07-10-2013 11:51 AM
74 123
tools
  1. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Have to admit, was just wondering if i was being slightly unfair to the "8" core gs4. (although i do think it was valid for the point)
    I've not looked at what frequency both models are running at, battery life etc.
    The 4 main cores may actually be just as good or a better marchitecture, but maybe Samsung throttled it to make both models even, as they are supposed to be gs4's, not gs4 and gs4s.

    Do they even market it as 8 core?
    What their trying to do isn't a bad idea in of itself, main cores and companion type cores.

    Not meaning to derail thread, but i stopped following actual implementation after days of cortex a9 and if neon instruction set way being developed for etc.
    Now a days i just have passing interest in what phones are actually using, until im interested in upgrading, until then i just follow the marchitecture, theory etc.
    06-28-2013 12:05 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    I don't think it would fragment the ecosystem that much, probably less than the memory disparity we currently have.
    The way I see it, fragmentation is only an issue if it requires developers to consider differences in hardware and/or software configurations, in order to get their apps to behave as intended. The WP RAM disparity doesn't do that. In other words, those two RAM configurations don't make it any more difficult for developers to create their apps, nor will it cause stability or performance issues on any device. I'm not saying you can't call this fragmentation, but if you do, then it's the type of fragmentation that lacks negative consequences.

    Yes, some consumers will not be able to run all apps, but in exchange for that they got their devices at a cheaper price. Those are good options to have. Anyway, those RAM disparities exist only as a form of market segmentation, and I think MS could have chosen worse ways of achieving that.

    However, adding new SoCs to the mix, particularly if they have very different performance characteristics compared to the devices already in circulation, well, that can significantly complicate app development. For your average single-threaded calendar app it's completely irrelevant of course (as are all other hardware characteristics), but for apps that benefit from taking hardware to its limits, such variations add a lot of cost to app development and testing (= less software of that type, apps that perform poorly, incompatibilitites). That is what I consider an example of fragmentation with negative consequences, and I do think that is far worse than the two RAM configurations we must deal with.

    Its difficult though. WP8 has a tiny market share, so its hard enough to get developers to write an app for WP8. We are already seeing developers being lazy, and not testing on 512mb devices.

    Start adding more cores, and more ram, and developers will just keep focusing on the top end, and WP8 will become like Android, where the experience is fantastic on the brand new top end devices, but 6 months down the line, your phone is completely outdated, and all the latest apps require more power.
    Yeah. I think so too.

    However, in general, developers ask how they must build their app to be a viable choice for as many people as possible. More often then not, that means targeting the current mid- to low-end, not specifically the high-end.

    Regarding WP's "high-end" games, all we're getting is second hand "stuff". Such ports are always far less efficient than if they were developed specifically for WP. The 512MB issue isn't because developers are lazy, but because they are on extreme deadlines to get their ports finished. Basically, if the port doesn't crash, then the port is considered finished. If the app does really well in sales, then they may get some time to clean up and get it running more optimally on WP, but that isn't always the case... those are the apps that never make it to 512 MB devices. :-(
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-28-2013 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Spelling
    06-28-2013 12:40 PM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    Not ignore what is being said, but try to understand what someone is saying.
    People seem quick to dismiss what others say, even though i suspect they know what is meant.
    Hey, no need to pull your punches.

    Microelectronics and IC engineering are exact sciences. So, if we're going to use related terms, I think it's fair to expect a certain amount of "exactness" to go with it. I think we do the community a disservice if we just ignore false usages and misunderstandings. After all, aren't we here to exchange what we know, and to learn more about our common interest?

    I think the OP raised a good question and I think his question has been answered. He's probably not a fan, but I think the quality of the answer he got is now better, thanks to fleshing out some of the gritty details.
    maverick786us likes this.
    06-28-2013 02:14 PM
  4. dreamwizwp's Avatar
    Sorry, but why in the world would 1080p be necessary to fit content on a 5" screen? It has to be said: 400+ PPI adds absolutely zero functional benefit. It's a nicety, nothing more. What fits on a screen, in this context, is purely a function of software and screen size. Considering the talks of Windows Phone phablets and 3-column home screen, I would say that it is an area that Microsoft seems to be intent on addressing.

