Lumia 1020 is not a worthy upgrade

[Huime]

Err what? There is a ton of 808 low-light pictures on flickr and everywhere around that look fantastic, way better than any official Nokia samples from 1020...

here is just one example for you and since you say you are not lazy freely go and find other examples

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201305052343DrX30k.jpg

can you show me 1020 image that has even close quality? Up to this day, I haven't found any.



DSLRs are already expensive especially those professional so bigger price is not the problem for them, and if BSI were so good nobody would mess with another lens instead of having better sensor at all conditions.

You say BSI is great for phones, all phones I have seen with BSI sensor have unnatural colors, oversharpening and black spots/lines which make picture imperfect. Including 1020.




Yeah, Hasselblad is known for cutting the costs in their cameras...



it's not me, it's arguments...sorry if you can't live with them

You know, empirical based engineering is very bad.

 

[fatclue_98]

You have actually no idea what you are talking about and should just stop posting "information". BSI is superior to FSI because the wiring is behind the photocathode layer, allowing more light onto the sensor, hence better low-light performance. Everyone knows that and it's common knowledge. It's one of the reasons why the 808 didn't do as well in low-light.

When it comes to camera phones and point-n-shoots, BSI is always the preferred (albeit more expensive) solution. With DSLR, it's less important because the sensor is already massive (by comparison) and you can use low f-stop lens (F/1.2, f/1.4, etc) to compensate. Mobiles and PNS don't have that luxury, hence why BSI is such a big deal. It's also super expensive to make a BSI DSLR-sized sensor.

FSI makes no sense from an engineering perspective. It's just cheaper.

For the lazy: Back-illuminated sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sony Global - Technology - "Exmor R"
FAQ: What


Dude, just stop...you're killing me

English Dammit! This is a family-friendly forum!

 

[Cod3rror]

I agree, 1020 turned out to be a big disappointment. It looked so good on paper, 41MP, OIS, BSI, 6 lenses, etc... I would've seriously considered it, despite Windows Phone 8, but reality turned out that 808 blasts it in quality. I was disappointed when I found out it had a smaller sensor and knew it would not live up to the hype.

Ever since Nokia switched to WP, their camera quality has been garbage. Just very unpleasant images, grainy, noisy, very rough textured, strange fuzzy edges, colours all over the place, over-processing. It's like they forgot everything. The algorithms they had on Symbian were much, much more impressive.

Show me a single 1020 sample that looks like this...

http://storage0.dms.go4it.ro/media/2/84/2012/9576463/3/6944338282-df901b57b6.jpg

The above image is a 808 sample from when it was announced, look how smooth and soft that image looks, very detailed, yet completely smooth with no grain, no noise.

Here's another, lower light, yet the same perfectly smooth, noise free image quality.

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201307102047vwIh1r.jpg

More,

http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Nokia-pureview-808-review-5.jpg?dur=1007

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201307060749j0PV2J.jpg

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201307051703rv1Gl2.jpg




I don't know what Nokia was thinking with 1020. Here's a 5MP sample...

http://www.nokiapoweruser.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/nokia-lumia-1020-pro-17.jpg

It looks totally average, with artifacts, noise, grain and overall very artificial compared to 808. The beauty of 808 was that at 5MP, you could go 100% zoom and the image looked incredibly smooth. 1020's 5MP is like any other phone's.

Here's an image of New York from 1020,
All sizes | Untitled | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

That's sweet... now look at 808's Dubai,
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/81189830.jpg

At 100% zoom it looks much nicer and more pleasant and less processed than 1020.



Bottomline, 808 is better, much better, 1020 is just an improved 920, in 1020's case, 41MP IS a gimmick. And since Nokia is asking so much for 1020, it's absolutely not worth it. It would've gladly taken a few more mm of thickness but 808 sized sensor, maybe even bigger.

 

[MacDaMachine]

Cod3rror, you should wait for side by side camera comparisons instead of going off sample photos.

 

[JustToClarify]

Ever since Nokia switched to WP, their camera quality has been garbage. Just very unpleasant images, grainy, noisy, very rough textured, strange fuzzy edges, colours all over the place, over-processing. It's like they forgot everything. The algorithms they had on Symbian were much, much more impressive.

I don't think that problem is OS related, it's just that these new BSI sensors are made for general yoof population who like punchy colors and don't care for some more "serious" things like noise artefacts color fidelity etc.

Cod3rror, you should wait for side by side camera comparisons instead of going off sample photos.

you don't need side by side if difference is this big now, there is no freakin' way they can improve things in next month or two

 

[Cod3rror]

Cod3rror, you should wait for side by side camera comparisons instead of going off sample photos.

As JustToClarify just clarified, there is no reason to wait, 808's samples were immediately super impressive, 1020's are not. The comparison reviews will be fun though, when 808 crashes 1020.

