10-07-2014 01:24 PM
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  1. nasellok's Avatar
    I am am going to wait until they get an external docking station with GPU built in (that is until my laptop dies) - hopefully it is something in the works - it would be perfect for me, as an architect - the ability to take all of my software everywhere I go, but when home / at the office, I can dock it and pump out some serious stuff.
    06-11-2014 04:52 PM
  2. hopmedic's Avatar
    He said tablet, not laptop. Vastly different component design.
    My mistake - I saw laptop. Guess I need my eyes checked.
    06-11-2014 04:53 PM
  3. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    My mistake - I saw laptop. Guess I need my eyes checked.
    Yeah, probably all that working on microscopic laptop parts.
    06-11-2014 05:24 PM
  4. vlad0's Avatar
    As between taking the plunge on an SP3 and waiting for the SP4:

    1) The SP3 is an amazing device. I've been at the MSFT store, and I've played with it. It is as good as advertised. Fast (I used the i5 version), phenominal screen, pen is IMHO an upgrade over the Wacom (my wife has an SP2), and the keyboard is a major upgrade. I think the trackpad solves the problems of the previous generations. 1-3/4 pounds, thin, light, and powerful. If you need a device, and if this form factor makes sense for your needs, then you won't regret the SP3.

    2) Broadwell will be an improvement. I think it will be a bigger improvement than some here are suggesting. Whether it's worth waiting is a judgment call, but here are some factors to consider:

    a. Upside #1: Lighter/thinner/longer battery life due to Broadwell. Broadwell can reduce power to 4.5W. Which means they can probably make the SP4 without a fan (although that's uncertain right now). If they can make it fanless, then you are cutting power consumption in an even bigger way. Plus, you don't need as big of a battery, which makes it lighter and thinner again. If they can make a fanless SP4, then I predict a device that is under 1.5 lbs and somewhere around .3 inches thick. That means cutting 15-20% off the weight. That can make a big difference, especially when you are holding it in one hand.

    b. Uspide #2: Probably a spot to put the stylus. If they can eliminate the fan, that creates significant space in the device, and should enable MS to have a spot for the stylus. IMHO, the loop on the keyboard for the SP3 is functional but hokey.

    c. Upside #3: Perhaps a bit faster. Note that Broadwell is not designed to be faster, just smaller, due to Intel's tick/tock product cycle. However, also note that the SP3s are designed to run on only 2 cores, to keep power consumption down. It is possible that the lower power consumption of Broadwell would allow MS to use a 4 core Broadwell rather than the 2 core Haswells. If the do, then you might get a speed improvement for some applications. But don't count on it. Most applications won't benefit, and I think it is unlikely that they will move to 4 cores. For a device like this, keeping power consumption low is more important than the modest performance improvement you would get in some programs by moving to 4 cores.

    d. Downside #1, 2, and 3, all combined: Delay and waiting. Do not put much stock in those who speculate that the SP4 will be available for the holidays. Sure, Intel predicts that Broadwell devices will be available for Christmas, but that doesn't mean that the SP4 will be. There are many reasons why it will not. The chief reason is product cycles. The SP2 became available in late October, 2013; the SP3 becomes available in late June, 2014. That's an eight-month cycle. That is very aggressive, even in the fast-moving technology industry. To release a product in late November would mean that the SP3 only has a FIVE MONTH product cycle. That's just ridiculous. Not ridiculously awesome; just ridiculously nonsensical. Expect that the eight month cycle we saw for the SP3 was on the fast side, and that the SP4 will be at least that far away and probably farther. Which means end of February, at the earliest.

    So, is it worth waiting eight months to get a device that is 1/4 lb lighter, .03" thinner, somewhat better battery life, and a good place for the stylus? If so, then you should wait. If not, then you should join the rest of us who are eager to fork over some good money to buy a really nice device that is 1-3/4 lbs light, .033" thin, fast, powerful, with a beautiful screen, a very nice pen input, and a much improved keyboard/trackpad.