    Where'd you pull this out of? WP8 definitely does not have to match Android in hardware specs, it needs to provide and market a meaningfully better experience than a previous Android device that consumers have owned. You should also toss out this concept of a mass market "Android world", just as people should have never thought there was some bulletproof "Windows world". (Referring to the consumer space specifically here.)

    Remember that there are huge numbers of Android garbage being sold, somewhat similar to how the average Windows PC is junk.
    This of course depends on the user and what the user values. And, necessary or not or sensible or not, this is important for Nokia. Why? Because a lot of consumers, especially in the high-end market, want to buy the latest and greatest because they consider it to be future proof. If you want sales, you need to cater to demand. I know lots of people from the tech world who refuse to even consider Windows Phone at the moment because of the older hardware that costs the same as Android with the latest hardware. I think Apple can afford it thanks to their strong brand to not fight the "spec war" but at the moment, WP OEM's really can't afford it.

    Personally, I'm using iPhone 4S, hardly a spec monster anymore and I've been on the market for a new phone. After looking at both, Lumia 920 and HTC One, I could see some benefits from having the 1080P screen and it somewhat killed my interest in 920. I'm likely to hold on a few months and see if Nokia can get the specs up to date because I really like Nokia's design language and built quality over the HTC. Given that I can get over the limitations in multi-tasking that originally steered me off the 920 in the winter...
    06-28-2013 05:45 PM
  5. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Hey, no need to pull your punches.

    Microelectronics and IC engineering are exact sciences. So, if we're going to use related terms, I think it's fair to expect a certain amount of "exactness" to go with it. I think we do the community a disservice if we just ignore false usages and misunderstandings. After all, aren't we here to exchange what we know, and to learn more about our common interest?

    I think the OP raised a good question and I think his question has been answered. He's probably not a fan, but I think the quality of the answer he got is now better, thanks to fleshing out some of the gritty details.
    lol, it was a general statement and not meant at you 😃
    I do agree though that getting into a reasonable discussion and educating people are a good thing, regardless if people agree or not.
    At least your responses wasn't just, not needed Wp8 doesn't lag. That's the sort of thing i find dismissive, and a bit condescending. If people think its all about amount of cores, or don't know gpus play a part then explain to them.
    Or at least try to understand what they actually mean, good or bad.
    Considering the topic, its been fun.
    a5cent and tissotti like this.
    06-28-2013 06:20 PM
  6. AngryNil's Avatar
    i would say you need to provide a better experience than the current device they could get, not just previous to what they owned.
    I think you're leaning a little too much to the side of assuming people vigorously cross-check specs and capabilities before a purchase. You'll probably find that this is no longer the case with the smartphone industry, which has gone mass market with buyers easily manipulated by marketing and sales representatives. While you are right to a certain extent – Windows Phone obviously can't just slightly edge out a 2011 Android device – I can see any platform that wholly overcomes less-than-stellar Android experiences gaining some traction. I'm not sure that people love Android much more than people love Windows (not much).

    I was just using your reply to prove that there is nothing wrong with wanting 1080 displays.
    Sure, there's nothing wrong about wanting the best. But my current opinion is that is the only legitimate reason to specifically request 1080p on non-phablets (unless you find text to be not sharp enough to read at 300 PPI, which is very doubtful). What people ultimately want when they ask for more visible content is either a bigger screen or a software overhaul (more efficient design, or making everything smaller).
    a5cent likes this.
    06-29-2013 04:19 AM
  7. Bicpug's Avatar
    I'm not sure 1080p is worth it on a phone, it's just a lot more pixels to move in games for a minor increase in text sharpness. It's pointless to just add res for the sake of it so you can boast that text 1mm high is readable with a magnifying glass.
    06-29-2013 04:41 AM
  8. NaNoo123's Avatar
    I did say phablets in regards to 1080 displays, and your correct in that its more to push in games, which is why it would be best with a better gpu.

    Below phablet size, I'm meh about, although it is the direction its going, and i don't see it stopping.

