Windows RT is dead?

Jonathanmr7

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I don't want to run desktop apps on a tablet. It's just stupid. Give me RT with it's long battery life any day.


That's what I think, I have a laptop with 8.1 why I want a desktop on a small screen or some else.. That's why I think on a surface rt but i need a clue if they gonna update or have future...
 

Guytronic

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I'm all for the salvation of RT thru OS morphing.
Never did like my other tabs using the other platforms.

I think full blast Windows on a tablet is the best thing since pre-packaged pasta.
 

RajeevT

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What I'd like to find out is whether people will be able to install WP9 (or whatever it is called) on existing ARM based Windows RT tablets. I'm expecting not, but I like positive surprises ;-)
The Preview version of WinRT9 is expected to be released early next year (Jan or Feb) according to Mary Jo Foley. If we aren't able to install it on existing RT tablets and will have to wait for new hardware then the Preview makes no sense at all. Perhaps the Surface RT as the oldest of the lot might be skipped, but at this point I fully expect the Preview to be available for the Surface 2 and the 2520.
 

DoctorSaline

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Why do people want full windows on tablets is beyond me. I mean yes, for now, while windows store isn't as mature. But seriously. Reading, media, web browsing, social networking, casual gaming can all be done through modern apps. That leaves productivity software. But for that, you may need PCs or really good keyboard accessories. Office is already making a move to touch version. Adobe's creative suite will make more sense on touch. Same goes for every other designing software. If those programs make fully featured modern(windows store) apps, will we need full windows anymore? Apart from heavy gaming or resource intensive software?
 

a5cent

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The Preview version of WinRT9 is expected to be released early next year (Jan or Feb) according to Mary Jo Foley. If we aren't able to install it on existing RT tablets and will have to wait for new hardware then the Preview makes no sense at all. Perhaps the Surface RT as the oldest of the lot might be skipped, but at this point I fully expect the Preview to be available for the Surface 2 and the 2520.

Hey Rajeev

I read most of Mary's stuff, but I can't remember any such statement. Any chance you remember which of her articles that was in? I'm sceptical those were Mary's exact words, because there won't be a WinRT9, at least not in the technical sense, and Mary's sources do tend to be technically accurate.

I think it's rumoured that WP9 (or Windows 9 for Phone, or Windows 9 for Mobility, or whatever it will be called) is expected to RTM around that time however. I suspect that is what you're referring to. For WP devices that would no doubt be made accessible through the developer preview program, but I have no idea how existing Windows RT tablets would tie into that, which is why I'd be interested in said article. Can you help?
 

a5cent

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It's been speculated that Windows RT 9 may remove the desktop I hope they don't, I love the desktop for file management, Notepad, Office, Paint, and the alternative IE.

They won't remove the desktop. They just won't add the desktop to Windows 9 for Mobile Devices (or whatever the WP derivative will be called), which is what future (non-Pro) Windows tablets will run. In exchange, they'll add a modern UI enabled version of Office (which already exists for iOS and Android devices), and based on rumours, it sounds like they'll also add a more powerful modern UI based file manager. So at least as far as those two applications are concerned, I'd hope you'll be perfectly fine even without the desktop.

Anyway, thanks for the article! It's nice to read something from someone who's thought about how all of MS' products and services fit together, and what role Windows RT's legacy (the WinRT API and runtime environment) has to play within MS' vast ecosystem.
 

RajeevT

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I read most of Mary's stuff, but I can't remember any such statement. Any chance you remember which of her articles that was in? I'm sceptical those were Mary's exact words, because there won't be a WinRT9, at least not in the technical sense, and Mary's sources do tend to be technically accurate.
Hey a5cent, by WinRT9 I was referring (for the lack of a better name) to the ARM version of Threshold or Windows 9 or whatever they end up calling it. Presumably this is the version that will merge Windows Phone and RT.

Windows 'Threshold' and cadence: How fast is too fast? | ZDNet

Mary Jo Foley said:
There will be a separate preview of Threshold running on ARM processors, too. My sources are saying the current target date for that preview is January or February 2015. As the ARM-based version of Threshold -- which should run on both Windows Phones and tablets -- isn't expected to include the Windows desktop, the focus will be on changes Microsoft is making to the Metro-Style Start screen environment.

That quote makes me hopeful that the Preview will be available for some or all current RT tablets either via the Store or maybe as device-specific bootable installation images with the appropriate drivers integrated. If the Preview of the merged OS is made available only for ARM phones and not ARM tablets it will be highly disappointing and also quite short-sighted on their part (especially considering their plans to ask for user feedback and tailor the OS accordingly). Still waiting for more info though...
 

