07-10-2013 11:51 AM
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  1. maverick786us's Avatar
    iPhone uses 560 X 1130 resolution which no way closer to 720P. At such a low resolution if its GPU will do a fine job. But can the same GPU work fine at higher resolution?
    06-26-2013 11:12 PM
  2. AngryNil's Avatar
    1080p → 1440p is going to be largely pointless. Android manufacturers can enjoy their brand new processors being bogged down by having to push all those pixels, for a higher pixel density that no one will notice in practice.

    What's more concerning is that Windows Phone is behind Microsoft's other products in development, despite being the poorest performing and least feature complete of them all. A better processor is always welcome (Snapdragon 400+600 for GDR3/Blue devices), but the software needs to improve fast. Both Android and iOS announced major feature additions earlier this year. I'll be shaking my head if Microsoft thinks GDR3 with little more than a chassis bump is enough to compete.
    a5cent, theefman and FinancialP like this.
    06-26-2013 11:27 PM
  3. maverick786us's Avatar
    Microsoft was late to start on Windows Phone with NT kernel compared to iOS & Android development lines. 2-3 years late. I don't think Microsoft can ever catch up as Apple/Google are proceeding at breakneck speed.
    But Microsoft has the infrastructure, the work force and technology to catch up fast
    06-27-2013 01:05 AM
  4. smoledman's Avatar
    But Microsoft has the infrastructure, the work force and technology to catch up fast
    Google & Apple have all of those things to keep ahead.
    06-27-2013 10:18 PM
  5. FinancialP's Avatar
    I've never met a person in real life that cares about phone cores. Literally never. All these people that care about cores only seem to exist online to me. ijs

    You cant compare specs of Android to Windows Phone, thats pointless and makes no sense. A controlled environment vs a open environment. A better comparison is iOS vs Windows Phone.

    We need to talk about ram and memory management. I witness 256mb and 512mb ram iOS devices do amazing things compared to my windows phone.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-27-2013 11:28 PM
  6. WavingReds's Avatar
    I've never met a person in real life that cares about phone cores. Literally never. All these people that care about cores only seem to exist online to me. ijs
    Same here. Only thing I care about my phone these days is the Camera and how it looks.

    You have no idea how many people ask how good the camera & battery & how many app there are on a smart phone until you sell them. Then you will realize that tech specs is >>>>> meaningless <<<<<< to a regular consumer.
    06-28-2013 01:59 AM
  7. maverick786us's Avatar
    I've never met a person in real life that cares about phone cores. Literally never. All these people that care about cores only seem to exist online to me. ijs

    You cant compare specs of Android to Windows Phone, thats pointless and makes no sense. A controlled environment vs a open environment. A better comparison is iOS vs Windows Phone.

    We need to talk about ram and memory management. I witness 256mb and 512mb ram iOS devices do amazing things compared to my windows phone.
    Same here. Only thing I care about my phone these days is the Camera and how it looks.

    You have no idea how many people ask how good the camera & battery & how many app there are on a smart phone until you sell them. Then you will realize that tech specs is >>>>> meaningless <<<<<< to a regular consumer.
    Before IOS 7 iPhone never had true multi-tasking capabilities. I can't comment on WP8s memory management. But it doesn't look good, as i see my Lumia 920 often gets heated up while browsing net using 3G, while using Nokia Drive and while playing games.

    More cores always smoothen multi-tasking, which will put less load on processor, which will result in less heat. Offcourse microsoft has to make WP8 more memory efficient and a perfect mobile OS for multi-tasking.
    06-28-2013 03:39 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    More cores always smoothen multi-tasking, which will put less load on processor, which will result in less heat. Offcourse microsoft has to make WP8 more memory efficient and a perfect mobile OS for multi-tasking.
    First, multiple cores don't always "smoothen" multitasking, particularly not on an OS like WP which is deliberately designed not to multi-task. Second, the CPU load generated by any given app is invariant, no matter how many cores the CPU has. Finally, heat generated by a CPU isn't directly related to core count, but rather to the number of active transistors, clock rate and manufacturing process.