    There's no right answer, but those are some things to think about.
    I don't think you will see a fanless 4 core Core-M surface ... if it doesn't have a fan, it will be running one of the 4.5 watt models which are all dual core.. still plenty of processing power for most of us.
    06-11-2014 05:44 PM
  5. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    I don't have it in front of me right now but I'm pretty sure she has some Pentium dual core processor. She's never had a single complaint with it ever. Which is why I say i3 is really all she needs. She's not gaming or running intense programs at all. I just think paying that much money just to get a processor she'll never take advantage of for more hard drive space is overkill. Maybe after the surface pro 3 is released depending on how hard it is to take it apart I might be able to update the hard drive myself.
    I'd stick an SSD in her laptop, maybe max out the RAM and make sure Windows has all it's updates.
    06-12-2014 11:28 AM
  6. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    I swear there's always a few cornballs on every thread. Troll somewhere else.
    You're not allowed to say the 'T' word. You have to say mythical Norwegian creature :p
    06-12-2014 11:32 AM
  7. hopmedic's Avatar
    You're not allowed to say the 'T' word. You have to say mythical Norwegian creature :p
    Are they really Norwegian?
    Pete The Penguin likes this.
    06-12-2014 01:10 PM
  8. amb9800's Avatar
    Incremental ? Broadwell falls on a "tick" which means die shrink, in this case from 22nm to 14nm, which is super important from a battery savings perspective..

    Here, this might help you: Intel Tick-Tock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    as far as Broadwell

    Intel announces Broadwell processors and new mobile platform

    "Broadwell processors will be built on 14nm manufacturing technology, and have such enhancements as 20% - 40% better performance, 60% lower TDP and about twice smaller footprint compared to their Haswell predecessors. "

    The Y chips are said to be running on 4.5W compared to the 14W we have in the SP3...

    Launch date is sept/oct

    Intel 5Y10, 5Y10a and 5Y70 Broadwell CPUs to launch in September/October

    The asus machine showen above runs on a CORE M chip, not ATOM.. the new Atom chips are not due until next year, code named Cherry Trail, based on Broadwell's 14nm die.

    The T300 Chi is based on this reference design by Intel, which DOES NOT run an Atom chip, it runs a Broadwell Core chip

    The reference design is this one

    http://ultrabooks.carrypad.com/files...sign_thumb.jpghttp://ultrabooks.carrypad.com/files...ted_thumb1.jpg

    "The announced reference design of a fanless hybrid system has 12.5" display. Without the keyboard, the system is 7.2mm thin, and weighs only 670 grams. Mobile devices, based on the reference design, will be available later this year."

    So, a fanless Surface Pro is pretty much a sure thing, and it will happen sooner rather than later. Like I said, SP3 looks like Broadwell hardware, but Intel messed up with their schedule.. the original schedule had Broadwell Y shipping in the 1st half of 2014.

    The new chips will allow for either.. a thinner design, or more room for a larger battery combined with lower power consumption. The SP3's battery should be able to run for at least 10-11hrs if it had Broadwell on board instead of haswell
    That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. The Broadwell U chips will have TDPs of 15W and 28W (with GT2/GT3 graphics respectively), which is in the same range as Haswell U (which are in SP2/3).

    Haswell Y chips have a TDP of 11.5W TDP and "SDP" down to 4.5W (e.g. i5-4032Y). With Broadwell Y, Intel is targeting a 30% reduction in power consumption at the same performance level vs. Haswell Y:
    AnandTech | Intel Demos 14nm Broadwell: Up to 30% Lower Power than Haswell

    Haswell Y never took off (the i3 SP3 will be one of the few shipping products), and Broadwell introduces a physically smaller package, so the Y-series chips will have a much better chance of scoring tablet design wins now.

    The Y-series chips are the headline product for Broadwell (being featured in Intel's reference design and Asus' prototype at Computex) and are shipping first, but Microsoft will not be able to use those without a significant drop in performance vs. SP2/3. Broadwell U will ship slightly later, so it won't hit shipping products till sometime in early 2015 -- hence MS probably made the right choice in shipping SP3 right away with Haswell U for now, rather than waiting a year.

