10-01-2014 12:16 AM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    It's been speculated that Windows RT 9 may remove the desktop I hope they don't, I love the desktop for file management, Notepad, Office, Paint, and the alternative IE.
    They won't remove the desktop. They just won't add the desktop to Windows 9 for Mobile Devices (or whatever the WP derivative will be called), which is what future (non-Pro) Windows tablets will run. In exchange, they'll add a modern UI enabled version of Office (which already exists for iOS and Android devices), and based on rumours, it sounds like they'll also add a more powerful modern UI based file manager. So at least as far as those two applications are concerned, I'd hope you'll be perfectly fine even without the desktop.

    Anyway, thanks for the article! It's nice to read something from someone who's thought about how all of MS' products and services fit together, and what role Windows RT's legacy (the WinRT API and runtime environment) has to play within MS' vast ecosystem.
    HeyCori and Guytronic like this.
    09-16-2014 07:46 PM
  2. RajeevT's Avatar
    I read most of Mary's stuff, but I can't remember any such statement. Any chance you remember which of her articles that was in? I'm sceptical those were Mary's exact words, because there won't be a WinRT9, at least not in the technical sense, and Mary's sources do tend to be technically accurate.
    Hey a5cent, by WinRT9 I was referring (for the lack of a better name) to the ARM version of Threshold or Windows 9 or whatever they end up calling it. Presumably this is the version that will merge Windows Phone and RT.

    Windows 'Threshold' and cadence: How fast is too fast? | ZDNet

    There will be a separate preview of Threshold running on ARM processors, too. My sources are saying the current target date for that preview is January or February 2015. As the ARM-based version of Threshold -- which should run on both Windows Phones and tablets -- isn't expected to include the Windows desktop, the focus will be on changes Microsoft is making to the Metro-Style Start screen environment.
    That quote makes me hopeful that the Preview will be available for some or all current RT tablets either via the Store or maybe as device-specific bootable installation images with the appropriate drivers integrated. If the Preview of the merged OS is made available only for ARM phones and not ARM tablets it will be highly disappointing and also quite short-sighted on their part (especially considering their plans to ask for user feedback and tailor the OS accordingly). Still waiting for more info though...
    a5cent likes this.
    09-16-2014 08:14 PM
  3. HeyCori's Avatar
    Why do people want full windows on tablets is beyond me. I mean yes, for now, while windows store isn't as mature. But seriously. Reading, media, web browsing, social networking, casual gaming can all be done through modern apps. That leaves productivity software. But for that, you may need PCs or really good keyboard accessories. Office is already making a move to touch version. Adobe's creative suite will make more sense on touch. Same goes for every other designing software. If those programs make fully featured modern(windows store) apps, will we need full windows anymore? Apart from heavy gaming or resource intensive software?
    I have an 8 inch Toshiba Encore and despite all the naysayers proclaiming how impossible it is to use desktop on a tablet, I'm getting by just fine. And you know what? It's awesome. I'm not avoiding metro. I'll gladly use it when it's efficient or when the metro app is better than the desktop equivalent. But there's a lot you can do using the desktop. Is an 8 inch screen, Intel Atom processor the best for Photoshop? Course not. However, that doesn't discredit the countless other useful applications available for Windows. And is it so bad that someone occasionally has to use a mouse and keyboard? There's plenty of mouse/keyboards made specifically for iOS and Android. In fact, Microsoft just announced a brand new keyboard that works on iOS and Android phones/tablets.

    Microsoft has a new keyboard for your phablet, works with iOS and Android - Neowin

    It just goes to show, everyone that wants to get real work done will buy a mouse and keyboard. It doesn't matter what platform you're on.
    09-16-2014 08:40 PM
  4. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    I think it's pretty clear from the Win9 preview announcement that the Desktop/Win32 API will see a big revival in Win9 (the announcement specifically referred to the "Enterprise", which means "Desktop/Win32"). WinRT apps will run in windows on the Desktop, the Metro shell becomes optional, etc.