HeyCori

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Why do people want full windows on tablets is beyond me. I mean yes, for now, while windows store isn't as mature. But seriously. Reading, media, web browsing, social networking, casual gaming can all be done through modern apps. That leaves productivity software. But for that, you may need PCs or really good keyboard accessories. Office is already making a move to touch version. Adobe's creative suite will make more sense on touch. Same goes for every other designing software. If those programs make fully featured modern(windows store) apps, will we need full windows anymore? Apart from heavy gaming or resource intensive software?

I have an 8 inch Toshiba Encore and despite all the naysayers proclaiming how impossible it is to use desktop on a tablet, I'm getting by just fine. And you know what? It's awesome. I'm not avoiding metro. I'll gladly use it when it's efficient or when the metro app is better than the desktop equivalent. But there's a lot you can do using the desktop. Is an 8 inch screen, Intel Atom processor the best for Photoshop? Course not. However, that doesn't discredit the countless other useful applications available for Windows. And is it so bad that someone occasionally has to use a mouse and keyboard? There's plenty of mouse/keyboards made specifically for iOS and Android. In fact, Microsoft just announced a brand new keyboard that works on iOS and Android phones/tablets.

Microsoft has a new keyboard for your phablet, works with iOS and Android - Neowin

It just goes to show, everyone that wants to get real work done will buy a mouse and keyboard. It doesn't matter what platform you're on.
 

Mike Gibson

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I think it's pretty clear from the Win9 preview announcement that the Desktop/Win32 API will see a big revival in Win9 (the announcement specifically referred to the "Enterprise", which means "Desktop/Win32"). WinRT apps will run in windows on the Desktop, the Metro shell becomes optional, etc.

I imagine that "Windows RT" will disappear officially but the remains will continue on as what runs on phones and whatever cheapo Windows ARM tablets are available (if any) -- then die with them in a few years.
 

a5cent

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That quote makes me hopeful that the Preview will be available for some or all current RT tablets either via the Store or maybe as device-specific bootable installation images with the appropriate drivers integrated. If the Preview of the merged OS is made available only for ARM phones and not ARM tablets it will be highly disappointing and also quite short-sighted on their part (especially considering their plans to ask for user feedback and tailor the OS accordingly). Still waiting for more info though...

Thank you! I missed that. Interesting indeed! I've spent some time pondering this and I think you're probably right about that preview coming to (at least some) Windows ARM tablets. That process even gave me some speculative insights into what to expect from the next version of MS Office.

I'll take this opportunity to predict that we likely won't get separate, touch enabled versions of Microsoft's Office applications, as they have on Android or iOS. We're more likely to get a single version of each MS Office application that can configure itself to run in either modern UI or desktop mode. On devices without the desktop they'll just run exclusively in modern UI mode. IE already works in this way, and MS Office will likely adopt a similar, if not the identical approach.

:wink:

Hey a5cent, by WinRT9 I was referring (for the lack of a better name) to the ARM version of Threshold.

Yeah, tell me about it. The current situation is ridiculous because there really is no good way of refering to it. I'll be calling it W94MD (Windows 94 Millennium Deluxe)... for the time being...

I do understand how it makes sense to call it WinRT9 though. It is, after all, replacing Windows 8 RT in its role as MS' tablet OS. On the other hand, Windows 8 RT is just plain old Windows (with an added restriction that disallows the installation of desktop applications), whereas its replacement will be 1/10th the size and will have evolved from a completely different OS called WP. I guess we could say WinRT9 emphasizes brand/marketing lineage, whereas WP9 emphasizes technical lineage. Neither name paints the full picture, hence my clumsy W94MD (actually... Windows 9 for Mobile Devices)
 
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DoctorSaline

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I have an 8 inch Toshiba Encore and despite all the naysayers proclaiming how impossible it is to use desktop on a tablet, I'm getting by just fine. And you know what? It's awesome. I'm not avoiding metro. I'll gladly use it when it's efficient or when the metro app is better than the desktop equivalent. But there's a lot you can do using the desktop. Is an 8 inch screen, Intel Atom processor the best for Photoshop? Course not. However, that doesn't discredit the countless other useful applications available for Windows. And is it so bad that someone occasionally has to use a mouse and keyboard? There's plenty of mouse/keyboards made specifically for iOS and Android. In fact, Microsoft just announced a brand new keyboard that works on iOS and Android phones/tablets.

Microsoft has a new keyboard for your phablet, works with iOS and Android - Neowin

It just goes to show, everyone that wants to get real work done will buy a mouse and keyboard. It doesn't matter what platform you're on.