    Do people check specs?
    My response to that is, they generally read reviews, or get advice from someone. I doubt must people just go in a shop and just pick a random phone nowadays.
    So it's the reviewers and people giving advice that would comment on specs, which does influence the buying public.
    Regardless of its perceived good or bad points.
    06-29-2013 06:08 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm not sure 1080p is worth it on a phone, it's just a lot more pixels to move in games for a minor increase in text sharpness
    A few months back I spent some time at a shop comparing high quality 5" 1080p and 720p displays. If I squint and really focus I can tell a difference. However, the difference is very subtle and even that subtle difference is only noticeable at very close viewing distances. There is no way I'd notice any benefit during normal/everyday use.

    ... and your correct in that its more to push in games, which is why it would be best with a better gpu.
    IMHO that argument is a strange one, because after all, any device profits from a better GPU, right? There is no law that states that the exact same GPU you'd want to see in your 1080p smartphone, can't also be built into a 720p smartphone. Given that situation, the 720p device will always enjoy a performance advantage over the 1080p device (in GPU intensive tasks).

    Of course, I'm only talking about devices with displays <= 5". Generally, the above statement is only valid when comparing devices of similar size.

    If mass market gadget sites like the verge started pushing standardized framerate tests, included them in every review, and proclaimed them to be a measure of "smoothness", I suspect we'd see the demand for 1080p displays drop off quickly.
    06-30-2013 10:29 AM
  10. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Yes most devices may see a profit, but i was responding to the point made that the higher res means it would be slower. Yes it may be with the current set up.
    06-30-2013 07:57 PM
  11. maverick786us's Avatar
    I do agree that 1080P will be of no use for 4.5 inch screen. However when nokia release something similar to EOS having 5.2 inch or bigger screen, 1080P will be a sweet spot. For Lumia 1020 we do need the firepower of fastest quad core maybe Snapdragon 800 or whatever or image processing of 41MP camera. I don't know how 808 pureview works with a slow processor.

    Lumia 1020 is a unique device of its own with main stress on camera. If Nokia releases a successor of Lumia 920, it should have a 5.2 inch screen with 21MP camera containing all the same features of Lumia 920. 1080P screen with Quad core will perfectly fit with that device
    07-02-2013 01:13 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    For Lumia 1020 we do need the firepower of fastest quad core maybe Snapdragon 800 or whatever or image processing of 41MP camera. I don't know how 808 pureview works with a slow processor.
    Could you imagine that there might be a better way for the Lumia 1020 to do image processing than by "brute-forcing it" with the "firepower of the fastest quad core CPU". If you think that is the only way a Lumia 1020 could get the job done, are you then suggesting that WP is that much more inefficient than Symbian, which didn't require such a CPU for the job?

    The reason it worked on the 808 is because the CPU and the number of cores were completely irrelevant. Nokia used a separate image processing chip for that task.

    How would you feel about a jockey wanting a better animal for his races, and then calling for a better, faster and stronger turtle to get that job done? Well, that is what your post sounds like to me (no offence intended, after all, computing is a lot more complicated than jockeying) In terms of image processing, our beloved quad-core Krait 400 CPU (in the Snapdragon 800 SoC) is a turtle!

    Instead, you should be asking for a better DSP and a better GPU (horses for image processing). Not only would they get the image processing job done much faster, but also use a lot less power while doing so. Look up the term "stream-processing" for an introductory explanation as to why the CPU isn't the right tool for any image processing job.

    My point is that the fastest quad-core CPU won't help us with image processing, because smartphones usually use other computational units for that job (just like Nokia's lens apps are primarily GPU based).

    The good new is that even the Snapdragon 600 has a great GPU (much better than what we currently have). The GPU in the Snapdragon 800 is phenomenal, but we won't see that in average sized WP smartphones. If we ever see it in a WP device at all, it will be in large WP phablets or tablets.
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-02-2013 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Spelling
    broar94, Mach_E and xconomicron like this.
    07-02-2013 08:21 AM
  13. EchoRedux's Avatar
    I like how people have concerns over the CPU despite the 808 having a 1.3 GHz single core processor. I also like when people say quad core is mandatory for 1080p but that's a different story.
    07-02-2013 11:36 AM
  14. maverick786us's Avatar
    Could you imagine that there might be a better way for the Lumia 1020 to do image processing than by "brute-forcing it" with the "firepower of the fastest quad core CPU". If you think that is the only way a Lumia 1020 could get the job done, are you then suggesting that WP is that much more inefficient than Symbian, which didn't require such a CPU for the job?