    I imagine that "Windows RT" will disappear officially but the remains will continue on as what runs on phones and whatever cheapo Windows ARM tablets are available (if any) -- then die with them in a few years.
    09-16-2014 09:24 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    That quote makes me hopeful that the Preview will be available for some or all current RT tablets either via the Store or maybe as device-specific bootable installation images with the appropriate drivers integrated. If the Preview of the merged OS is made available only for ARM phones and not ARM tablets it will be highly disappointing and also quite short-sighted on their part (especially considering their plans to ask for user feedback and tailor the OS accordingly). Still waiting for more info though...
    Thank you! I missed that. Interesting indeed! I've spent some time pondering this and I think you're probably right about that preview coming to (at least some) Windows ARM tablets. That process even gave me some speculative insights into what to expect from the next version of MS Office.

    I'll take this opportunity to predict that we likely won't get separate, touch enabled versions of Microsoft's Office applications, as they have on Android or iOS. We're more likely to get a single version of each MS Office application that can configure itself to run in either modern UI or desktop mode. On devices without the desktop they'll just run exclusively in modern UI mode. IE already works in this way, and MS Office will likely adopt a similar, if not the identical approach.



    Hey a5cent, by WinRT9 I was referring (for the lack of a better name) to the ARM version of Threshold.
    Yeah, tell me about it. The current situation is ridiculous because there really is no good way of refering to it. I'll be calling it W94MD (Windows 94 Millennium Deluxe)... for the time being...

    I do understand how it makes sense to call it WinRT9 though. It is, after all, replacing Windows 8 RT in its role as MS' tablet OS. On the other hand, Windows 8 RT is just plain old Windows (with an added restriction that disallows the installation of desktop applications), whereas its replacement will be 1/10th the size and will have evolved from a completely different OS called WP. I guess we could say WinRT9 emphasizes brand/marketing lineage, whereas WP9 emphasizes technical lineage. Neither name paints the full picture, hence my clumsy W94MD (actually... Windows 9 for Mobile Devices)
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-16-2014 at 10:10 PM. Reason: spelling
    RajeevT likes this.
    09-16-2014 09:59 PM
  6. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I have an 8 inch Toshiba Encore and despite all the naysayers proclaiming how impossible it is to use desktop on a tablet, I'm getting by just fine. And you know what? It's awesome. I'm not avoiding metro. I'll gladly use it when it's efficient or when the metro app is better than the desktop equivalent. But there's a lot you can do using the desktop. Is an 8 inch screen, Intel Atom processor the best for Photoshop? Course not. However, that doesn't discredit the countless other useful applications available for Windows. And is it so bad that someone occasionally has to use a mouse and keyboard? There's plenty of mouse/keyboards made specifically for iOS and Android. In fact, Microsoft just announced a brand new keyboard that works on iOS and Android phones/tablets.

    Microsoft has a new keyboard for your phablet, works with iOS and Android - Neowin

    It just goes to show, everyone that wants to get real work done will buy a mouse and keyboard. It doesn't matter what platform you're on.
    I didn't say you can't use desktop on a tablet. I meant to say that it seriously undermines the 'productive experience' you're looking for. Sure you can get work done but it wouldn't be the same. The only hybrid device which came close to perfection is Surface Pro 3 maybe.
    I also meant to say that, for people who don't rely on productivity software, modern version is perfectly capable for most of their needs without asking for a full windows even with the immaturity of windows store. That and the added advantage of ergonomics, superior battery life etc.
    Plus, I was also referring to people who want windows runtime framework to die. I mean, maybe they didn't get the memo but THIS is the way forward. Companies who develop productivity software's may not realize it yet but they will jump ship to touch focused versions in a few years(because they are more intuitive in my personal opinion) plus for casual users, mobile and tablet versions have more advantages which may also account for the success for these devices and their market share.
    neo158 and HeyCori like this.
    09-17-2014 12:04 AM
  7. jordanzhninja's Avatar
    I don't want to run desktop apps on a tablet. It's just stupid. Give me RT with it's long battery life any day.
    Lol. But Windows RT does have desktop apps that you are clinging to like Word, Excel, Outlook, File explorer, CMD etc. Why?

    Because Windows RT needs the desktop to function as an OS. In WinRT 9 they wont "remove it", they will hide it away but still use it for the things that require legit power rather than sandboxed "app" power.

    The problem with Windows RT diehards saying "an app store in enough" dont release that Windows 8.1 has that very same app store + the biggest PROGRAM (real software) store of any platform (bigger than Android, iOS, OSX and Linux) called Win32.