I didn't say you can't use desktop on a tablet. I meant to say that it seriously undermines the 'productive experience' you're looking for. Sure you can get work done but it wouldn't be the same. The only hybrid device which came close to perfection is Surface Pro 3 maybe.
I also meant to say that, for people who don't rely on productivity software, modern version is perfectly capable for most of their needs without asking for a full windows even with the immaturity of windows store. That and the added advantage of ergonomics, superior battery life etc.
Plus, I was also referring to people who want windows runtime framework to die. I mean, maybe they didn't get the memo but THIS is the way forward. Companies who develop productivity software's may not realize it yet but they will jump ship to touch focused versions in a few years(because they are more intuitive in my personal opinion) plus for casual users, mobile and tablet versions have more advantages which may also account for the success for these devices and their market share.
 

jordanzhninja

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I don't want to run desktop apps on a tablet. It's just stupid. Give me RT with it's long battery life any day.
Lol. But Windows RT does have desktop apps that you are clinging to like Word, Excel, Outlook, File explorer, CMD etc. Why?

Because Windows RT needs the desktop to function as an OS. In WinRT 9 they wont "remove it", they will hide it away but still use it for the things that require legit power rather than sandboxed "app" power.

The problem with Windows RT diehards saying "an app store in enough" dont release that Windows 8.1 has that very same app store + the biggest PROGRAM (real software) store of any platform (bigger than Android, iOS, OSX and Linux) called Win32.

Why have WinRT apps when you could have WinRT apps AND Win32 programs? For 2-3 extra hours of battery life? Are you actually using your tablet for 10 hours every day? If you are then god help you but the reality is that you proably use it for 5 hours a day or maybe less. So that difference in battery life is just pure marketing hype, as it always is.

Why do people want full windows on tablets is beyond me. I mean yes, for now, while windows store isn't as mature. But seriously. Reading, media, web browsing, social networking, casual gaming can all be done through modern apps. That leaves productivity software. But for that, you may need PCs or really good keyboard accessories. Office is already making a move to touch version. Adobe's creative suite will make more sense on touch. Same goes for every other designing software. If those programs make fully featured modern(windows store) apps, will we need full windows anymore? Apart from heavy gaming or resource intensive software?

Office for touch will be terrible compared to Office for Win32. Next.

Adobe CC is not available for the Windows store, unless you think Photoshop express is as powerful as Photoshop CC. Next.

Autodesk is not available for the Windows store. Neither is Lightroom, Fireworks, Visual studio, Chrome, Firefox, Audacity, Fraps, Steam, VMware, and so on. And they never will be. Sandboxing these apps into the Windows runtime will mean they will lose all the functionality they have and it will turn them into apps instead of programs people use every day for work.

So yes, we do and always will need Win32. "Full windows" as you call it. Because Windows runtime and Windows RT are built upon Win32. We don't need Windows runtime at all but its nice to have as an addition to Win32 software. Deciding to make an OS that can only run Windows Runtime apps instead of the millions of programs software developers have been working on since XP and earlier was the stupidest idea ever. *

* I didnt say vista because vista was amazing, and anyone who says otherwise is deluded as f***
 
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John Steffes

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I use my Surface RT 64G everyday, I got it to replace an old Windows XP box (it came with Windows 95 OSR2), anyway, even though it is a Surface, I use it with the type cover 2 about 98% of the time, I use Outlook, Word, IE, Music... Every once in a while I will use the games I have downloaded from the store... But I use it like a Laptop (although it sits on my desk about 80% of the time)...

If they (Microsoft) got rid of the Desktop and moved everything to touch including Office and File Management I would sell this in heart beat...

I have always wanted a hybrid laptop/tablet, which included office... it is worth every $179 I paid for it (on clearance) would I have paid $500, NO...

Microsoft I hope understands there are those who want a tablet to do tablet things, there are those of use who want a tablet with keyboard to do productive things, and even though I can not run x86 apps/programs I have not had any issue replacing my old computer...
 

DoctorSaline

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Office for touch will be terrible compared to Office for Win32. Next.

Adobe CC is not available for the Windows store, unless you think Photoshop express is as powerful as Photoshop CC. Next.

Autodesk is not available for the Windows store. Neither is Lightroom, Fireworks, Visual studio, Chrome, Firefox, Audacity, Fraps, Steam, VMware, and so on. And they never will be. Sandboxing these apps into the Windows runtime will mean they will lose all the functionality they have and it will turn them into apps instead of programs people use every day for work.

So yes, we do and always will need Win32. "Full windows" as you call it.

Please explain why will it be terrible?

Also, why will they never make an appearance for windows store? Why does sandboxing an app means it has to lose features?

I never said we don't need Win32. I said why you need it on tablets? If work is so important to you, aren't you better off with PCs(laptops) with more raw power and better keyboard and mouse support?

Like I said, windows runtime is made for casual users. Who may not often use their computers for work. But most importantly, it was made for touch interfaces. Now you say that it is based on Win32 and we know it is maturing as we speak so, what is to stop it from having as much power as win32 in future?
 

jordanzhninja

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Please explain why will it be terrible?

Also, why will they never make an appearance for windows store? Why does sandboxing an app means it has to lose features?

I never said we don't need Win32. I said why you need it on tablets? If work is so important to you, aren't you better off with PCs(laptops) with more raw power and better keyboard and mouse support?

Like I said, windows runtime is made for casual users. Who may not often use their computers for work. But most importantly, it was made for touch interfaces. Now you say that it is based on Win32 and we know it is maturing as we speak so, what is to stop it from having as much power as win32 in future?

The way Windows runtime is designed means it cant reach the power of Win32. For one, Windows store apps cant speak to each other, but Win32 programs can
 

a5cent

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The way Windows runtime is designed means it cant reach the power of Win32. For one, Windows store apps cant speak to each other, but Win32 programs can


This makes zero sense.

First, you are overestimating the importance of Win32 for WinRT. Windows Phone already includes the majority of WinRT, yet it gets by without any part of Win32. The next version of WP will include all of WinRT, again, without Win32. One is not really based on the other.

Second, WinRT is just starting out. On the other hand, Win32 has been with us for two decades. There was also a time when Win32 lacked inter process communication mechanisms, or a gazillion other things for that matter. These things have changed for Win32, as they will for WinRT, over time.

To me, it looks like you are basing all your opinions and predictions on how things are right now. Apparently, you believe that everything about how WinRT works (API and runtime) is set in stone. With that approach, your predictions will achieve a consistent zero percent accuracy rating.

I think I disagree with almost all of your statements here so far. We'll have to wait and see who is right.
 
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FredW3

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RT is probably a dead end. I recently bought a tablet for nearly the same price as my RT tablet that had an Itel Atom processor, so it runs full Windows 8.1. It is much more responsive than my RT tablet and can run Windows 7 software (and the desktop). I don't see any reason to get anything running RT when you can get a better product for almost the same money.
 

rmeigs

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I don't want to run desktop apps on a tablet. It's just stupid. Give me RT with it's long battery life any day.

Spot on herbertsnow! The last thing I need is to try and deal with full desktop programs on an 8 inch screen. These are consumption devises! I'll take all day battery life and easy touch interface.
 

RajeevT

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I'll take this opportunity to predict that we likely won't get separate, touch enabled versions of Microsoft's Office applications, as they have on Android or iOS. We're more likely to get a single version of each MS Office application that can configure itself to run in either modern UI or desktop mode. On devices without the desktop they'll just run exclusively in modern UI mode. IE already works in this way, and MS Office will likely adopt a similar, if not the identical approach.
That's interesting, I never considered this possibility so far. I have to say though that losing access to the desktop versions of Office apps on Windows RT is going to be a huge disappointment to me, because the Metro versions will quite likely be far less capable. If we had a choice of switching between both modes at will (even if the desktop itself has been hidden in Threshold for ARM) I'd be a happy camper indeed.

Yeah, tell me about it. The current situation is ridiculous because there really is no good way of refering to it. I'll be calling it W94MD (Windows 94 Millennium Deluxe)... for the time being...
Heh, "Windows 9 for (4) Mass Destruction"? :winktongue:

whereas its replacement will be 1/10th the size and will have evolved from a completely different OS called WP
Depending on the code base for all we know they might find it easier to cut down Windows RT and then add features from WP, instead of going the other way. In either case I'm really looking forward to massive space savings on tablets (will at last make the 32GB ones useful), unless Windows Setup installs more features on tablets than phones (not inconceivable).
 

a5cent

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Depending on the code base for all we know they might find it easier to cut down Windows RT and then add features from WP, instead of going the other way.
We know enough, to know how MS will approach it.

It's a software engineering "law of nature", that it is far easier to add features to a piece of infrastructure-software (like an OS) than it is to remove from it... at least if the end result must function reliably. That already leaves very little probability of MS choosing RT as the basis.

In the context of a discussion about merging RT and WP, an MS official (I think Meyerson) also mentioned exactly that "law", which leaves no doubt.

What we really do not know however, is how fully featured and simultaneously mouse/keyboard friendly the touch enabled version of Office will be. Many are just assuming, for whatever reasons, that it will be less powerful than the desktop version.
If TO (Touch-Office) and DO (Desktop-Office) turn out to be the exact same program however, just with the ability to switch UIs, then I see no reason why TO should be any less powerful or feature complete.

In fact, if TO were to fully replace DO on current Windows ARM tablets, it would have to be the equal of DO, if it is to be accepted as part of the OS update for existing ARM Surface tablets.

Either way, Office running in DO mode, on an OS that lacks the desktop, likely wouldn't be possible, as that would require parts of Win32 which likely wouldn't be available. But again, why would that even matter if TO is functionally equivalent?

To be clear, my point is not so much about predicting MS' moves (currently involving a lot of "if's") but about pointing out that scenarios exist where a tablet OS without the desktop UI could still provide a fully featured version of Office without compromises.
 
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