    So in sum, if you're looking for something thinner/lighter/fanless at lower performance levels than SP2/3, then Asus and others might have a solution for you by the holiday season. MS is not going to make the Surface Pro fanless anytime soon, though, as Intel's not there yet.
    Last edited by amb9800; 06-12-2014 at 03:21 PM.
    v0lum3 and photobriangray like this.
    06-12-2014 02:50 PM
  9. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    Are they really Norwegian?
    I believe so, watch the movie 'Troll Hunter' then you'll know.
    06-12-2014 08:31 PM
  10. lamblumo's Avatar
    I believe so, watch the movie 'Troll Hunter' then you'll know.
    ,
    06-12-2014 08:33 PM
  11. Dave Drouin's Avatar
    I'm in the same place. My laptop is 8 years old and i really want one of these though. sigh..... I see the broadwell chip coming by end of year though which will most likely make the SP4 a true fan-less device, which in my eye a tablet should be. My guess is all the vendors will jump on the fanless bandwagon, probably sooner than MS with an SP4. Maybe SP4 will be out for the holidays?
    06-13-2014 03:32 PM
  12. vlad0's Avatar
    Broadwell surface for the holiday season is optimistic, though, not impossible.

    Broadwell + LTE = a more future proof product overall

    I will skip this one, my Asus u33j will suffice for a bit longer. I blame the internetz for keeping me informed about tech development.

    I tend to buy new laptops at Intel's "tick" time frame and skip the "tock" , but this time it will be hard since tock is supposed to intro DDR4 memory.. but still, not that big of a deal for me. Dropping power consumption is way more important.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock
    06-13-2014 06:47 PM
  13. ytrewq's Avatar
    I'm in the same place. My laptop is 8 years old and i really want one of these though. sigh..... I see the broadwell chip coming by end of year though which will most likely make the SP4 a true fan-less device, which in my eye a tablet should be. My guess is all the vendors will jump on the fanless bandwagon, probably sooner than MS with an SP4. Maybe SP4 will be out for the holidays?
    While it is technically possible for MS to release SP4 with Broadwell by year-end, it would be foolish from a commercial perspective. A holiday release would mean that the SP4 hits the shelves only five months after the SP3. That's a ridiculously short product cycle. Some people have expressed frustration that the SP2 was outdated so quickly, and it was available 8 months before the SP3. 8 months is still an extremely short cycle. 8 months would put the SP4 on shelves at the end of February at the earliest.
    06-13-2014 06:57 PM
  14. kevinn206's Avatar
    Broadwell surface for the holiday season is optimistic, though, not impossible.

    Broadwell + LTE = a more future proof product overall

    I will skip this one, my Asus u33j will suffice for a bit longer. I blame the internetz for keeping me informed about tech development.

    I tend to buy new laptops at Intel's "tick" time frame and skip the "tock" , but this time it will be hard since tock is supposed to intro DDR4 memory.. but still, not that big of a deal for me. Dropping power consumption is way more important.

    Intel Tick-Tock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That would be my ideal configuration. It's strange that MS is targeting businesses for the SP3 but delays LTE capability. Even the SP2 until now still doesn't have integrated LTE. I have cellphone service with Tmobile, so we get 1 GB/month free of tablet LTE free until end of 2014 and then 200 MB/month afterward. Not a bad deal since I can still tether with my cell phone.
    06-13-2014 10:36 PM
  15. vlad0's Avatar
    That would be my ideal configuration. It's strange that MS is targeting businesses for the SP3 but delays LTE capability. Even the SP2 until now still doesn't have integrated LTE. I have cellphone service with Tmobile, so we get 1 GB/month free of tablet LTE free until end of 2014 and then 200 MB/month afterward. Not a bad deal since I can still tether with my cell phone.
    Yeah, its is strange but I think they main two reasons are

    1. Intel. They still don't have a core chip with built in LTE radio. Putting a separate LTE chip would increase battery consumption and add an extra component to the motherboard, it would also require separate drivers, etc.

    Broadwell doesn't look like it will have built in radio as well, but it might play nicer with 3rd party chips.. the Asus 300 Chi has an LTE option, which is promising.

    2. Design. Having an all metal casing would block the LTE signal to the device too much. Its not exactly as bad as smartphones where you have a very tiny screen, which could be used as an outlet, but still.. having only parts of the screen side open to LTE radio waves is not ideal.

    To integrate the current gen antenna properly you need plastic, which is what they did on the Surface 2 LTE



    There is a plastic bar at the top of the device



    The same would need to happen to the Surface 3 pro

    Now, since they got Nokia's tablet designs, they are all about radio connectivity and antenna placement. Their work on the metal Nokia N8 was outstanding.. pretty much everyone copied the antenna design from that. So maybe they can take a closer look at their stuff and see what they can do.