    Why have WinRT apps when you could have WinRT apps AND Win32 programs? For 2-3 extra hours of battery life? Are you actually using your tablet for 10 hours every day? If you are then god help you but the reality is that you proably use it for 5 hours a day or maybe less. So that difference in battery life is just pure marketing hype, as it always is.

    Why do people want full windows on tablets is beyond me. I mean yes, for now, while windows store isn't as mature. But seriously. Reading, media, web browsing, social networking, casual gaming can all be done through modern apps. That leaves productivity software. But for that, you may need PCs or really good keyboard accessories. Office is already making a move to touch version. Adobe's creative suite will make more sense on touch. Same goes for every other designing software. If those programs make fully featured modern(windows store) apps, will we need full windows anymore? Apart from heavy gaming or resource intensive software?
    Office for touch will be terrible compared to Office for Win32. Next.

    Adobe CC is not available for the Windows store, unless you think Photoshop express is as powerful as Photoshop CC. Next.

    Autodesk is not available for the Windows store. Neither is Lightroom, Fireworks, Visual studio, Chrome, Firefox, Audacity, Fraps, Steam, VMware, and so on. And they never will be. Sandboxing these apps into the Windows runtime will mean they will lose all the functionality they have and it will turn them into apps instead of programs people use every day for work.

    So yes, we do and always will need Win32. "Full windows" as you call it. Because Windows runtime and Windows RT are built upon Win32. We don't need Windows runtime at all but its nice to have as an addition to Win32 software. Deciding to make an OS that can only run Windows Runtime apps instead of the millions of programs software developers have been working on since XP and earlier was the stupidest idea ever. *

    * I didnt say vista because vista was amazing, and anyone who says otherwise is deluded as f***
    Last edited by Guytronic; 09-17-2014 at 11:55 AM.
    09-17-2014 09:36 AM
  8. John Steffes's Avatar
    I use my Surface RT 64G everyday, I got it to replace an old Windows XP box (it came with Windows 95 OSR2), anyway, even though it is a Surface, I use it with the type cover 2 about 98% of the time, I use Outlook, Word, IE, Music... Every once in a while I will use the games I have downloaded from the store... But I use it like a Laptop (although it sits on my desk about 80% of the time)...

    If they (Microsoft) got rid of the Desktop and moved everything to touch including Office and File Management I would sell this in heart beat...

    I have always wanted a hybrid laptop/tablet, which included office... it is worth every $179 I paid for it (on clearance) would I have paid $500, NO...

    Microsoft I hope understands there are those who want a tablet to do tablet things, there are those of use who want a tablet with keyboard to do productive things, and even though I can not run x86 apps/programs I have not had any issue replacing my old computer...
    Philip Hamm likes this.
    09-17-2014 10:46 AM
  9. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    Office for touch will be terrible compared to Office for Win32. Next.

    Adobe CC is not available for the Windows store, unless you think Photoshop express is as powerful as Photoshop CC. Next.

    Autodesk is not available for the Windows store. Neither is Lightroom, Fireworks, Visual studio, Chrome, Firefox, Audacity, Fraps, Steam, VMware, and so on. And they never will be. Sandboxing these apps into the Windows runtime will mean they will lose all the functionality they have and it will turn them into apps instead of programs people use every day for work.

    So yes, we do and always will need Win32. "Full windows" as you call it.
    Please explain why will it be terrible?

    Also, why will they never make an appearance for windows store? Why does sandboxing an app means it has to lose features?

    I never said we don't need Win32. I said why you need it on tablets? If work is so important to you, aren't you better off with PCs(laptops) with more raw power and better keyboard and mouse support?

    Like I said, windows runtime is made for casual users. Who may not often use their computers for work. But most importantly, it was made for touch interfaces. Now you say that it is based on Win32 and we know it is maturing as we speak so, what is to stop it from having as much power as win32 in future?
    09-17-2014 11:35 AM
  10. jordanzhninja's Avatar
    Please explain why will it be terrible?

    Also, why will they never make an appearance for windows store? Why does sandboxing an app means it has to lose features?

    I never said we don't need Win32. I said why you need it on tablets? If work is so important to you, aren't you better off with PCs(laptops) with more raw power and better keyboard and mouse support?

