10-19-2013 02:11 PM
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  1. Alex Dean's Avatar
    Because the RT is a Microsoft product, so in their eyes that immediately makes it bad. Simple as that.

    I love my RT, it is honestly one of the best things I have ever spent money on, but the hate for it really makes me angry. If people actually used one they would definitely see its merits. It's not a perfect device by any means, but it is still one of the best tablets out there.
    jeffskent and rav16 like this.
    09-07-2013 07:20 AM
  2. Kellzea's Avatar
    Because the RT is a Microsoft product, so in their eyes that immediately makes it bad. Simple as that.

    I love my RT, it is honestly one of the best things I have ever spent money on, but the hate for it really makes me angry. If people actually used one they would definitely see its merits. It's not a perfect device by any means, but it is still one of the best tablets out there.
    this, 100% this.

    Ive just gotten a Surface RT and its immense, not perfect, not by a long shot. But its got so much going for it that the app count can be forgiven.

    Having a full usb port, micro sd and micro hdmi out, pretty much smashes every other tablet that doesn't have them. The music, pictures, office and skydrive apps are just fantastic and take such a load off the need for storage its untrue.

    But yeah, people don't like RT because Microsoft.

    That's it really.
    09-07-2013 07:43 AM
  3. jedpatrickdatu's Avatar
    I agree, he sounds biased against Microsoft.

    As for me, I don't hate RT, but I don't like how very expensive many RT devices are and how they are priced too closely to full Windows 8 gadgets. RT tablets are supposed to be more affordable alternatives as they run on ARM architecture. Unfortunately they are not that much cheaper, so one might as well go for the complete Desktop experience. Because of this, I see RT as pointless. If RT tabs could be much cheaper, it would make more sense.
    09-07-2013 07:57 AM
  4. Brad and Ellen's Avatar
    To answer the OP's question as to why there is so much hate for RT?
    1. Because it's the 'in' thing to do
    2. The majority of bloggers are complete morons that have no clue what journalism is
    3. Most blog sites are either paid for by Apple or Android through advertising dollars
    4. Paid shills from the double A's (and yes MS has them to), disseminating complete and utter false information about RT
    5. Complete lack of research into the product

    Now, why I love RT and plan on buying a third shortly?
    1. Remote Desktop
    2. Multitasking
    3. IE and Flash
    4. No x86 (yes, you read that right)
    5. Split screen from HDMI out
    6. Multi-user
    7. Touch cover (yes, you read that right to)
    8. USB connectivity
    9. charms, especially the very powerful 'share' and 'search' charms
    10. Remote Desktop (yes twice, since it makes x86 tablets irrelevant)

    I could go on about VPN, connecting to windows file shares on my home network, office, wireless printing, seamless connectivity of all my peripherals, but I think you get the idea. There is just too much to list.

    Sent from our Surface RT
    rav16 likes this.
    09-07-2013 05:53 PM
  5. Brad and Ellen's Avatar
    oops, double post. Please delete if you wish.
    09-07-2013 05:54 PM
  6. mrpuny's Avatar
    I have similar feelings to many others in this thread. I have a 32GB Surface RT that I preordered before launch. I got it on release day and really like it a lot, and I find it much more useful to me than the other tablets we have in the house. (iPad 2 that my wife uses, and two Nook HD+'s we got for the kids after B&N's price drop. Though to be honest, with the current prices and Play store support, I've toyed with the idea of getting an HD+ for myself as well. It's a great pure consumption device.)

    However, as much as I like it, I can see lots of issues with it for "normals", and reasons why it hasn't got good reviews beyond the (entirely legititmate IMO) complaint that many tech sites are inherently anti-Microsoft. To be perfecly honest, I've never felt like I could recommend it to any of my friends or family.

    Performance is one problem. The Tegra3 isn't the fastest processor on the block, and I'd say that Windows RT isn't particularly well optimized for it either. The 5th battery saver core isn't enabled, and it appears to be unclocked compared with its Android counterparts, for example.

    Apps are another problem. It's gotten better, but Microsoft didn't do itself any favors by forcing the new "v1.0" (and that's being generous) WinRT API. Yes, alienate all your existing .Net/Silverlight/XNA/Windows Phone 7.X developers by not providing a direct route to the platform and push native code at a time when you're looking to split your userbase between incompatible processor architectures (ARM and x86 where the .Net/XNA managed code could really shine.) Oh, and just for grins, make the worst Store app (in terms of discovery) possible. Yes, the Windows 8.1 preview store app is much better. But of course, any normal users have to wait until 8.1 RTM is pushed out before getting the update, because it would be impossible to push updates for the store app out beforehand. Really? REALLY? And forget about iTunes, recognized by Microsoft as one of the two most popular Windows desktop apps according to Paul Thurrot on a recent "What the Tech" podcast. Fortunately, though, you can switch to the excellent Xbox Music and Video apps which offer the best of the (truly good) Zune application, updated for the new platform. Uhh......

    Office: OK, it's great that Windows RT includes Office 2013. Well, except for Outlook. And Publisher. And Access. And Excel macros. However, 8.1 will add Outlook. Which is great since you'll be able to use it for all your business needs. Oh wait, it's licensed for home (and student) use only, not business? Unless you have some other Office business licensing in place? Oh, and if you already have an Office 2013 home subscription, which the Office group is pushing, you have 5 installs of all these products anyway, so unless you already have 5 PCs running Office, Windows RT doesn't add anything. In fact since it's missing all the other apps, you could legitimately argue it even offers less than an Atom tablet running full Windows 8. (And related are all the other business type issues with domain support, VPN support, etc.)

    Price: Until recently, about the same as an Atom tablet running full Windows 8 with similar or better battery life and performance. And Office 2013, which isn't included on the Atom tablets. Unless you already subscribed to Office 365 (see above). Now the price of the Surface RT has dropped. But new models are expected soon...

    Actually, I could go on and on. The thing is, as I start listing these issues out, I find myself getting more and more ticked off with the Surface RT, and I don't want to. I really like this thing. It's a situation where the most annoying issues - for me anyway - are actually pretty minor, especially any of them considered individually. But taken together, they all come down to the fact that Microsoft can't seem to put together a coherent story for why Windows RT should be a consideration. It happens to fit in well with my needs, but in terms of the broader market, I can see it being a "neither fish nor fowl" situation.
    09-07-2013 07:03 PM
  7. Kellzea's Avatar
    You make some valid, and some less valid points. I get what you mean that office isn't actually the full featured office. But its full enough for 99% of work and 99% of people. And for free, that's good enough.

    Performance is largly down to un-optimised software, and 8.1 by all accounts is much faster. Yes they maybe should have gotten it right first time, but all software has a 1.0 and then gets better.

    Ios has taken 7 implementations to get an options screen.

    Glad its a mostly positive outlook from you though. :)
    09-08-2013 05:16 AM
  8. jeffskent's Avatar
    The number one thing I use the Surface RT for is remoting (yes spell check, it's a word) into all of my other computers. This actually allows me to use any of my programs on them and get changed files via Sky Drive if needed. So no more lugging the laptop around, just remote in and the RT becomes that laptop.
    I have a question about your ability to remote on an RT. Even over a fast 10 mbps connection. How can an RT or iPad running basically a netbook style cpu and gpu control even a mid range laptop?

    I've owned two iPads and never tried to remotely control my desktop, except as a lark to see if it was possible, which it was. Albeit very slowly. Netbook cpus and gpus are not known for their ability to multitask easily, switch programs easily, run multiple windows on screen at a time, and easily transfer data from one window to another. How does your RT do so?

    I certainly don't hate the RT. I just wonder if it is the future of computing. All software will be curated or owned and approved by Microsoft or Apple or Google? Computers will lose 75% of their processing power so users can tap icons with their fingers? Users will no longer have to bother their pretty little heads with such unimportant items as file systems, extensions, data types, file types, and anything not approved by the big three won't even be visible. Will computers only be used by governments and big business? Will young people be taught how to tap an icon and slide a picture, and that makes them computer literate? Does computer literate mean someone who can type lol and Dude, U R A Tard? Instant messaging about where you are going shopping and getting a bite to eat? Exchanging pictures with your family and friends from every Starbucks in the nation? Watching movies and tv on an 11 inch screen with thimble sized speakers?

    This is the future of computing? It seems to me that people are exchanging their big, heavy, expensive cars for cheap, mobile, less expensive golf carts. The golf carts work fine for quick trips to the store, trips to work if you travel less than 10 miles at 10 miles per hour, and running around the neighborhood. Will cars become obsolete at this rate? I doubt it. Can the same be said of computers if RTs and iPads are the future of computing? We'll see.
    09-08-2013 05:51 AM
  9. mrpuny's Avatar
    You make some valid, and some less valid points. I get what you mean that office isn't actually the full featured office. But its full enough for 99% of work and 99% of people. And for free, that's good enough.

    Performance is largly down to un-optimised software, and 8.1 by all accounts is much faster. Yes they maybe should have gotten it right first time, but all software has a 1.0 and then gets better.

    Ios has taken 7 implementations to get an options screen.

    Glad its a mostly positive outlook from you though. :)
    I really do like my Surface, and I've been using it pretty much every day since I got it last October. It's a great companion device with nice design features and build quality that hits a good sweet spot for me. But in the context of this thread, the problem I see is that MS has really dropped the ball in terms of making a case for Windows RT. Compared with Clovertrail tablets, which came out right around the same time, price and performance have by and large been comparable. In fact, the only two real differentiators in Windows RT's favor that I can see are:

    1. Office included with Windows RT vs a separate cost. However, if you have any of the Office 365 subscriptions offering multiple Office installs, this isn't really a value because you're already paying for it, so installing on a Clovertrail tablet is "free" as well.

    2. It doesn't run legacy Windows applications. Now conceptually I agree with this point, and I don't see running traditional desktop apps on a tablet form factor as a positive. However, in the current world we live in, being able to run desktop apps and standard x86 drivers does give people a crutch for working around limitations with a - let's say developing ecosystem. It's also a difficult thing to try to market effectively without it sounding something like "Chose Windows RT because it doesn't run the old cruddy software that has been the mainstay of our platform over all these years. Plus, it's not as susceptible to getting hosed up and full of malware like our 'Professional' Windows 8 software." Not to mention that if the more locked down nature of Windows RT gets widespread appeal, the same could be done with a version of Windows 8 for x86. Basically a "Windows RT for Intel" platform.

    Now the recent price drops certainly help make Surface RT more appealing. And having Windows RT on ARM probably does provide even more pressure on Intel to make more competitive low cost and low power CPUs and support chips and also give Microsoft an alternative if Intel drops the ball. But I have to be concerned that if Microsoft can't carve out a niche for Windows RT, it may go the way of Windows NT on MIPS, PowerPC, Alpha, and Itanium. At least the ARM version, anyway.
    09-08-2013 12:20 PM
  10. Brad and Ellen's Avatar
    However, as much as I like it, I can see lots of issues with it for "normals",
    Wow, how pretentious.

    Performance is one problem. The Tegra3 isn't the fastest processor on the block, and I'd say that Windows RT isn't particularly well optimized for it either.
    Let's see, about 6 or so tabs open, xbox music snapped to the side, an exel doc open, typing this while out putting to my 1080p TV. Yup, you're right, performance is terrible.

    Apps are another problem. It's gotten better, but Microsoft didn't do itself any favors by forcing the new "v1.0" (and that's being generous) WinRT API. Yes, alienate all your existing .Net/Silverlight/XNA/Windows Phone 7.X developers by not providing a direct route to the platform and push native code at a time when you're looking to split your userbase between incompatible processor architectures (ARM and x86 where the .Net/XNA managed code could really shine.) Oh, and just for grins, make the worst Store app (in terms of discovery) possible. Yes, the Windows 8.1 preview store app is much better. But of course, any normal users have to wait until 8.1 RTM is pushed out before getting the update, because it would be impossible to push updates for the store app out beforehand. Really? REALLY? And forget about iTunes, recognized by Microsoft as one of the two most popular Windows desktop apps according to Paul Thurrot on a recent "What the Tech" podcast. Fortunately, though, you can switch to the excellent Xbox Music and Video apps which offer the best of the (truly good) Zune application, updated for the new platform. Uhh......
    Apps are not an issue, you do know what a browser's for, right? Liked Zune and don't like xbox music? There are many other alternatives. Personally, I thought Zune was a piece of crap. BTW, not liking xbox music makes Surface RT bad because...........?!?!?

    ...Which is great since you'll be able to use it for all your business needs. Oh wait, it's licensed for home (and student) use only, not business? Unless you have some other Office business licensing in place?...
    Completely and utterly false. 'You' don't need anything.

    Price: Until recently, about the same as an Atom tablet running full Windows 8 with similar or better battery life and performance. And Office 2013, which isn't included on the Atom tablets. Unless you already subscribed to Office 365 (see above). Now the price of the Surface RT has dropped. But new models are expected soon...
    Priced to high to start, sure was.

    Actually, I could go on and on. The thing is, as I start listing these issues out, I find myself getting more and more ticked off with the Surface RT, and I don't want to. I really like this thing. It's a situation where the most annoying issues - for me anyway - are actually pretty minor, especially any of them considered individually. But taken together, they all come down to the fact that Microsoft can't seem to put together a coherent story for why Windows RT should be a consideration. It happens to fit in well with my needs, but in terms of the broader market, I can see it being a "neither fish nor fowl" situation.
    A very passive aggressive post. I commend you on your eloquence, however, I don't believe you when you say you truly like the product, which is OK by me. Thank goodness for choice!


    Sent from our Surface RT
    09-08-2013 01:38 PM
  11. mrpuny's Avatar
    Wow, how pretentious.
    Really, how so? I'm just recognizing that I'm odd in that I'm willing to spend a lot of time researching computers, tweaking/hacking them, working around limitations, and generally just geeking around with them as an end in and of itself. Most people I know want their computers to just work and let them get on with their lives. If they do, great. If they don't, regardless of the reason and underlying issues, they suck. Similar to cars. I love playing around with old cars. If one won't start or has some performance issue, it's a great challenge to me. Most people I know just want their cars to work and get them from point A to point B reliably. Do you disagree?

    Let's see, about 6 or so tabs open, xbox music snapped to the side, an exel doc open, typing this while out putting to my 1080p TV. Yup, you're right, performance is terrible.
    Impressive, good for you. I think you're misunderstanding, though. I'm not saying performance is horrible. Generally, it's OK, and I find the 8.1 preview even better. (Actually, other than the inevitable bugs in a beta version, it's great.) The thing is, though, this thread is about "Why so much hate for RT?" and one aspect of that isn't really hate, but a question. What does an ARM-based tablet offer compared with an x86 based one? The thought was that ARM tablets should offer a better "performance/watt" or "performance/battery life" metric; ARM devices could offer a better combination of battery life and performance than those using traditional Intel processors. And if you compare the Surface to the Surface Pro, that's arguably true. At least you can say the Surface gets like 2x the battery life of the Surface Pro, while potentially offering adequate performance for most common tasks. The Clovertrail tablets throw a wrinkle in this calculation, however. They came out about the same time as the Windows RT (ARM) tablets, and seem to offer about the same or better performance and battery life. So it's a legitimate question in my mind: What does Windows RT bring to the table if I can get similar battery life/performance with a Clovertrail processor plus the OPTION of using legacy desktop apps and x86 drivers to fill in the gaps with Windows 8? You can look in some of the other threads I've posted in talking about whether Microsoft is leaving ARM (specifically Tegra 3) performance on the table.

    There's one other aspect that's related, however. You can't deny that the original units sent to reviewers back in 2012 had some performance issues with the software, particularly with the Office 2013 preview software. For better or worse, reviews come out when a new product is released, not months later. It's trite but true that "you never get a second chance to make a first impression."

    Apps are not an issue, you do know what a browser's for, right?
    Huh? Has this suddenly turned into a Chromebook debate?
    Look, I know the browser is cool, OK? I even realized right away that I could run hulu.com from the browser and went crazy when I saw none of the reviews mentioning this. (Really, 'everyone' seemed to complain about hulu+ with it's associated subscription being required on a tablet, and there I was running hulu with no extra fee on a tablet?) But the browser isn't the end all be all of apps either. Unless you'd truly like to get into a Chromebook debate....

    Liked Zune and don't like xbox music? There are many other alternatives. Personally, I thought Zune was a piece of crap. BTW, not liking xbox music makes Surface RT bad because...........?!?!?
    No Surface isn't bad because Xbox music is bad. The problem is that with full Windows 8 you can use pretty much any alternative. With Windows RT, you're limited to "Windows Store apps" (aka formerly known as Metro apps) and the browser, so your alternatives are.....? (And given the reviews are written at launch, the alternatives then were???) (Really, the issue is that the geniuses behind Windows appear to have decided that essentially everything should be "brand new" and not really evolve or build on the past at all. "Start over from scratch!" looks to have been the mantra. Well, when you do that you get a v1.0 system at every level. I can't wait until Microsoft decides to do it all again in 2015 or so. What, you think they won't? Why not? Because WinRT has been ubelievably successful with consumers and developers, and used more than .Net/XNA/Silverlight? Answer in detail please....)

    Edit: Just to clarify, I was being sarcastic about Microsoft changing APIs again in 2015, not because I think WinRT is so great. (It may or may not be, I really can't say.) But MS has pretty much used up their last do-over in this round. This is it for better or worse.

    Completely and utterly false. 'You' don't need anything.
    To use Office RT for business purposes?!? Perhaps you need to tell Microsoft that they don't understand the licensing for their own systems. From their FAQ:

    Office 2013 RT FAQs - Office.com

    Can I use Office 2013 RT for work or business?

    As sold, Office 2013 RT is not designed for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities. However, organizations who purchase commercial use rights or have a commercial license to Office 2013 suites that include Outlook can use Office 2013 RT for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities.


    A very passive aggressive post. I commend you on your eloquence, however, I don't believe you when you say you truly like the product, which is OK by me. Thank goodness for choice!


    Sent from our Surface RT
    Look, you can believe whatever you want. But I'll tell you this: I don't bother discussing things I fundametally don't like. There are probably essentially an infinite number of things in this world that I dislike. I don't waste my time arguing or debating those, or I'd never get anything done.
    Last edited by mrpuny; 09-08-2013 at 07:04 PM.
    09-08-2013 06:50 PM
  12. Youft's Avatar
    I completely understand what you mean, but then I tried to do what I do when things in the Iphone appear too small, just increase the view percentage the same way you would do it in the IPhone with your two fingers and that should do it.
    09-10-2013 05:19 PM
  13. cckgz4's Avatar
    I will be making the jump to the surface by the holidays or shortly after.
    09-10-2013 05:57 PM
  14. joshwithachance's Avatar
    I just received my RT today from that amazing eBay deal, and am totally smitten with it. It's fast, the hardware and OS are gorgeous, it has a decent amount of apps, and the built in kickstand paired with the Touch cover take it to the next level. This is the first tablet that I feel can truly replace a laptop depending on if you have a desktop for heavier tasks.
    09-10-2013 08:13 PM
  15. E Lizzle's Avatar
    I have a question about your ability to remote on an RT. Even over a fast 10 mbps connection. How can an RT or iPad running basically a netbook style cpu and gpu control even a mid range laptop?
    The processing is all done on the host machine. Boiled down, the RT or iPad is just sending controller events to the host PC, where the apps are actually running, and the host PC transmits its screen output.

    -E
    09-11-2013 12:43 PM
  16. marcomura's Avatar
    (cut) Btw why do so many people. HATE the desktop so much?
    Actually, I hate RT because I cannot run unsigned applications (custom exe compiled for arm).
    09-11-2013 12:47 PM
  17. E Lizzle's Avatar
    Actually, I hate RT because I cannot run unsigned applications (custom exe compiled for arm).
    Can't you jailbreak it?

    -E
    09-11-2013 01:39 PM
  18. marcomura's Avatar
    Can't you jailbreak it?
    Why should I buy something I need to jailbreak?
    Anyway, afaik there is no good jailbreak for WinRT so far...
    09-11-2013 01:50 PM
  19. Kellzea's Avatar
    Why should I buy something I need to jailbreak?
    Anyway, afaik there is no good jailbreak for WinRT so far...
    apart from the one that lets you run x86 applications..........

    Lrn2xda
    09-11-2013 04:53 PM
  20. marcomura's Avatar
    apart from the one that lets you run x86 applications..........
    If you're talking about the Win86Emu, it is based on this jailbreak (the only one existent afaik).
    It requires a PC to execute the remote debugger on the RT you want to break, and you need to re-break at every RT reboot. This is why I don't consider it good.
    09-11-2013 06:24 PM
  21. montsa007's Avatar
    Launch a product for $1k and after a month or so make it $200, what else can you expect?
    09-12-2013 03:37 AM
  22. Kellzea's Avatar
    Launch a product for $1k and after a month or so make it $200, what else can you expect?
    And what product, prey-tell is this you speak of?
    09-12-2013 08:43 AM
  23. prlundberg's Avatar
    Actually, I hate RT because I cannot run unsigned applications (custom exe compiled for arm).
    That is a valid complaint. Considering the not-so-great jailbreak, it makes it essentially even more locked down than iOS. Microsoft has forgotten its roots.
    09-12-2013 09:42 AM
  24. montsa007's Avatar
    And what product, prey-tell is this you speak of?
    Lets say you purchased a newly launched innovative product for $800, and because its not doing well in the market 2 weeks later you see it on sale for $100 on Ebay, how'd you feel?
    If you wanted to sell it to someone, I don't think anyone would pay over $40 or so, as it was available for 100 bucks, so the 800 you paid went down the drain for no fault of yours, imagine countless people in the same scenario.

    a few weeks back, this tablet for available for 200 bucks, read some articles a few months back that this product did not deliver what it was expected to and they want to get rid of it.

    This is 1 of the reasons I think the product is hated, I don't own it but have seen some stuff about it.
    09-12-2013 10:35 AM
  25. E Lizzle's Avatar
    I don't see that as a good reason. You can buy refurb Black and Decker lawn equipment, direct from B&D, on ebay for like 25% of what the stuff sells for at Home Depot. People aren't hating on B&D.

    -E
    09-12-2013 11:08 AM
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