    Some of you imagine core count to be some magical silver bullet that will solve every computing problem you've ever encountered. It's not. It's good for some things, but completely useless for others.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-28-2013 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Spelling
    EchoRedux and xconomicron like this.
    06-28-2013 04:02 AM
  9. dreamwizwp's Avatar
    I think what many fail to realize in terms of resolution is that it's not about if you can see a pixel on 720p vs. 1080p. This hasn't been the problem for a long time now, since iPhone introduced Retina displays. The difference is in how much content you fit on that small screen and this is where 1080p runs circles around 720p.

    When it comes to RAM and CPU - yes, WP8 can run smoothly on dual core and 1GB RAM. However, you can't deny that it would benefit from higher specs in many areas, for example Nokia's new smart camera apps etc. The lack of true multitasking is a big turn off for many users and I don't see why MS still sticks with this. Battery life? Not so sure. I don't see WP8 devices having significantly better battery life over Android. At the least they could allow some level of true multitasking, perhaps like allowing software to run 10-15 minutes on the background before starting to drop network connections.

    The price difference between new flagship WP8 phones vs. Android phones is almost non-existing. Yet the WP8 phones are running on hardware that is ancient in terms of mobile technology. Fine, but shouldn't the price then be set accordingly? Please raise your hand if you would buy a two year old car model for the price of this year's model.

    Windows Phone 8 will have to match Android and preferably exceed it in terms of hardware specs if they wish to get converts from the Android world. Let's face it, if there was a flagship Lumia with Nokia design and software and spec sheet matching Galaxy S4, sales would be much higher than currently.
    maverick786us and Dazzi like this.
    06-28-2013 04:36 AM
  10. AngryNil's Avatar
    The difference is in how much content you fit on that small screen and this is where 1080p runs circles around 720p.
    Sorry, but why in the world would 1080p be necessary to fit content on a 5" screen? It has to be said: 400+ PPI adds absolutely zero functional benefit. It's a nicety, nothing more. What fits on a screen, in this context, is purely a function of software and screen size. Considering the talks of Windows Phone phablets and 3-column home screen, I would say that it is an area that Microsoft seems to be intent on addressing.

    Windows Phone 8 will have to match Android and preferably exceed it in terms of hardware specs if they wish to get converts from the Android world.
    Where'd you pull this out of? WP8 definitely does not have to match Android in hardware specs, it needs to provide and market a meaningfully better experience than a previous Android device that consumers have owned. You should also toss out this concept of a mass market "Android world", just as people should have never thought there was some bulletproof "Windows world". (Referring to the consumer space specifically here.)

    Remember that there are huge numbers of Android garbage being sold, somewhat similar to how the average Windows PC is junk.
    a5cent and xconomicron like this.
    06-28-2013 05:26 AM
  11. NaNoo123's Avatar
    You cant compare android with wp? And why not?
    If i have a game on both devices and it plays better on one compared to the other, why is that a bad comparison?
    If one can take more burst shots etc than the other, why not?
    Yet people seem happy to compare cameras, strange that, or are you not comparing them across android and wp?

    If there is a problem with wanting a quad core device, maybe if its just said as, they want a better cpu and gpu would that help?

    Quality and efficiency of cores matter, but if cores was so irrelevant why didn't wp stick with single cores?
    I thought one of the benefits of wp8 compared to wp7 was the fact it could use multiple cores, and no that never meant just 2.
    Guess 5 years from now it will be fine releasing same spec devices as wp9 doesn't lag on it.

