07-15-2013 05:13 AM
35 12
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  1. ninjaap's Avatar
    I think people fail to realize this milestone will just boost more confidence into Windows RT and less into Windows 8. And wait till everyone else gets Windows 8.1 installed. It seems the OS is moving very rapidly towards a desktop independence.
    Gergolos likes this.
    07-02-2013 10:25 AM
  2. Pete's Avatar
    A part of me says "Yay", and is happy.

    Another part of me bemoans the lack of truly good/innovative apps out there. Whenever I happen to browse through the Windows Store, all I ever seem to find is simple, useless apps that are barely more than web wrappers.
    07-02-2013 10:44 AM
  3. immyperez's Avatar
    I have windows 8...and I love it! I'm on the desktop like 70% of the time!!! I have a some legacy software including Reason 7 (music production), Adobe Premiere Pro (video editing) and lots of steam games! Even when I watch videos I use VLC and am still at my desktop!!! Literally, the only time I am even at the start screen is for when I'm selecting certain apps - my most used apps are on a dock on my DESKTOP!!! I also prefer the windows 8 version of IE! Superfast compared to every browser I have tried...not the same result on the desktop though...other browsers work equally fast as IE in desktop mode!

    So what's the point in my rant??? That it's all a matter of CHOICE! Windows 8 or RT offer choice in a way that all other OSs do not IMO! If all you want is to surf the net and watch videos online and play with 'apps' you have the option to do so with RT. If you want to use legacy software you go for Windows 8 pro etc!

    But I agree that it will only be people who need certain desktop applications who feel that the desktop is far from obsolete...but even then...the desktop will simply evolve and adapt!
    07-02-2013 10:54 AM
  4. balama's Avatar
    still needs a Cisco certified VPN client to remote into work

    I don;t care about all the other apps
    just get me a certified Cisco VPN app so I can remote desktop in and get real work done
    pbankey, Jazmac and gilezzz like this.
    07-02-2013 10:58 AM
  5. ninjaap's Avatar
    I have windows 8...and I love it! I'm on the desktop like 70% of the time!!! I have a some legacy software including Reason 7 (music production), Adobe Premiere Pro (video editing) and lots of steam games! Even when I watch videos I use VLC and am still at my desktop!!! Literally, the only time I am even at the start screen is for when I'm selecting certain apps - my most used apps are on a dock on my DESKTOP!!! I also prefer the windows 8 version of IE! Superfast compared to every browser I have tried...not the same result on the desktop though...other browsers work equally fast as IE in desktop mode!

    So what's the point in my rant??? That it's all a matter of CHOICE! Windows 8 or RT offer choice in a way that all other OSs do not IMO! If all you want is to surf the net and watch videos online and play with 'apps' you have the option to do so with RT. If you want to use legacy software you go for Windows 8 pro etc!

    But I agree that it will only be people who need certain desktop applications who feel that the desktop is far from obsolete...but even then...the desktop will simply evolve and adapt!
    I honestly think desktop will no longer evolve and eventually die off (see Windows 8.1 - improvement is on Modern UI side). Maybe not this year or in 5 years. But I believe that is where windows is headed. Soon Modern apps will be as powerful as desktop programs. Soon you will see popular desktop programs ported as popular Modern apps. Soon there will be no more desktop.
    07-02-2013 11:00 AM
  6. prlundberg's Avatar
    Desktop isn't going anywhere until you can do real Windows in Metro. Novel idea for an OS called Windows I know. But if that happens yes the desktop as we know it today COULD go away.

    It's nice to see them hit 100K but the app selection is still mostly poor along with the quality. I'm not a gamer but even I find the lack of quality games ridiculous, for example there still isn't a single good car racing game in the store. VPN is another big one that is costing them a lot of sales. I have just about everything I really need on it, but I can certainly see why people continue to be disappointed.

    At least the Windows Store is much improved in 8.1. That will help a great deal to find useful apps.
    rmeigs likes this.
    07-02-2013 12:35 PM
  7. loribinca's Avatar
    still needs a Cisco certified VPN client to remote into work

    I don;t care about all the other apps
    just get me a certified Cisco VPN app so I can remote desktop in and get real work done

    ^^^ this.. but I don't think it's going to happen.. I've been following some MS posts and it appears that MS wont open up the API's Cisco needs to make their client work.