    The reason it worked on the 808 is because the CPU and the number of cores were completely irrelevant. Nokia used a separate image processing chip for that task.

    How would you feel about a jockey wanting a better animal for his races, and then calling for a better, faster and stronger turtle to get that job done? Well, that is what your post sounds like to me (no offence intended, after all, computing is a lot more complicated than jockeying) In terms of image processing, our beloved quad-core Krait 400 CPU (in the Snapdragon 800 SoC) is a turtle!

    Instead, you should be asking for a better DSP and a better GPU (horses for image processing). Not only would they get the image processing job done much faster, but also use a lot less power while doing so. Look up the term "stream-processing" for an introductory explanation as to why the CPU isn't the right tool for any image processing job.

    My point is that the fastest quad-core CPU won't help us with image processing, because smartphones usually use other computational units for that job (just like Nokia's lens apps are primarily GPU based).

    The good new is that even the Snapdragon 600 has a great GPU (much better than what we currently have). The GPU in the Snapdragon 800 is phenomenal, but we won't see that in average sized WP smartphones. If we ever see it in a WP device at all, it will be in large WP phablets or tablets.
    Yes a good GPU is needed for that image processing, but the CPU has to be fast enough so that it doesn't create a CPU - GPU bottleneck
    tissotti likes this.
    07-03-2013 01:11 AM
  15. tissotti's Avatar
    I'm personally still a bit baffled why peope would be against example Qualcomm 800 if it doesn't affect battery life. Symbian's death was much to do with underpowered devices, the low RAM warning is a legend itself that was norm for years. 808 had the slowest browser of that gen and UI speed was WAY behind Android, WP or iOS. Saying as your fellow old time Nokia fan with 808PV.

    We are fans of WP or Nokia here, but you as a customer and especially as a fan should always demand for the best. The good enough thinking wont cut it and it should be the fans asking for better as the general popilation is still figuring out there's something else than Android and iOS out there.
    07-03-2013 08:44 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm personally still a bit baffled why peope would be against example Qualcomm 800 if it doesn't affect battery life.
    I'm not against the Snapdragon 800 per se. I'm not really against anything here. I'm just trying to explain that the Krait 400 cores will be useless in those areas where the OP expects them to help.

    IF there are no battery life issues, I have no problem with the Snapdragon 800, but I expect there will be. Firstly, Qualcomm markets the Snapdragon 800 primarily as a tablet SoC. It's not really intended for Smartphones. Secondly, that Samsung had to add four lower-end cores to their Exynos 5 Octa, on which most of the day to day processing is actually done, also suggests we can't get reasonable battery life from four A15 class cores in a smartphone sized package. If Krait 400 is at all similar to the standard A15 cores, then they too will require 6 times as much power to offer 5 times the performance, meaning they are less efficient than their smaller siblings... poorer efficiency is the bane of good for battery.

    However, I agree that the final word is still out on the issue.
    07-03-2013 09:24 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    Yes a good GPU is needed for that image processing, but the CPU has to be fast enough so that it doesn't create a CPU - GPU bottleneck
    You will have to back that up. I suspect you are inventing some rational to justify something you just want. If that's true, it's far better to just admit that you just want the best for the sake of having the best. I don't know every GPU intensive app in existence, but I don't know of a single one on any platform that is CPU bound on any device. All are inherently GPU bound.

    Image processing that is done on the GPU, which is what we are discussing here, is never CPU bound.
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-03-2013 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Last scentence
    07-03-2013 09:27 AM
  18. maverick786us's Avatar
    You will have to back that up. I suspect you are inventing some rational to justify something you just want. If that's true, it's far better to just admit that you just want the best for the sake of having the best. I don't know every GPU intensive app in existence, but I don't know of a single one on any platform that is CPU bound on any device. All are inherently GPU bound.