    I think there's a lot to be said for controlling the specs the way MS does, but i think its more important for the minimum spec than top end.
    maverick786us and Dazzi like this.
    06-28-2013 05:39 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    When it comes to RAM and CPU - yes, WP8 can run smoothly on dual core and 1GB RAM. However, you can't deny that it would benefit from higher specs in many areas...
    In that last sentence the term 'higher specs' is too unspecific to really mean anything. If it is intended to mean 'more than two cores', then I can and do deny that there are many areas where they would be noticeably useful..

    That won't change as long as WP's multi-tasking model stays the way it is. Most of the things people imagine those cores would help with are actually handled by the DSP and/or the GPU, leaving the CPU cores completely irrelevant.

    What really would make a difference? Primarily higher per core IPC (even if that means sacrificing two cores to make the remaining two cores more powerful) and much more powerful GPUs. Interestingly, Apple is the only OEM with the freedom to go all out with that strategy, because they aren't forced to market towards ill-informed geeks.
    FinancialP likes this.
    06-28-2013 05:44 AM
  13. NaNoo123's Avatar
    WP8 definitely does not have to match Android in hardware specs, it needs to provide and market a meaningfully better experience than a previous Android device that consumers have owned.
    i would say you need to provide a better experience than the current device they could get, not just previous to what they owned.

    the fact you also mentioned that MS is looking to address the 1080p/phablet market etc, just shows that there is demand for it, although it took them long to realise and do something about it. I'm not saying its easy to do, just actual time frames to market, etc.

    I'm also aware that you was refuting the benefit of 1080p on smaller displays.
    I was just using your reply to prove that there is nothing wrong with wanting 1080 displays.
    But cant at the moment due to current wp8 limitations, not because there's no point in them.
    maverick786us likes this.
    06-28-2013 05:53 AM
  14. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    Yeah. User Experience is king. I mean look at Apple. They don't use Next-Gen specs but their phones work really well and provide a fantastic experience. Android makers use specs as a way to differentiate themselves and that's what caused the specs war. Unfortunately, because WP has manufacturers similar to Android, it means WP has also been told it needs to partake in the Spec Wars Master Race. But I had a better experience with my titan than I did with my Desire Z and Flyer combined and I had good experiences with both.
    a5cent and FinancialP like this.
    06-28-2013 06:04 AM
  15. NaNoo123's Avatar
    In that last sentence the term 'higher specs' is too unspecific to really mean anything. If it is intended to mean 'more than two cores', then I can and do deny that there are many areas where they would be noticeably useful..

    That won't change as long as WP's multi-tasking model stays the way it is. Most of the things people imagine those cores would help with are actually handled by the DSP and/or the GPU, leaving the CPU cores completely irrelevant.

    What really would make a difference? Primarily higher per core IPC (even if that means sacrificing two cores to make the remaining two cores more powerful) and much more powerful GPUs. Interestingly, Apple is the only OEM with the freedom to go all out with that strategy, because they aren't forced to market towards ill-informed geeks.
    or maybe they have that freedom due to the quality of the chips they produce, that includes the gpu.

    is it as simple as saying more cores is better? No. Easily proven by the gs4, the 4 and 8 variety are closely matched and 4 is better in certain scenarios. Although the 8 is really a 4+4.

    But as even you have highlighted better specs can make a difference, even if its not as simple as saying core count. Its just easier for some people to put it that way instead of going into (due to not having that level of knowledge) different gpus, memory, core types, etc.
    maverick786us and Dazzi like this.
    06-28-2013 06:11 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    If there is a problem with wanting a quad core device, maybe if its just said as, they want a better cpu and gpu would that help?
    IMHO, absolutely! There is currently a real danger of OEM's releasing quad core WP8 devices that perform inferiorly compared to all of the dual core WP8 devices currently on the market. That isn't just bad for those that get duped into buying those devices. It's bad for the entire ecosystem, because most developers will target their apps to run well on the poorest performing hardware that WP8 supports. In the end, we all lose, because the masses bought into the "more cores is always better" hype.