    Cisco also need to invest the money to port this, and given the market size of RT, I don't think it's economical for them to do so.

    Lack of VPN support is what hampers RT from competing with the established tablets people use in the workplace.

    An opportunity missed me thinks.
    07-02-2013 01:54 PM
  8. ninjaap's Avatar
    Last report I saw, Surface RT outsold Surface Pro and other x86. Still no update since then. I'm wondering where its at now?
    07-02-2013 02:24 PM
  9. trivor's Avatar
    If they put Bay Trail into the Surface RT shell (very high quality) you'd be lucky if you sold 1 RT for every 100 Surface Bay Trails. The performance of the Clover Trail Win 8 Tablets matches or exceeds the Surface RT and the only thing Surface RT has is the very high quality construction. Surface RT as an OS can not compete with Windows 8.1 on the upcoming Intel Haswell series of chips and Surface RT will die another slow MS death (Zune HD anyone). Even if you're in the Modern UI most of the time it is nice to have the backup of availability of Windows 8.1 desktop apps.
    xandros9 and Ray Adams like this.
    07-02-2013 05:13 PM
  10. ninjaap's Avatar
    Ah... There they are ^
    Nogitsune Micah and Wyn6 like this.
    07-02-2013 05:30 PM
  11. gilezzz's Avatar
    Hi Ninjaap, I love RT too but I have to agree that if Intel raises the bar it will become more difficult for RT to find its niche.

    I am a Lenovo Yoga 11 (Windows RT) owner and I really love it. So far it outsmarts Intel devices for 1) battery life 2) performance/weight ratio. But if you make the same identical machine with same battery life and performance, same price and full Windows 8, well..

    So the question is: who is RT for? If Microsoft has proven the point that it can run Windows on an ARM processor, still it's not the full Windows. Yes, yes in the future maybe someone will forget the desktop, especially for a tablet. But RT feels both a late attempt and a premature one. Late because the tablet market is already taken by 2 big players. Premature because if you call something "Windows" and then it cannot run Windows software, and software for the new Windows is scarce, well somebody will say "first give me the software, then give me a locked Windows, don't do the opposite".

    All in all, I feel the Microsoft strategy was based on this idea: "Damn, we are late. If we launch a new mobile OS, nobody will want it. Idea! Let's FORCE our billions of Windows users to use it! We put it together with Windows 7 but they won't be able to get rid of it, so they will have to get used to it. This way we can get our market share, have software developers make apps, and make our money.. and survive".

    Although I think the idea makes sense, the price Microsoft has to pay is:
    1) Get the user base upset (but hey they cannot get rid of Windows hehehe! One ring to rule them all..)
    2) Create products like the Surface RT to force developers to make apps for the modern interface.. hoping that they can get a critical mass of metro apps and start making money from the store ..until Intel catches up and they can just sell full Windows 8 tablets

    As an RT device owner.. I hope it works out anyways. I will enjoy my Yoga 11 for now with more and more apps, and when you give me full Windows 8 for the same price.. i dump RT.

    And where will RT go? Maybe on smaller devices, eventually replacing Windows Phone, in my opinion.

    In the short term, though, we can be optimistic: Windows RT is a close brother of Windows 8, so most of the new metro apps will still run on our RT devices. And next year we can get rid of them and get full Windows 8 tablets..

    What do you think?
    Last edited by gilezzz; 07-03-2013 at 03:53 AM.
    07-03-2013 02:42 AM
  12. Ian Too's Avatar
    I have to admit I really love my Surface RT, but that's because I understood it was not a full PC. I was interested in an iPad replacement that I could write on and the Surface RT has filled that need admirably. Having now handled the Surface Pro I'm glad I didn't wait, the Pro is significantly bulkier and I don't need to run Paintshop Pro on a mobile platform.

    As for the future, I think it depends on two things: How well Intel can match ARM in bringing efficiency to their processors and how well the Modern UI will be supported. The second depends on the relative importance of tablet PCs in the ecosystem.

    I think that the importance of truly portable PCs, including tablets, will make the Modern UI absolutely vital. The old Desktop is a pain to use as a touch interface and with people wanting to work on the move and in their homes, the future is Modern UI with the traditional desktop becoming increasingly irrelevant. This means more and more programs will be released as Modern UI apps and these will automatically run on Windows RT, so even if Haswell does boost Tablet sales it will feed the relevance the RT ecosystem.

    With the improvements to the Modern UI in Windows 8.1 and beyond, Windows RT will gain become increasingly versatile, to the point where there will be no significant difference. At that point, Windows RT will stop being thought of as a separate operating system. You will just choose a device running either an Intel/AMD processor or an ARM one and if ARM are able to maintain their efficiency advantage, we may all be running RT.
    07-03-2013 04:12 AM
  13. Siah1214's Avatar
    ^^^ this.. but I don't think it's going to happen.. I've been following some MS posts and it appears that MS wont open up the API's Cisco needs to make their client work.

    Cisco also need to invest the money to port this, and given the market size of RT, I don't think it's econom
    ical for them to do so.

    Lack of VPN support is what hampers RT from competing with the established tablets people use in the workplace.

    An opportunity missed me thinks.
    Good thing 8.1 has VPN support then, huh?
    07-03-2013 07:46 AM
  14. inteller's Avatar
    still mostly junk. PLUS, I only see 52000+ apps on my store, and I am in the US.


    and btw Windows RT 8 has VPN support, just not that ****ty ***** button Anyconnect crap.
    Ray Adams likes this.
    07-03-2013 07:47 AM
  15. Ridemyscooter86's Avatar
    I have to admit when RT came out I didn't like or or/ wouldn't buy it. I was against it, not because of the app catalog, just because of the price. I mean when the intel atoms gave around the same performance and you could run legacy x86 apps for around the same price, I saw no point in RT. I've finally realized what win RT is to microsoft: a contingency plan. I'm not saying that to put RT down, its more of saying just how smart MS is. The problem in the tablet space is that intel is only starting to crack the shell of tablets. The issue becomes that even though the atoms are competetive with the ARM processors and can hold its own against them, the ARM processors are still better for tablets overall because of their battery life, speed (on multi-threaded applications), and graphics (something intel has ALWAYS lagged behind in). Haswell is definitely a huge step in the right direction for intel, but I'm going to bet that the haswell tablets are still going to be bigger and heavier and get worse battery life than their arm counterparts. The next atoms will probably have equally good battery life and their single threaded processing destroys ARM, but on graphics, ARM kills the atom, which means that many games in the windows store cannot run on the atoms well, but can run well on the ARM processors.

    The point I'm trying to make is that nobody seems to know where ARM is headed, for now its the overwhelming majority of tablets/smartphones and intel is just trying to get into this space now. Its possible that intel comes out with some awesome x86 processors that beat ARM out, but I don't see it in the near future so MS made windows RT so they can be prepared either way the market decides to go. It was smart of them to use the app store so devs basically made the app mostly for win 8 but then when it was compiled, the app would compile to win 8 and win RT at the same time thus killing two birds with one stone. MS basically did this so that if ARM does stay the reigning champion of smartphones/tablets and intel doesn't take marketshare in that space, or if ARM pushes into desktop/laptop territory and takes over there, MS will be prepared wither which way.

    In any case, win RT is far more compelling now than it was even 6 months ago because of the app situation and especially the lower prices: for example at my work we are selling the Dell XPS 10 tablet for 280$ (32Gb). Thats the price RT tablets should've been in the first place to match their android competitors on an even playing field. I wasn't thinking about a windows RT tablet, but seeing as all I did on my atom tablet anyways was office and internet/email, RT would be perfect for me. I think the only thing MS should really do for win RT is ditch the desktop. I mean, its essentially useless on windows RT as the only app that uses it is office. The desktop id probably only there because they haven't completed the metro version of office but I bet that when they do, the desktop will hopefully be gone on windows RT as it really serves no purpose but to add complexity to the overall system...
    xandros9, gilezzz and ninjaap like this.
    07-03-2013 07:50 AM
  16. inteller's Avatar
    I've enjoyed over 6 months of productivity that I otherwise would not have if I had sat around and pooh pooh'd the price like a broke *** chump. you could never be as productive with a cheap *** bargain bin android tablet compared to a Surface and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
    07-03-2013 07:54 AM
  17. Coreldan's Avatar
    I've enjoyed over 6 months of productivity that I otherwise would not have if I had sat around and pooh pooh'd the price like a broke *** chump. you could never be as productive with a cheap *** bargain bin android tablet compared to a Surface and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
    This. Even compared to most other Win 8 tablets (as in full Win 8), I wouldn't have been quite as productive cos for the price of a Surface RT I wouldn't have got as good and mobile of a keyboard with pretty much full Office. Also I'm sceptic enough not to run full Windows without firewall and/or antivirus and those take a nasty amount of resources especially from devices that don't have much to begin with. So to some extent the handicappedness of RT feels more secure as well. Or perhaps not "more secure", but I don't have to use 25% of it's resources at all times just on security.
    07-03-2013 08:23 AM
  18. martinmc78's Avatar
    I don't see where hatin' on the desktop comes from in RT. Yes its a jarring transition from modern UI but... and I do love a big ole but.

    You remove the desktop you lose all the power user functions that makes RT better than the rest. File management, Admin tools, Remote desktop. I would keep the desktop mode just for regedit.

    Wont even go into losing the ability to jailbreak. Quake 2 on a surface RT rocks.
    rmeigs and testement like this.
    07-03-2013 08:31 AM
  19. inteller's Avatar
    why do you think these things can't be ported to modern UI? People seem to have this bizarre hangup that these utilities can't make it over to modern UI. They have already ported Calculator and Sound Recorder. But I can attest that I have never had the need to use regedit on RT. There is just no reason unless you are up to no good.
    07-03-2013 08:39 AM
  20. martinmc78's Avatar
    why do you think these things can't be ported to modern UI? People seem to have this bizarre hangup that these utilities can't make it over to modern UI. They have already ported Calculator and Sound Recorder. But I can attest that I have never had the need to use regedit on RT. There is just no reason unless you are up to no good.
    It would be great if they could port them over - but from a usability standpoint a lot of the power functions haven't changed since pre windows xp.

    Regedit is the single most powerful part of a windows machine if you know what you are doing with it. You don't have to be up to no good either, the personalisation you can bring to your device is worthy of fiddling with regedit alone
    07-03-2013 09:02 AM
  21. neo158's Avatar
    If they put Bay Trail into the Surface RT shell (very high quality) you'd be lucky if you sold 1 RT for every 100 Surface Bay Trails. The performance of the Clover Trail Win 8 Tablets matches or exceeds the Surface RT and the only thing Surface RT has is the very high quality construction. Surface RT as an OS can not compete with Windows 8.1 on the upcoming Intel Haswell series of chips and Surface RT will die another slow MS death (Zune HD anyone). Even if you're in the Modern UI most of the time it is nice to have the backup of availability of Windows 8.1 desktop apps.
    Except they won't, you do realise that 8.1 is coming to Surface RT as well. Unable to compete, I don't think so and at least I don't need to hand over 300 - 500 for an Office 2013 license as that's built in with Outlook coming in the 8.1 update. I think that the days of Windows 8, not Windows RT, tablets are numbered. You seem like the sort of person who hated Windows Phone and thought that it would "die another slow MS death"!!!!!
    07-03-2013 09:37 AM
  22. inteller's Avatar
    It would be great if they could port them over - but from a usability standpoint a lot of the power functions haven't changed since pre windows xp.

    Regedit is the single most powerful part of a windows machine if you know what you are doing with it. You don't have to be up to no good either, the personalisation you can bring to your device is worthy of fiddling with regedit alone
    the personalization you speak of need to be exposed through the modern interface, not accessed through regedit.
    neo158 likes this.
    07-03-2013 09:50 AM
  23. martinmc78's Avatar
    the personalization you speak of need to be exposed through the modern interface, not accessed through regedit.
    I agree with you - even down to simple things - like changing the name of the recycle bin. This should all be under personalisation options in a modern UI consistent with the rest of the system. Not tucked away in a sub section under HK local machine.
    07-03-2013 10:01 AM
  24. loribinca's Avatar
    Good thing 8.1 has VPN support then, huh?
    Except that Cisco is the one the majority of companies seem to use .. and RT won't (and likely never will) support that
    07-03-2013 10:12 AM
  25. inteller's Avatar
    I agree with you - even down to simple things - like changing the name of the recycle bin. This should all be under personalisation options in a modern UI consistent with the rest of the system. Not tucked away in a sub section under HK local machine.
    things you refer to like renaming Recycle Bin aren't even applicable to the modern interface once the Desktop goes away.
    07-03-2013 10:19 AM
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