    Like I said, windows runtime is made for casual users. Who may not often use their computers for work. But most importantly, it was made for touch interfaces. Now you say that it is based on Win32 and we know it is maturing as we speak so, what is to stop it from having as much power as win32 in future?
    The way Windows runtime is designed means it cant reach the power of Win32. For one, Windows store apps cant speak to each other, but Win32 programs can
    09-17-2014 11:37 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    The way Windows runtime is designed means it cant reach the power of Win32. For one, Windows store apps cant speak to each other, but Win32 programs can

    This makes zero sense.

    First, you are overestimating the importance of Win32 for WinRT. Windows Phone already includes the majority of WinRT, yet it gets by without any part of Win32. The next version of WP will include all of WinRT, again, without Win32. One is not really based on the other.

    Second, WinRT is just starting out. On the other hand, Win32 has been with us for two decades. There was also a time when Win32 lacked inter process communication mechanisms, or a gazillion other things for that matter. These things have changed for Win32, as they will for WinRT, over time.

    To me, it looks like you are basing all your opinions and predictions on how things are right now. Apparently, you believe that everything about how WinRT works (API and runtime) is set in stone. With that approach, your predictions will achieve a consistent zero percent accuracy rating.

    I think I disagree with almost all of your statements here so far. We'll have to wait and see who is right.
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-17-2014 at 10:10 PM. Reason: spelling
    09-17-2014 12:13 PM
  12. FredW3's Avatar
    RT is probably a dead end. I recently bought a tablet for nearly the same price as my RT tablet that had an Itel Atom processor, so it runs full Windows 8.1. It is much more responsive than my RT tablet and can run Windows 7 software (and the desktop). I don't see any reason to get anything running RT when you can get a better product for almost the same money.
    09-17-2014 03:36 PM
  13. rmeigs's Avatar
    I don't want to run desktop apps on a tablet. It's just stupid. Give me RT with it's long battery life any day.
    Spot on herbertsnow! The last thing I need is to try and deal with full desktop programs on an 8 inch screen. These are consumption devises! I'll take all day battery life and easy touch interface.
    neo158 likes this.
    09-17-2014 04:16 PM
  14. RajeevT's Avatar
    I'll take this opportunity to predict that we likely won't get separate, touch enabled versions of Microsoft's Office applications, as they have on Android or iOS. We're more likely to get a single version of each MS Office application that can configure itself to run in either modern UI or desktop mode. On devices without the desktop they'll just run exclusively in modern UI mode. IE already works in this way, and MS Office will likely adopt a similar, if not the identical approach.
    That's interesting, I never considered this possibility so far. I have to say though that losing access to the desktop versions of Office apps on Windows RT is going to be a huge disappointment to me, because the Metro versions will quite likely be far less capable. If we had a choice of switching between both modes at will (even if the desktop itself has been hidden in Threshold for ARM) I'd be a happy camper indeed.

    Yeah, tell me about it. The current situation is ridiculous because there really is no good way of refering to it. I'll be calling it W94MD (Windows 94 Millennium Deluxe)... for the time being...
    Heh, "Windows 9 for (4) Mass Destruction"?

    whereas its replacement will be 1/10th the size and will have evolved from a completely different OS called WP
    Depending on the code base for all we know they might find it easier to cut down Windows RT and then add features from WP, instead of going the other way. In either case I'm really looking forward to massive space savings on tablets (will at last make the 32GB ones useful), unless Windows Setup installs more features on tablets than phones (not inconceivable).
    Philip Hamm likes this.
    09-17-2014 11:31 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Depending on the code base for all we know they might find it easier to cut down Windows RT and then add features from WP, instead of going the other way.
    We know enough, to know how MS will approach it.

    It's a software engineering "law of nature", that it is far easier to add features to a piece of infrastructure-software (like an OS) than it is to remove from it... at least if the end result must function reliably. That already leaves very little probability of MS choosing RT as the basis.

    In the context of a discussion about merging RT and WP, an MS official (I think Meyerson) also mentioned exactly that "law", which leaves no doubt.

    What we really do not know however, is how fully featured and simultaneously mouse/keyboard friendly the touch enabled version of Office will be. Many are just assuming, for whatever reasons, that it will be less powerful than the desktop version.
    If TO (Touch-Office) and DO (Desktop-Office) turn out to be the exact same program however, just with the ability to switch UIs, then I see no reason why TO should be any less powerful or feature complete.

