock in those who speculate that the SP4 will be available for the holidays. Sure, Intel predicts that Broadwell devices will be available for Christmas, but that doesn't mean that the SP4 will be. There are many reasons why it will not. The chief reason is product cycles. The SP2 became available in late October, 2013; the SP3 becomes available in late June, 2014. That's an eight-month cycle. That is very aggressive, even in the fast-moving technology industry. To release a product in late November would mean that the SP3 only has a FIVE MONTH product cycle. That's just ridiculous. Not ridiculously awesome; just ridiculously nonsensical. Expect that the eight month cycle we saw for the SP3 was on the fast side, and that the SP4 will be at least that far away and probably farther. Which means end of February, at the earliest.

So, is it worth waiting eight months to get a device that is 1/4 lb lighter, .03" thinner, somewhat better battery life, and a good place for the stylus? If so, then you should wait. If not, then you should join the rest of us who are eager to fork over some good money to buy a really nice device that is 1-3/4 lbs light, .033" thin, fast, powerful, with a beautiful screen, a very nice pen input, and a much improved keyboard/trackpad.

There's no right answer, but those are some things to think about.
 

hopmedic

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LMAO, good luck with that. 1: The Surface line in general (RT/2/Pro/Pro 2/Pro 3) are all notorious for being some of the hardest devices to open.
True. Here's the ifixit article:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+2+Teardown/18604/
I've taken apart MANY laptops for various repairs, but I will not be opening a Surface device.

2: Everything in any tablet is soldered onto the motherboard. Unless you have the precision of a machine, it doesn't matter how amazing your soldering skills are.
False. I have changed MANY hard drives in laptops, I have added RAM to several, and I have added or changed WiFi cards, BT cards, changed out bad fans, and even changed the video cable in one. And no, I do not run a PC repair store. I used to be the only IT guy in a factory in a Fortune 100 company, though.

Chances are, you can even upgrade her processor.
No. You will not be changing the processor.
 
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Uncled1023

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False. I have changed MANY hard drives in laptops, I have added RAM to several, and I have added or changed WiFi cards, BT cards, changed out bad fans, and even changed the video cable in one. And no, I do not run a PC repair store. I used to be the only IT guy in a factory in a Fortune 100 company, though.

He said tablet, not laptop. Vastly different component design.
 

nasellok

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I am am going to wait until they get an external docking station with GPU built in (that is until my laptop dies) - hopefully it is something in the works - it would be perfect for me, as an architect - the ability to take all of my software everywhere I go, but when home / at the office, I can dock it and pump out some serious stuff.
 

vlad0

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As between taking the plunge on an SP3 and waiting for the SP4:

1) The SP3 is an amazing device. I've been at the MSFT store, and I've played with it. It is as good as advertised. Fast (I used the i5 version), phenominal screen, pen is IMHO an upgrade over the Wacom (my wife has an SP2), and the keyboard is a major upgrade. I think the trackpad solves the problems of the previous generations. 1-3/4 pounds, thin, light, and powerful. If you need a device, and if this form factor makes sense for your needs, then you won't regret the SP3.

2) Broadwell will be an improvement. I think it will be a bigger improvement than some here are suggesting. Whether it's worth waiting is a judgment call, but here are some factors to consider:

a. Upside #1: Lighter/thinner/longer battery life due to Broadwell. Broadwell can reduce power to 4.5W. Which means they can probably make the SP4 without a fan (although that's uncertain right now). If they can make it fanless, then you are cutting power consumption in an even bigger way. Plus, you don't need as big of a battery, which makes it lighter and thinner again. If they can make a fanless SP4, then I predict a device that is under 1.5 lbs and somewhere around .3 inches thick. That means cutting 15-20% off the weight. That can make a big difference, especially when you are holding it in one hand.

b. Uspide #2: Probably a spot to put the stylus. If they can eliminate the fan, that creates significant space in the device, and should enable MS to have a spot for the stylus. IMHO, the loop on the keyboard for the SP3 is functional but hokey.

c. Upside #3: Perhaps a bit faster. Note that Broadwell is not designed to be faster, just smaller, due to Intel's tick/tock product cycle. However, also note that the SP3s are designed to run on only 2 cores, to keep power consumption down. It is possible that the lower power consumption of Broadwell would allow MS to use a 4 core Broadwell rather than the 2 core Haswells. If the do, then you might get a speed improvement for some applications. But don't count on it. Most applications won't benefit, and I think it is unlikely that they will move to 4 cores. For a device like this, keeping power consumption low is more important than the modest performance improvement you would get in some programs by moving to 4 cores.

d. Downside #1, 2, and 3, all combined: Delay and waiting. Do not put much stock in those who speculate that the SP4 will be available for the holidays. Sure, Intel predicts that Broadwell devices will be available for Christmas, but that doesn't mean that the SP4 will be. There are many reasons why it will not. The chief reason is product cycles. The SP2 became available in late October, 2013; the SP3 becomes available in late June, 2014. That's an eight-month cycle. That is very aggressive, even in the fast-moving technology industry. To release a product in late November would mean that the SP3 only has a FIVE MONTH product cycle. That's just ridiculous. Not ridiculously awesome; just ridiculously nonsensical. Expect that the eight month cycle we saw for the SP3 was on the fast side, and that the SP4 will be at least that far away and probably farther. Which means end of February, at the earliest.