    Image processing that is done on the GPU, which is what we are discussing here, is never CPU bound.
    You do not understand the concept of CPU / GPU bottle neck. In order to run a fast GPU, the CPU has to be fast enough so that it can provide instructions to the GPU
    07-04-2013 05:38 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    You do not understand the concept of CPU / GPU bottle neck. In order to run a fast GPU, the CPU has to be fast enough so that it can provide instructions to the GPU
    Wrong. You are the one that does not understand.

    We are talking about GPU based image processing, and in that use case we will never encounter a CPU bottleneck. Why? Because after handing over the image that is to be processed to the GPU, there is nothing left for the CPU to do. The CPU could instantly proceed to handing off the next image, while the GPU still has millions of pixels to process. There can be no CPU bottleneck in this scenario.

    I won't go into 3D games because that's a lot more complicated, but there too, at least on modern smartphones, we are nowhere close to experiencing CPU bottlenecks (mainly due to the workload generated by ever higher resolution displays increasing faster than GPU performance).

    It seems you think that CPU and GPU work in unison, with the CPU constantly streaming data to the GPU and therefore having to 'keep up'. That is not at all how this works.
    xconomicron likes this.
    07-04-2013 10:22 AM
  20. maverick786us's Avatar
    Wrong. You are the one that does not understand.

    We are talking about GPU based image processing, and in that use case we will never encounter a CPU bottleneck. Why? Because after handing over the image that is to be processed to the GPU, there is nothing left for the CPU to do. The CPU could instantly proceed to handing off the next image, while the GPU still has millions of pixels to process. There can be no CPU bottleneck in this scenario.

    I won't go into 3D games because that's a lot more complicated, but there too, at least on modern smartphones, we are nowhere close to experiencing CPU bottlenecks (mainly due to the workload generated by ever higher resolution displays increasing faster than GPU performance).

    It seems you think that CPU and GPU work in unison, with the CPU constantly streaming data to the GPU and therefore having to 'keep up'. That is not at all how this works.
    In gaming it works in union. The CPU has to be fast enough to completely stretch the legs of GPU. Just like the way you can't expect GTX Titan or 780 to run upto its full potential in an old CPU like Core 2 Duo. You need a fast quad core like 3770K or 4770K.

    Similarly in this case I am not sure if a slow CPU might create a bottleneck for the GPU
    07-09-2013 03:41 AM
  21. EchoRedux's Avatar
    I don't think you'll see added performance playing games with a i7 3770K over a i5 3570K with same RAM and graphics card at any resolution.
    07-09-2013 11:51 AM
  22. Brad Spry's Avatar
    We put men on the Moon with 64K of memory and a 0.043MHz processor.
    Interview with Allan Klumpp
    a5cent likes this.
    07-09-2013 07:20 PM
  23. maverick786us's Avatar
    I don't think you'll see added performance playing games with a i7 3770K over a i5 3570K with same RAM and graphics card at any resolution.
    Yes we wouldn't because both are quad core CPUs with specs almost similar. 3770K offers HP over 3570K which hardly makes any difference in gaming. However if you compare any of these CPUs with a Core i3, it will create a bottleneck if you are using a GTX titan or GTC 780 in gaming.

    The same principle might be applied with smartphones, If they have a good GPU, they need a good CPU to provide that horsepower
    07-09-2013 11:12 PM
  24. EchoRedux's Avatar
    I haven't checked prices, but if I had to guess, I'd put both of those graphics cards in a price range above what a Lumia 920 costs off contract. Do you think there is a is a GPU/CPU bottleneck between the latest Adreno and say, the single core snapdragon S2 on my Focus S? There's a bottleneck, but I doubt it would be in the GPU or CPU.
    07-10-2013 11:51 AM
74 123

Similar Threads

  1. Has anyone found an app to synch Exchange notes?
    By Rob41664 in forum Applications
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-27-2013, 07:57 AM
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-14-2013, 12:57 PM
  3. It is 24 to 1... For the competition.
    By Coolknight1968 in forum Phone Wars
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-01-2012, 01:13 AM
  4. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-07-2011, 10:37 PM
  5. Sent an email to Verizon about the trophy...
    By Grubish360 in forum HTC Trophy
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-14-2011, 09:45 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD