09-15-2013 07:35 AM
55 123
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  1. m4tthall's Avatar
    I work in an environment where you have traders with their many screens on their desk. As much as I personally like the touch based UI in Windows 8 and have had no problems using it on a 'normal' laptop I don't see traders switching any time soon. We have literally just switched to Windows 7 too.
    03-25-2013 03:55 AM
  2. inteller's Avatar
    Windows Blue will be replacing a lot of the accessories that are currently still on Desktop. I predict Microsoft will carve out the old ones too as they replace them.
    03-25-2013 07:33 AM
  3. ninjaap's Avatar
    I work in an environment where you have traders with their many screens on their desk. As much as I personally like the touch based UI in Windows 8 and have had no problems using it on a 'normal' laptop I don't see traders switching any time soon. We have literally just switched to Windows 7 too.
    No problem:

    Windows Blue build 9364 leaked, shows numerous improvements | Windows Phone Central

    It's reported that changes have been made to the core system to allow 3 or 4 apps to be "snapped" on-screen at any given time, as well as 2 or more "Metro" apps to be run across multiple displays. Sounding good so far? We couldn't agree more. Microsoft has to battle initial reviews that noted how the new operating system may feel like too much of a climb for those who perform multiple tasks at once. It can be frustrating to juggle multiple apps on Windows 8.
    And I'm sure it won't stop there. It will continue to get better and better.
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    03-25-2013 07:58 AM
  4. ninjaap's Avatar
    I actually agree with you on this; that the "desktop UI" will be replaced by what you are calling the "Modern Metro UI" or some iteration of it. Somewhere there is a ten year old unencumbered by the way things used to be who'll grow up to become a programmer and he or she will feel right at home with the Modern UI. I'll go one step further and say that "desktop hardware" may also be replaced with tablets and slates. Higher capacity SSD, cloud computing and ever more powerful and efficient CPUs are just around the corner and may make desktops and even laptops a thing of the past. 5-10 years from now we may not recognize the home computer.



    (btw; saw your Avatar and I'm a longtime Baltimore Ravens fan...please treat "Q" well...he's a warrior, a true gentleman and a stand up guy!
    An excellent example. This shift has been a long time coming. I'm personally tired of the old Windows. I'm ready to move on and support Microsoft to evolve this operating system forward like they've envisioned as seen in this video and others they have put out. Give me touch, give me voice, give me Kinect technology, give me the next generation of keyboards and mouse and make them all work seamlessly together. Give me Minority Report, give me Start Trek and give it to me soon, not 50-100 years from now.

    (I was very happy see him join our team! He will be a great target for Kaep and a great role model for our young guys!)
    theta_orionis likes this.
    03-25-2013 08:08 AM
  5. ninjaap's Avatar
    Windows Blue will be replacing a lot of the accessories that are currently still on Desktop. I predict Microsoft will carve out the old ones too as they replace them.
    They should carve out the old ones as they replace them. It will lessen the confusion and learning curve for new users.
    03-25-2013 08:23 AM
  6. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    I'm not trying to attack anyone, but whoever says that the desktop is here to stay is wrong. Very wrong.

    There are absolutely 0 reasons that it needs to stay. The Modern UI is a work in progress, but the end result will cater to ALL USERS. All functionality that exists in the desktop will get converted over to the Modern UI, but it will be implemented in smarter and strategic new ways.

    We can all argue about this forever, but there's no point. There are people who can see Microsoft's strategy and people who can't. And if you don't open you mind to new ways of thinking and computing, you will simply be left behind by the technology.

    People that adjust to software > Software that adjusts to people

    If you want to continue to this argument, I will be back to this thread in about 2 years so that the first thing I can say is "You were wrong". ;)
    ninjaap likes this.
    03-25-2013 08:45 AM
  7. inteller's Avatar
    They should carve out the old ones as they replace them. It will lessen the confusion and learning curve for new users.

    I noticed in the leak video sound recorder and calculator were redone. Sound recorder doesn't come on Surface RT so I'm guessing some of the accessories will come with x86 only. Paint is already replaced with Fresh Paint though Microsoft hasn't stated that as fact. I'd like to see PowerShell get replaced with a modern UI equiv so you can dock several side by side.
    03-25-2013 12:19 PM
  8. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    I noticed in the leak video sound recorder and calculator were redone. Sound recorder doesn't come on Surface RT so I'm guessing some of the accessories will come with x86 only. Paint is already replaced with Fresh Paint though Microsoft hasn't stated that as fact. I'd like to see PowerShell get replaced with a modern UI equiv so you can dock several side by side.
    Ignore the desktop and focus only on metro. If it exists on Windows 8, it exists on Windows RT. Any changes or improvements to Metro that come with Windows Blue will be the same on Windows RT guaranteed.
    03-25-2013 01:17 PM
  9. ninjaap's Avatar
    Microsoft News | Windows File Manager For Modern UI Revealed In Leaked Blue Build

    And now the Modern File Manager emerges with the leaked Blue build.
    theta_orionis and phirefly like this.
    03-25-2013 03:08 PM
  10. ninjaap's Avatar
    Windows Blue: desktop mode being phased out | BGR

    And now Paul Thurrot shares mine and other's view:

    Thurrott says that by moving desktop functionalities to the tiled interface, Microsoft is gradually trying to nudge users away from desktop mode and thus pave the way for a Windows 9 operating system that “potentially” comes with no desktop mode intact.
    Microsoft’s Secret Plan to Make You Hate Windows 8 Less

    It probably won’t happen in what I think of as Windows 9—that is, a major revision to Windows 8 that might ship in 2015-ish—but it could happen in the next major release of Windows RT (alongside Windows 9). Windows 10? It’s not hard to imagine.
    Last edited by ninjaap; 03-26-2013 at 11:21 AM.
    03-26-2013 10:43 AM
  11. theefman's Avatar
    RT may be the future but its a distant future. Just looking at my work PC I see VMware vSphere, Symantec Compliance Control, Visual Studio express, Crystal Reports, Microsoft Secure Compliance manager, and various other one-time use software. Not to mention the Photoshops, Lightrooms, CAD,engineering and other advanced software out there. Being such an open architecture means there are millions of permutations of software that individuals and enterprises use and until all those are converted to run on WinRT Windows RT will not replace the desktop, regardless of whether MS duplicates desktop functionality in the Metro UI.

    For Windows RT devices probably the visual upgrades will negate the need to use the desktop but for anyone using any advance software the desktop will always be the default working environment.
    Cleavitt76 likes this.
    03-26-2013 11:12 AM
  12. berty6294's Avatar
    I completely 100% agree with the OP! I've said it from the start, Windows 8 is just a bridge, RT (minus desktop) is the destination.
    theta_orionis likes this.
    03-26-2013 11:20 AM
  13. Rich White's Avatar
    Windows Professional 9 will have desktop and backwards compatibility and be the path for legacy upgrades. Windows Home 9 will not have desktop, will run store apps only and will not be an option for legacy upgrade..

    Windows Home and Home RT (ARM) will be on Televisions and Devices including 6" phone-puters and XBox.

    My best guess looking at roadmaps. Win 32 will not be supported in Win 9 and it will support legacy only as a Emulator -- Desktop Virtual Machine on Pro.
    Last edited by Rich White; 03-26-2013 at 09:43 PM.
    03-26-2013 11:34 AM
  14. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    As a developer I am absolutely positive that there is no way the "Windows Desktop" (i.e. multi-window UI) is going away in the next decade at least. It would require the invention of an entirely different way of interacting with computers beyond what currently exists. Like a telepathic human interface or something. Anyone who says differently probably doesn't use their computer to do any complicated or precise work. If MS got rid of the desktop in a future version of Windows they wouldn't even be able to work in that version of Windows to develop the version after it.

    It's possible that some of the concepts of Modern UI will make it into the desktop UI. They already have if you look at task manager in Windows 8. It's possible that more of the development aspects will be shared and that there will be hybrid applications. Much of it already is shared since the .Net framework, XAML, and similar programming technologies that are core to most Modern UI apps have been used to build "Desktop" apps for several years now.

    This issue has nothing to do with the availability of touchscreens and it's not just matter of creating more advanced Modern UI apps. Modern UI isn't even a specific technology. It's based on the same MS programming tools and languages used to created desktop and web apps. Modern UI is mostly a concept for creating clean, simplified, touch optimized applications. The concepts that make Modern UI great for touch optimized apps are things like bigger fonts, bigger buttons, lots of empty space around fonts/buttons, and scaling the app to fill the entire screen space regardless of resolution along with recommended best practices for navigation, etc. Those things are all fine and good for apps that allow things like listening to music, watching a video, or viewing a web site. However, those same concepts do not work for programs that require lots of data on the screen at once and a high degree of precise control by the user. For example, editing music tracks, editing video, or creating a web site. Can you imaging trying to edit a photo in a version of Photoshop that follows Modern UI design principles? Good luck selecting the right pixel while you are mashing a 50x50 pixel blob with your fingertip. Good luck finding all of the functionality that Photoshop has to offer while you are scrolling through 50 screens worth of options in a 0.5" tall font. There are many, many, many other programs that require the same level of control as Photoshop and touch is never going to be the right human interface for that type of work.

    At work I'm using a system with 3 widescreen high resolution monitors right now and I have 5 - 15 programs visible on those screens at any given time. If I was working with programs written by Modern UI standards my workstation would be nearly useless to me. The productivity loss would be astounding. This is actually one of the big reasons that Windows 8 got so much backlash. Many people still mistakenly think that Windows 8 runs everything full screen because of the start screen and other screenshots/ads they have seen that show full screen Modern UI apps like Mail and Calendar.

    Also, as other have said, companies around the world have billions of man hours invested in various custom desktop apps. They are not going to re-write them all (especially the ones where the Modern UI design is not even appropriate). MS would be shooting themselves in the foot by leaving these customers with no upgrade path.

    I suspect that MS will continue to make certain elements of Windows touch friendly. The Control Panel and all the settings menus included in it for example. However, this isn't because they are slowly replacing the desktop. It's because they are trying to make core aspects of the OS compatible with both touch and keyboard/mouse interfaces so they don't have to maintain a version for each. They already did this with the Start Screen, but these are screens that users don't typically leave open once they are finished changing a setting or launching a program so they are good candidates for consolidation. MS isn't going to replace apps that users actually use while working at the desktop level. For example, the Modern UI version of calculator does not replace the desktop version of calculator, it supplements it so that both environments have a calculator. If they build a Modern UI file manager it won't replace Explorer, it will simply allow tablet (or Windows RT users) to browse their files more easily. Modern UI Mail/Calendar do not replace the much more complicated and capable Outlook.

    MS is no doubt trying to remove some of the desktop dependencies from Window RT so that it is a more seamless experience, but those efforts shouldn't be mistaken as an attempt to get rid of the desktop in the full version of Windows.
    Last edited by Cleavitt76; 03-26-2013 at 03:50 PM.
    03-26-2013 03:34 PM
  15. Rich White's Avatar
    MS is no doubt trying to remove some of the desktop dependencies from Window RT so that it is a more seamless experience, but those efforts shouldn't be mistaken as an attempt to get rid of the desktop in the full version of Windows.
    I don't think there's ever been a clearer case for differentiating Windows Pro versus Windows Home.

    Active Directory and Desktop are pro; Home becomes Modern interface Only with power users encouraged to stick with Pro.
    03-26-2013 09:38 PM
  16. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    I don't think there's ever been a clearer case for differentiating Windows Pro versus Windows Home.
    I don't follow your logic. I'm talking about MS working towards getting rid of certain awkward bits of desktop left in Windows RT which is meant to be a touch only version of Windows that runs on very lightweight hardware to compete against iOS and Android. You somehow use that as an argument that the desktop should also be removed from a full version of Windows. I don't see any direct connection between the two.

    Active Directory and Desktop are pro; Home becomes Modern interface Only with power users encouraged to stick with Pro.
    Based on what? Your just making stuff up now. You can state your random guesses as if they are facts, but that doesn't make them correct. Even if your based-on-nothing guesses were correct, the renaming of products is just marketing BS anyway. My point (which is based on the topic of this thread) is that the desktop multi-window UI isn't going away just because touch apps are hot right now. It doesn't matter if they shuffle the product names around (which would serve no purpose but to confuse customers), the desktop will still be there in some consumer targeted version of Windows. The idea that a multi-window UI is somehow a "pro" or "business" feature is just silly. Every major general purpose OS for consumers has a "desktop" interface. If MS threw that out in favor of Modern UI only they would relegate their entire product line to the level of a cool but unnecessary toy like the iPad and at the same time abandon most of their customer base. If there is one thing that MS could do to ruin their company it would be to get rid of the Windows Desktop on all consumer level products.
    03-27-2013 12:12 AM
  17. theta_orionis's Avatar
    Microsoft News | Windows File Manager For Modern UI Revealed In Leaked Blue Build

    And now the Modern File Manager emerges with the leaked Blue build.
    Thanks for the link and for initiating a thought provoking thread, ninjaap. Clearly there are some visionary and revolutionary ideas afoot at MSFT. Whilst Samsung and Apple quibble about smartphone dominance, MSFT seems to be considering the "whole" digital lifestyle. RT, Metro UI, or Modern UI are a reflection of that and moving away from "desktop" seems, IMHO, a step toward that end.

    Best of luck in the NFC West btw... and I wouldn't mind another "Harbowl" next year!
    ninjaap likes this.
    03-27-2013 02:09 AM
  18. ninjaap's Avatar
    Well at least we got some acknowledging that it will EVENTUALLY get removed and replaced, which was what I stated in the first place. Just not in agreement on when that is actually going to happen. I started this thread in response to earlier arguments from the media and others that Windows RT served no purpose since the release of Windows 8 Pro on both Atom and I-processors and will eventually be canned by MS. My counter argument was that in actuality, quite the opposite may happen. Modern is the new OS MS is working on and can conceivably take over. But what do I know. I don't have the credentials of a developer, but I am psychic and can see the future... :)
    03-27-2013 02:19 AM
  19. ninjaap's Avatar
    Thanks for the link and for initiating a thought provoking thread, ninjaap. Clearly there are some visionary and revolutionary ideas afoot at MSFT. Whilst Samsung and Apple quibble about smartphone dominance, MSFT seems to be considering the "whole" digital lifestyle. RT, Metro UI, or Modern UI are a reflection of that and moving away from "desktop" seems, IMHO, a step toward that end.

    Best of luck in the NFC West btw... and I wouldn't mind another "Harbowl" next year!
    I think MS has an exciting future planned for us. And I m really curious to see how this OS will move forward in ways only YouTube concept videos can show us at the moment.


    Thanks! I hope so to! Although, I think its a Manning vs Manning Superbowl next year. I created a fun thread about the NFL conspiracy theory in the Off Topic forum, a while back, right after we lost. But if you're a Revens fan you may not want to read that thread. I may have said something nasty, I forget. :)
    03-27-2013 02:43 AM
  20. NickA's Avatar
    I think MS has an exciting future planned for us. And I m really curious to see how this OS will move forward in ways only YouTube concept videos can show us at the moment
    I keep hearing that RT is the future, and I'm not hearing why. I do keep hearing how committed Microsoft is to it, and how they have big plans for it. But what plans, and why?

    I paid $599 + tax for my Surface on release day. 32GB + Touch cover. Two weeks ago I picked up an HP Envy X2 for $525.00 + tax. 99 bucks for Office and I'm just 25 bucks over what I paid for the Surface RT. And it's a full version of Office. I get 8 hours of battery life out of the tablet, and 11+ when docked. And when docked I can actually use it on my lap.

    That's the future: low cost, full Windows 8 tablets/laptops. No restrictions.

    So when I hear "RT is the future", I'm kind of skeptical. Maybe the intention is for RT devices, if anyone build them, to drop drastically in price.
    03-29-2013 08:19 PM
  21. ninjaap's Avatar
    I keep hearing that RT is the future, and I'm not hearing why. I do keep hearing how committed Microsoft is to it, and how they have big plans for it. But what plans, and why?

    I paid $599 + tax for my Surface on release day. 32GB + Touch cover. Two weeks ago I picked up an HP Envy X2 for $525.00 + tax. 99 bucks for Office and I'm just 25 bucks over what I paid for the Surface RT. And it's a full version of Office. I get 8 hours of battery life out of the tablet, and 11+ when docked. And when docked I can actually use it on my lap.

    That's the future: low cost, full Windows 8 tablets/laptops. No restrictions.

    So when I hear "RT is the future", I'm kind of skeptical. Maybe the intention is for RT devices, if anyone build them, to drop drastically in price.
    Just so we're on the same page, RT is being used to represent Modern UI. This is not a debate between ARM, Atom, I-processors, battery life or inclusion of Office.
    03-29-2013 09:44 PM
  22. NickA's Avatar
    Just so we're on the same page, RT is being used to represent Modern UI. This is not a debate between ARM, Atom, I-processors, battery life or inclusion of Office.
    Well, forget what I said then

    That being said, I'm having a hard time seeing Windows without a desktop. I say that because as a developer, I have many things going on at one time. Visual Studio, SQL Enterprise Manager, another instance of Visual Studio, and a debug window running on a second display. And that's on a slow day. Until the Modern UI is geared towards being more productive, the desktop will stick around.
    03-29-2013 11:11 PM
  23. VidJuhEffex's Avatar
    If they are phasing out desktop.... why are they making it the only app with an option for a 4x sized tile? Seems like they think people are going to keep wanting to go there.

    Look, right now I like using the metro IE on my surface, (desktop IE on desktop) but when I download something and want to save it, I inevitably need to create a new folder... and can't.

    I'm sure Desktop is here to stay, this is about adding functionality that should have been there at Windows 8's launch. File browsing computers at maximum efficiency will always somewhat resemble a desktop, shoehorning that into metro isn't worth it. Often people write how much they hope desktop goes away, or not have been bundled with the Surface. And the real kicker is when they say something like "its only used for file browsing and Office." Yeah, "only." I love plugging in a thumbstick, copying pictures, naming folders, dragging folders, OCD'ing my video collection. If desktop did nothing BUT file manage on the surface I would still be pleased with it, content in knowing I had the best file management "app" available, and the namesake of the OS: "Windows."
    03-30-2013 01:33 AM
  24. AgentTheGreat's Avatar
    I just don't see how they want to make something as complicated as Visual Studio into a ModernUI app. That environment is for power-geeks who have to feel in control of everything to do any useful work. If they try to create a ModernUI version, it will essentially have to be a maximized VS window with no chrome, and sure as hell hard to work with using touch. So the mouse will stay, and there is no practical advantage to porting such complicated tools to Metro.

    Now about Windows RT: Intel and AMD will catch up, ARM based people will have to go because when those two giants improve power consumption on their chips (Intel has almost done it with its newest Atom chips) the legacy x86 programs that give Windows its advantage over others will be still here. Experienced developers who create that kind of software will also be still here. So you'll have a full blown Windows tablet you can take with you everywhere, and it will have the battery life of any RT powered device.

    So RT will eventually go (it depends on chip makers). Windows Pro will stay, and it will take advantage of both desktop and Modern apps for the foreseeable future.
    05-11-2013 04:58 PM
  25. ninjaap's Avatar
    I just don't see how they want to make something as complicated as Visual Studio into a ModernUI app. That environment is for power-geeks who have to feel in control of everything to do any useful work. If they try to create a ModernUI version, it will essentially have to be a maximized VS window with no chrome, and sure as hell hard to work with using touch. So the mouse will stay, and there is no practical advantage to porting such complicated tools to Metro.

    Now about Windows RT: Intel and AMD will catch up, ARM based people will have to go because when those two giants improve power consumption on their chips (Intel has almost done it with its newest Atom chips) the legacy x86 programs that give Windows its advantage over others will be still here. Experienced developers who create that kind of software will also be still here. So you'll have a full blown Windows tablet you can take with you everywhere, and it will have the battery life of any RT powered device.

    So RT will eventually go (it depends on chip makers). Windows Pro will stay, and it will take advantage of both desktop and Modern apps for the foreseeable future.
    Again, Windows RT in this discussion does not refer to ARM, but to Modern UI. And no one is suggesting the mouse to go away. The future is to have more than just a mouse and kb input, working seamlessly together.
    05-11-2013 05:49 PM
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