    Or maybe just go full high quality plastic and be done with it.

    The Asus 300 chi which I mentioned is a question mark for now. The unit they had on display was all metal, but we don't know if that particular one had LTE radio built in.
    06-14-2014 12:16 AM
  16. smoheath's Avatar
    The surface pro 1,2 and 3 have that plastic bit too.

    Here it is on the pro 3,



    Sent from my Surface Pro 2 using Tapatalk


    Sent from my Surface Pro 2 using Tapatalk
    vlad0 likes this.
    06-14-2014 01:40 AM
  17. latempete's Avatar
    The surface pro 1,2 and 3 have that plastic bit too.

    Here it is on the pro 3,

    http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/y4uzuja7.jpg

    Sent from my Surface Pro 2 using Tapatalk


    Sent from my Surface Pro 2 using Tapatalk
    I just handled one today at Best Buy. I was all over it for a good half-hour and I'm am 99.9% sure that entire case is metal.
    06-14-2014 02:05 AM
  18. smoheath's Avatar
    It has to have the plastic piece at the top for the Wi-Fi antennas. If you look at the picture I posted there is a slightly darker gray part at the top that spans about 80% of the device. That is the plastic. If you didn't notice it, then well done Microsoft for making it seamless. It doesn't come down as far as the other surface models.
    06-14-2014 09:27 AM
  19. vlad0's Avatar
    Good catch! I didn't see it in the store.. its very well blended in I guess.

    So my second point goes away.. they should be able to use this for the LTE antenna as well

    06-14-2014 01:43 PM
  20. smoledman's Avatar
    For me it's not about the hardware at this point, it's fine. It's the apps, apps, apps. The state of the Windows app store is execrable right now. This is an area that iPad shines, it has all the apps that anyone wants. F.e., I need a great Podcast app but every single entry in the Windows Store is utter crap. No Amazon Instant Video, crappy Audible, crappy Kindle and so on. This is not acceptable.
    WillysJeepMan likes this.
    06-14-2014 03:32 PM
  21. aa125690's Avatar
    For me it's not about the hardware at this point, it's fine. It's the apps, apps, apps. The state of the Windows app store is execrable right now. This is an area that iPad shines, it has all the apps that anyone wants. F.e., I need a great Podcast app but every single entry in the Windows Store is utter crap. No Amazon Instant Video, crappy Audible, crappy Kindle and so on. This is not acceptable.
    I like how you are only listing Amazon's apps in here while saying the Windows app store sucks.
    06-14-2014 03:52 PM
  22. smoledman's Avatar
    I like how you are only listing Amazon's apps in here while saying the Windows app store sucks.
    Well Amazon apps and Google apps are important to a platform. It's not as if Microsoft has their own great video service, e-book service to offer.
    06-14-2014 04:28 PM
  23. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    While it is technically possible for MS to release SP4 with Broadwell by year-end, it would be foolish from a commercial perspective. A holiday release would mean that the SP4 hits the shelves only five months after the SP3. That's a ridiculously short product cycle. Some people have expressed frustration that the SP2 was outdated so quickly, and it was available 8 months before the SP3. 8 months is still an extremely short cycle. 8 months would put the SP4 on shelves at the end of February at the earliest.
    I can wait 'til Feb.
    06-14-2014 05:28 PM
  24. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I like how you are only listing Amazon's apps in here while saying the Windows app store sucks.
    Those Amazon apps are available for iOS and Android but not Windows. What is your point?
    06-14-2014 05:57 PM
  25. AvatarEW's Avatar
    For me it's not about the hardware at this point, it's fine. It's the apps, apps, apps. The state of the Windows app store is execrable right now. This is an area that iPad shines, it has all the apps that anyone wants. F.e., I need a great Podcast app but every single entry in the Windows Store is utter crap. No Amazon Instant Video, crappy Audible, crappy Kindle and so on. This is not acceptable.
    A non-issue for me as I just use web browser version which provides full functionality rather than a stunted app.

    My nieces do use the game apps quite often on my SP1, SP2, and Dell Venue 8 Pro.
    omegafiler likes this.
    06-14-2014 06:20 PM
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