    Also, the number of CPU cores has almost no relationship to GPU performance. Unfortunately, GPU performance really is a sore spot for WP8. If we as a community really understood our hardware, that is what we would be complaining about, not the number of cores, but it's barely ever mentioned.

    Quality and efficiency of cores matter, but if cores was so irrelevant why didn't wp stick with single cores?
    Any real answer that goes beyond marketing speak is complicated. You'll just have to believe me when I say that for the types of software we run on smartphones, the usefulness of every core is greatly reduced with every extra core added to the CPU. This is particularly true of WP. For Android this is less true, because the OS itself runs a whole host of threads in the background, which WP does not.

    I thought one of the benefits of wp8 compared to wp7 was the fact it could use multiple cores, and no that never meant just 2.
    You are making a typical mistake. What you mention is not at all a benefit. That is only of value when that extra performance becomes apparent and noticeable to the person using the device. That is not always guaranteed to be the case. In fact, I know a few hardware engineers that are specifically asked to engage in spec-sheet optimization... the act of designing hardware as to improve the spec sheet, while actual performance gains are irrelevant. This is standard practice.

    I think there's a lot to be said for controlling the specs the way MS does, but i think its more important for the minimum spec than top end.
    In general I agree. However, it's worth mentioning how often we point at Android and ridicule their fragmented ecosystem. Every new hardware chassis spec for WP fragments our own ecosystem too. We can't have it both ways.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-28-2013 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Spelling
    06-28-2013 06:30 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    or maybe they have that freedom due to the quality of the chips they produce, that includes the gpu.
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What I was trying to say is that Apple is in the enviable position of not having to market spec-sheets to geeks, and can instead focus on designing hardware that actually performers better as opposed to just looking better on paper. They don't even mention core count at their product launches. Instead, they just tell you: "this device is 135% faster then our last generation smartphone", and that difference is generally noticeable (has been so far at least).

    On the other hand, Samsung tells people: "this is our new octa-core califragilator chip" (a freak of engineering), implying it's twice as fast as a comparable quad-core device, which is complete BS. But it sells.

    But as even you have highlighted better specs can make a difference, even if its not as simple as saying core count. Its just easier for some people to put it that way
    True. I would just rather see the entire consumer base up in arms and calling for better performance in "this" or "that" scenario, instead of everyone playing "arm-chair" engineer and asking for more cores. In peoples minds it may be the same thing, but it really really isn't.

    I would love to see people ignore the technicalities of how hardware is built entirely, and instead focus on benchmarks.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-28-2013 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spelling
    TheArcaneFlame likes this.
    06-28-2013 06:52 AM
  18. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Yea a5cent, pretty much agree with you.

    I do actually understand at a lower level, but trying to articulate at a higher level what the OP was asking for. Although if you ask me about what specs iPhones, different android devices are i wouldn't know.

    Wanting better spec, isn't wrong or worthless.
    WP8 the OS runs fine without lag, but not some games. And the magical optimise that people think solves everything is not always the case.

    Cores have come to mean performance in the mainstream though, so i could understand his point.
    We've gone from the ghz to cores war lol

    WP8 runs well, but the architecture is relatively old in comparison to what is available.

    One of the reasons i don't mind MS control, is the controlling of fragmentation, i also think their iron grip is a bit too tight though.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-28-2013 07:08 AM
  19. NaNoo123's Avatar
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What I was trying to say is that Apple is in the enviable position of not having to market spec-sheets to geeks, and can instead focus on designing hardware that actually performers better as opposed to just looking better on paper. They don't even mention core count .
    actually that was my point lol
    Due to their position they are able to produce a good/balanced chip, which includes the gpu.
    But they don't have to deal with oems etc
    a5cent likes this.
    06-28-2013 07:13 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Wanting better spec, isn't wrong or worthless.
    I get what you're saying. The difference is that you are willing to ignore what is actually being said and translate it into what you think is meant. You've one upped me in that area. I can't do that, and don't intend to either. Sorry. ;-)

    Cores have come to mean performance in the mainstream though, so i could understand his point.
    We've gone from the ghz to cores war lol
    Yeah, no kidding. I think the core wars are even worse though, because MHz and performance were at least somewhat proportionally related, whereas that isn't at all true for core count.