    In fact, if TO were to fully replace DO on current Windows ARM tablets, it would have to be the equal of DO, if it is to be accepted as part of the OS update for existing ARM Surface tablets.

    Either way, Office running in DO mode, on an OS that lacks the desktop, likely wouldn't be possible, as that would require parts of Win32 which likely wouldn't be available. But again, why would that even matter if TO is functionally equivalent?

    To be clear, my point is not so much about predicting MS' moves (currently involving a lot of "if's") but about pointing out that scenarios exist where a tablet OS without the desktop UI could still provide a fully featured version of Office without compromises.
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-20-2014 at 10:44 AM. Reason: formatting
    HeyCori and DoctorSaline like this.
    09-18-2014 08:23 AM
  16. RajeevT's Avatar
    What we really do not know however, is how fully featured and simultaneously mouse/keyboard friendly the touch enabled version of Office will be. Many are just assuming, for whatever reasons, that it will be less powerful than the desktop version.
    I don't know about anyone else but the reason I am assuming this is because I have a hard time imagining just how they will ever port over the complexity and hundreds of settings and features of desktop Office to Metro Office. Have you used Office for iPad? I have a feeling Metro Office will be quite similar. Can you think of any Metro app so far that is remotely as complex as desktop Office? It's just a basic UI constraint I feel, but maybe MS will prove me wrong. We'll see. If Metro Office turns out not to be feature equivalent to desktop Office then I'll choose not to upgrade the OS even if it's free, and eventually toss the device, give up on RT entirely and buy one that runs full Windows instead.
    Philip Hamm likes this.
    09-18-2014 10:13 PM
  17. neo158's Avatar
    Lol. But Windows RT does have desktop apps that you are clinging to like Word, Excel, Outlook, File explorer, CMD etc. Why?
    Because Windows RT needs the desktop to function as an OS. In WinRT 9 they wont "remove it", they will hide it away but still use it for the things that require legit power rather than sandboxed "app" power.
    The problem with Windows RT diehards saying "an app store in enough" dont release that Windows 8.1 has that very same app store + the biggest PROGRAM (real software) store of any platform (bigger than Android, iOS, OSX and Linux) called Win32.
    Why have WinRT apps when you could have WinRT apps AND Win32 programs? For 2-3 extra hours of battery life? Are you actually using your tablet for 10 hours every day? If you are then god help you but the reality is that you proably use it for 5 hours a day or maybe less. So that difference in battery life is just pure marketing hype, as it always is.
    Yes, RT has got Desktop applications, Office and Windows utilities... for now, Windows RT 9 WILL remove the desktop and add a touch based version of Office. Saying that Windows RT REQUIRES the desktop to function as an OS is like saying that iOS REQUIRES the MacOS Desktop in order to function as an OS, it doesn't and as I said before in RT they WILL remove the desktop. How do you know otherwise?

    Different users have different usage scenarios and if you can't see that then that's your problem, I have no need for desktop applications on a tablet as I have a desktop for that, so I appreciate being able to use my tablet for 10 hours, not in one day, but knowing that I have enough power to last for several hours usage over several days is a good thing, are you saying that it isn't?

    You seem to have a lot of hatred for anything touch based and unfortunately mobile computing IS the way forward and you're going to get left behind if continue hating on touch screen computing and the WinRT APIs.
    Jonathanmr7 likes this.
    09-20-2014 10:11 AM
  18. John Steffes's Avatar
    Yes, RT has got Desktop applications, Office and Windows utilities... for now, Windows RT 9 WILL remove the desktop and add a touch based version of Office. Saying that Windows RT REQUIRES the desktop to function as an OS is like saying that iOS REQUIRES the MacOS Desktop in order to function as an OS, it doesn't and as I said before in RT they WILL remove the desktop. How do you know otherwise?

    Different users have different usage scenarios and if you can't see that then that's your problem, I have no need for desktop applications on a tablet as I have a desktop for that, so I appreciate being able to use my tablet for 10 hours, not in one day, but knowing that I have enough power to last for several hours usage over several days is a good thing, are you saying that it isn't?

    You seem to have a lot of hatred for anything touch based and unfortunately mobile computing IS the way forward and you're going to get left behind if continue hating on touch screen computing and the WinRT APIs.
    I completely disagree, I have a surface RT 64G, I use it as a replacement for Windows XP, I have tweaked Windows RT 8.1 to go to the desktop, I use outlook, word, IE, basic internet access and Remote Desktop, for a Laptop replacement it has surpassed my expectation, I understand others want a tablet to do tablet things, but this is a hybrid device, it can be used as both, to remove the desktop would be suicide to the hybrid design, even in their keynotes they mentioned the market they were trying to design these for. I use the device as a tablet, and I use it as a laptop (Windows XP) replacement...

    If Microsoft in Windows RT 10 removes the desktop, then they have destroyed the hybrid design they created the Surface RT/2 for... I understand everyone has their opinion this is my take on it...
    Last edited by John Steffes; 09-30-2014 at 05:41 PM.
    09-20-2014 12:03 PM
  19. Philip Hamm's Avatar
    John Steffes I agree in a way. I love that the desktop is there on my Surface. However, if they make touch based Office that's just as powerful as the Desktop versions, and also make a touch based file manager, and touch based Notepad, I'll be happy.
    a5cent and Jonathanmr7 like this.
    09-20-2014 05:07 PM
  20. fatclue_98's Avatar
    My only beef with RT has always been the lack of pen input and the omission of Windows Journal. Other than that, there's not much you can't do by using desktop IE.
    Guytronic likes this.
    09-20-2014 08:54 PM
  21. John Steffes's Avatar
    John Steffes I agree in a way. I love that the desktop is there on my Surface. However, if they make touch based Office that's just as powerful as the Desktop versions, and also make a touch based file manager, and touch based Notepad, I'll be happy.
    The problem with the tablet interface is it limits the apps I can use, sure I can snap two (or three), apps side by side, but I do not want snapped apps when I work inside outlook/word/IE, I have all three open with lots of windows of each app in there respected location, Windows was designed that way from Windows 1.0 to Windows now (Desktop Side), I like the metro/modern UI for tablet apps, but when I want productivity apps, I want to open several apps...

    So I use windows desktop calc and word all the time, if they were metro/modern apps yes I could snap them side by side, but then loose what is happening in the background with outlook, time, ie, etc... (Drives me nuts, I want to change what is happening in the xbox music app, I have to switch full screen to that app, modify it, then snap back to the desktop, if they would have stuck with windows being a windows manager, then xbox music could be an app resized on the desktop, this is what they keep saying they are changing for Windows 8.2/9)

    Remember their design was a hybrid, when used like a tablet, it acts like a tablet, when used like a laptop is should act like a laptop. This is the market they designed these for, their commercials do not show it (fancy music, dancing, and clicking keyboards)...
    09-21-2014 04:55 AM
  22. neo158's Avatar
    The problem with the tablet interface is it limits the apps I can use, sure I can snap two (or three), apps side by side, but I do not want snapped apps when I work inside outlook/word/IE, I have all three open with lots of windows of each app in there respected location, Windows was designed that way from Windows 1.0 to Windows now (Desktop Side), I like the metro/modern UI for tablet apps, but when I want productivity apps, I want to open several apps...

    So I use windows desktop calc and word all the time, if they were metro/modern apps yes I could snap them side by side, but then loose what is happening in the background with outlook, time, ie, etc... (Drives me nuts, I want to change what is happening in the xbox music app, I have to switch full screen to that app, modify it, then snap back to the desktop, if they would have stuck with windows being a windows manager, then xbox music could be an app resized on the desktop, this is what they keep saying they are changing for Windows 8.2/9)

    Remember their design was a hybrid, when used like a tablet, it acts like a tablet, when used like a laptop is should act like a laptop. This is the market they designed these for, their commercials do not show it (fancy music, dancing, and clicking keyboards)...
    While I see what you're talking about it seems that you don't understand the difference between Windows RT and Windows. Windows RT is for ARM based tablets, consumption devices like the iPad. Windows is designed for x86/x64, content creation devices like Surface Pro 3.

    Why do I say this, people seem to be under the distinct impression that Windows 9 removes the desktop and that isn't the case. The desktop is staying in Windows 9 and the desktop is being removed in Windows RT 9.

    It sounds to me that you are looking for a full Windows experience from a Windows RT tablet when a full x86/x64 Windows tablet would suit you better.
    Last edited by neo158; 09-21-2014 at 07:30 AM.
    a5cent likes this.
    09-21-2014 05:28 AM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    Remember their [Windows RT] design was a hybrid, when used like a tablet, it acts like a tablet, when used like a laptop is should act like a laptop. This is the market they designed these for,

    The fact that the desktop exists at all on Windows RT is not a result of deliberate design, but simply a consequence of desktop availability being the only way MS could include Office as part of the Surface RT bundle. If MS had all the infrastructure in place and been ready to launch metro Office at the time, you would never have seen the desktop on Windows RT. This is simply a result of technical and economic limitations, nothing more.

    The hybrid devices you refer to are not based on Windows RT. If you want a real hybrid design, with fully accessible desktop and metro environments, then that is what the convertables running plain old Windows are for, where you have high performance Intel Core (more ultrabook like) or battery-life optimized Intel Atom (more tablet like) variants to chose from.

    Windows RT was a pseudo-hybrid design out of necessity, not choice. IMHO the fact that you consider the remnants of the desktop an important feature suggests to me that your future upgrade path will lead you away from MS' tablet OS and more towards a Windows convertable, where you will continue to have all the options you desire.
    neo158 likes this.
    09-21-2014 07:13 AM
  24. John Steffes's Avatar
    While I see what you're talking about it seems that you don't understand the difference between Windows RT and Windows. Windows RT is for ARM based tablets, consumption devices like the iPad. Windows is designed for x86/x64, content creation devices like Surface Pro 3.

    Why do I say this, people seem to be under the distinct impression that Windows 9 removes the desktop and that isn't the case. The desktop is staying in Windows 9 and the desktop is being removed in Windows RT 9.

    It sounds to me that you are looking for a full Windows experience from a Windows RT tablet when a full x86/x64 Windows tablet would suit you better.
    I disagree, you would not create a tablet that can use a full functioning keyboard (touch or type), include office, if it was not meant to have a desktop experience?

    I understand you have a right to your opinion, but this is my understanding watch the original surface rt keynote ( ) seems they are showing both in their design...

    The fact that the desktop exists at all on Windows RT is not a result of deliberate design, but simply a consequence of desktop availability being the only way MS could include Office as part of the Surface RT bundle. If MS had all the infrastructure in place and been ready to launch metro Office at the time, you would never have seen the desktop on Windows RT. This is simply a result of technical and economic limitations, nothing more.

    The hybrid devices you refer to are not based on Windows RT. If you want a real hybrid design, with fully accessible desktop and metro environments, then that is what the convertables running plain old Windows are for, where you have high performance Intel Core (more ultrabook like) or battery-life optimized Intel Atom (more tablet like) variants to chose from.

    Windows RT was a pseudo-hybrid design out of necessity, not choice. IMHO the fact that you consider the remnants of the desktop an important feature suggests to me that your future upgrade path will lead you away from MS' tablet OS and more towards a Windows convertable, where you will continue to have all the options you desire.
    I agree to disagree, if you watch the keynote, they included office, they included a keyboard/mouse input, they talk about connecting to printers, they talk about long flights with watching movies and producing content. If it was just for a consumption device they would have never allowed a keyboard/mouse to interact, they created a hybrid device that can be a tablet and a laptop... I wanted a laptop/tablet replacement for my old Windows XP laptop, the surface RT 64G has surpassed my expectations, (came with office), I did not want to get a surface pro (run IE and get malware and viruses), I get the best of both worlds...
    09-21-2014 09:05 AM
  25. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    ... IMHO the fact that you consider the remnants of the desktop an important feature suggests to me that your future upgrade path will lead you away from MS' tablet OS and more towards a Windows convertable, where you will continue to have all the options you desire.
    No, the fact that Windows RT and Metro are failures will lead everyone towards Windows convertibles in the future, regardless of what they want. MSFT forced the Windows Phone UI and framework (Metro and WinRT API) onto its popular products (Desktop Windows and Win32) in an attempt to boost Windows Phone. It was a devastating failure which cost MSFT its CEO, billions of $$$ in losses, billions of $$$ in losses from the buyout of Nokia, and untold billions of $$$ in the future from reduced interest in the general Windows community.
    09-21-2014 09:24 AM
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