So, is it worth waiting eight months to get a device that is 1/4 lb lighter, .03" thinner, somewhat better battery life, and a good place for the stylus? If so, then you should wait. If not, then you should join the rest of us who are eager to fork over some good money to buy a really nice device that is 1-3/4 lbs light, .033" thin, fast, powerful, with a beautiful screen, a very nice pen input, and a much improved keyboard/trackpad.

There's no right answer, but those are some things to think about.

I don't think you will see a fanless 4 core Core-M surface ... if it doesn't have a fan, it will be running one of the 4.5 watt models which are all dual core.. still plenty of processing power for most of us.
 

Pete The Penguin

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I don't have it in front of me right now but I'm pretty sure she has some Pentium dual core processor. She's never had a single complaint with it ever. Which is why I say i3 is really all she needs. She's not gaming or running intense programs at all. I just think paying that much money just to get a processor she'll never take advantage of for more hard drive space is overkill. Maybe after the surface pro 3 is released depending on how hard it is to take it apart I might be able to update the hard drive myself.

I'd stick an SSD in her laptop, maybe max out the RAM and make sure Windows has all it's updates.
 

amb9800

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Incremental ? Broadwell falls on a "tick" which means die shrink, in this case from 22nm to 14nm, which is super important from a battery savings perspective..

Here, this might help you: Intel Tick-Tock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as far as Broadwell

Intel announces Broadwell processors and new mobile platform

"Broadwell processors will be built on 14nm manufacturing technology, and have such enhancements as 20% - 40% better performance, 60% lower TDP and about twice smaller footprint compared to their Haswell predecessors. "

The Y chips are said to be running on 4.5W compared to the 14W we have in the SP3...

Launch date is sept/oct

Intel 5Y10, 5Y10a and 5Y70 Broadwell CPUs to launch in September/October

The asus machine showen above runs on a CORE M chip, not ATOM.. the new Atom chips are not due until next year, code named Cherry Trail, based on Broadwell's 14nm die.

The T300 Chi is based on this reference design by Intel, which DOES NOT run an Atom chip, it runs a Broadwell Core chip

The reference design is this one

http://ultrabooks.carrypad.com/files/2014/06/fanless_mobilePC_reference_design_thumb.jpghttp://ultrabooks.carrypad.com/files/2014/06/cm_i_ww_rgb_3000_edited_thumb1.jpg

"The announced reference design of a fanless hybrid system has 12.5" display. Without the keyboard, the system is 7.2mm thin, and weighs only 670 grams. Mobile devices, based on the reference design, will be available later this year."

So, a fanless Surface Pro is pretty much a sure thing, and it will happen sooner rather than later. Like I said, SP3 looks like Broadwell hardware, but Intel messed up with their schedule.. the original schedule had Broadwell Y shipping in the 1st half of 2014.

The new chips will allow for either.. a thinner design, or more room for a larger battery combined with lower power consumption. The SP3's battery should be able to run for at least 10-11hrs if it had Broadwell on board instead of haswell
That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. The Broadwell U chips will have TDPs of 15W and 28W (with GT2/GT3 graphics respectively), which is in the same range as Haswell U (which are in SP2/3).

Haswell Y chips have a TDP of 11.5W TDP and "SDP" down to 4.5W (e.g. i5-4032Y). With Broadwell Y, Intel is targeting a 30% reduction in power consumption at the same performance level vs. Haswell Y:
AnandTech | Intel Demos 14nm Broadwell: Up to 30% Lower Power than Haswell

Haswell Y never took off (the i3 SP3 will be one of the few shipping products), and Broadwell introduces a physically smaller package, so the Y-series chips will have a much better chance of scoring tablet design wins now.

The Y-series chips are the headline product for Broadwell (being featured in Intel's reference design and Asus' prototype at Computex) and are shipping first, but Microsoft will not be able to use those without a significant drop in performance vs. SP2/3. Broadwell U will ship slightly later, so it won't hit shipping products till sometime in early 2015 -- hence MS probably made the right choice in shipping SP3 right away with Haswell U for now, rather than waiting a year.

So in sum, if you're looking for something thinner/lighter/fanless at lower performance levels than SP2/3, then Asus and others might have a solution for you by the holiday season. MS is not going to make the Surface Pro fanless anytime soon, though, as Intel's not there yet.
 
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