    ...i also think their iron grip is a bit too tight though.
    Really? Many people say that but I don't see it. The only things Microsoft rigorously standardizes on are the SoC, display resolutions and RAM. I think if you're going to lessen your grip anymore you might as well not do it at all, no?

    My complaint here would relate only to timing. If Microsoft intends to design a chassis spec around a Qualcomm 600 SoC, then IMHO they should be ready with that when that SoC launches. They need to get that hardware out when it's new, or not do it at all. IMHO adding fragmentation to the ecosystem isn't worth it for hardware that is already six months old.
    06-28-2013 07:36 AM
  21. SnailUK's Avatar
    One of the reasons i don't mind MS control, is the controlling of fragmentation, i also think their iron grip is a bit too tight though.
    Its difficult though. WP8 has a tiny market share, so its hard enough to get developers to write an app for WP8. We are already seeing developers being lazy, and not testing on 512mb devices.

    Start adding more cores, and more ram, and developers will just keep focusing on the top end, and WP8 will become like Android, where the experience is fantastic on the brand new top end devices, but 6 months down the line, your phone is completely outdated, and all the latest apps require more power.
    06-28-2013 08:27 AM
  22. SnailUK's Avatar
    My complaint here would relate only to timing. If Microsoft intends to design a chassis spec around a Qualcomm 600 SoC, then IMHO they should be ready with that when that SoC launches.
    But they'll be stuck in that same old situation. There are multiple manufacturers all fighting for the latest chipset, most will end up selling magnitudes more handsets than (for instance) Nokia, therefore Microsoft/Nokia will get little or no early support, they'll get worse prices, etc etc.
    06-28-2013 08:32 AM
  23. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Not ignore what is being said, but try to understand what someone is saying.
    People seem quick to dismiss what others say, even though i suspect they know what is meant.

    Not all cores are made equal and therefore nether the frequency. But yes it would have been correct to say wanting a better soc.

    Isn't that the point though? By the time it comes to market its not that current and not going to be updated for a while.
    If your going to maintain that kind of control then bring it to market in a timely manner.
    Otherwise say these are the minimum requirements you must meet and give them more control of what they can produce.
    I don't think it would fragment the ecosystem that much, probably less than the memory disparity we currently have.

    It just means that what the OP was talking about would be possible.
    maverick786us likes this.
    06-28-2013 08:38 AM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    But they'll be stuck in that same old situation. There are multiple manufacturers all fighting for the latest chipset, most will end up selling magnitudes more handsets than (for instance) Nokia, therefore Microsoft/Nokia will get little or no early support, they'll get worse prices, etc etc.
    Are you saying that the delay is intentional, because WP OEM's couldn't get those high-end parts that early on? I can't really speak to that, because I know nothing about it. I would assume that if HTC can do it (with their HTC One), then why couldn't Nokia?

    IMHO if WP was out with the cutting edge hardware when it launched, it would be easier for WP to stick with that platform for at least a year (in the interest of low fragmentation), without people feeling WP is getting left behind. That is what I think would be different about the situation.
    06-28-2013 08:45 AM
  25. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Its difficult though. WP8 has a tiny market share, so its hard enough to get developers to write an app for WP8. We are already seeing developers being lazy, and not testing on 512mb devices.

    Start adding more cores, and more ram, and developers will just keep focusing on the top end, and WP8 will become like Android, where the experience is fantastic on the brand new top end devices, but 6 months down the line, your phone is completely outdated, and all the latest apps require more power.
    edited my reply as better phrased above me by a5cent.
    06-28-2013 08:50 AM
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