 

[Michael Spencer]

I agree, 1020 turned out to be a big disappointment. It looked so good on paper, 41MP, OIS, BSI, 6 lenses, etc... I would've seriously considered it, despite Windows Phone 8, but reality turned out that 808 blasts it in quality. I was disappointed when I found out it had a smaller sensor and knew it would not live up to the hype.

Ever since Nokia switched to WP, their camera quality has been garbage. Just very unpleasant images, grainy, noisy, very rough textured, strange fuzzy edges, colours all over the place, over-processing. It's like they forgot everything. The algorithms they had on Symbian were much, much more impressive.

Show me a single 1020 sample that looks like this...

http://storage0.dms.go4it.ro/media/2/84/2012/9576463/3/6944338282-df901b57b6.jpg

The above image is a 808 sample from when it was announced, look how smooth and soft that image looks, very detailed, yet completely smooth with no grain, no noise.

Here's another, lower light, yet the same perfectly smooth, noise free image quality.

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201307102047vwIh1r.jpg

More,

http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Nokia-pureview-808-review-5.jpg?dur=1007

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201307060749j0PV2J.jpg

http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201307051703rv1Gl2.jpg




I don't know what Nokia was thinking with 1020. Here's a 5MP sample...

http://www.nokiapoweruser.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/nokia-lumia-1020-pro-17.jpg

It looks totally average, with artifacts, noise, grain and overall very artificial compared to 808. The beauty of 808 was that at 5MP, you could go 100% zoom and the image looked incredibly smooth. 1020's 5MP is like any other phone's.

Here's an image of New York from 1020,
All sizes | Untitled | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

That's sweet... now look at 808's Dubai,
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/81189830.jpg

At 100% zoom it looks much nicer and more pleasant and less processed than 1020.



Bottomline, 808 is better, much better, 1020 is just an improved 920, in 1020's case, 41MP IS a gimmick. And since Nokia is asking so much for 1020, it's absolutely not worth it. It would've gladly taken a few more mm of thickness but 808 sized sensor, maybe even bigger.

Scaremongering much haha? :winktongue:

Joke aside - with Lumia 1020 there is nothing yet more than prototype sample - until the retail device ships this is all speculation. Nokia 808 is great in hands of people who knows what they're doing, steady hands, good lighting technique, etc. And of course, the 808 could look better - the people had a year to take those photos - in optimum setting. But 808 is a niche product. Maybe Nokia's bet of putting in OIS will pay off for the masses. I could bet that OIS makes 41MP more useable for more people - but I could very well be wrong. The wait until 26th July seems too long.

 

[vlad0]

If you are using anything but an 808, its worth the upgrade for sure..

If you are content with Symbian, such as myself, and you are already using an 808... I really don't see a good enough reason to upgrade. The video recording and the faster shooter speeds have my attention, and I really want to test them, but.. I am not sure if its enough to sign a new contract or spend 600 bukcs on a new toy.

 

[JustToClarify]

I could bet that OIS makes 41MP more useable for more people - but I could very well be wrong.

you are not wrong, auto mode shooters will find 1020 better device

but I think that Nokia underestimates the number of camera enthusiasts that would rather have 808-like sensor and optics in their phone...I might be wrong though, and with the proper marketing(which 808 had not at all) you can sell a **** today

 

[goldenpipes]

I know what you mean I have 2 upgrades on my account and I was just going to get 2 L920's one for me one for the wife, but then i was like hmm these 1020's are sweet.

Lack of SD card irks me to no end.

If i could only get a L925 on AT&T... That OLED and ClearBlack.... I dont really like the screen on the L920... Blacks are kinda gray IMO... I guess i am just used to Samsung Focus and Focus S screens.... AMOLED!

/rant

 

[exsanguine]

I think you have all missed the point of the 1020.

It is not meant for us Nokia die-hards. It is meant to lure away more ImaDrone users.
I see the 1020 as a lateral release to the 92x series. The more reasons you give Imadrone users to move away from their current devices the better chance you have of snagging them for good once they realize how crappy ios and droid are. Then they realize just how superior Nokia phones are regardless of OS.

 

[Huime]

I think you have all missed the point of the 1020.

It is not meant for us Nokia die-hards. It is meant to lure away more ImaDrone users.
I see the 1020 as a lateral release to the 92x series. The more reasons you give Imadrone users to move away from their current devices the better chance you have of snagging them for good once they realize how crappy ios and droid are. Then they realize just how superior Nokia phones are regardless of OS.

Their strategy had been pretty clear. 9series as the flagship will receive 2 facelift. And 10series will be the current 9mo old soon to be retired flagship + beastly camera. It is also possible that based on the 9series spec, 10series will be expended with special models like phablet and such.

 

[techknight]

The point is not which device has better image quality. Both the 808 and 1020 are miles better than any other smartphone in that area. Regardless of sensor size or BSI, the 1020 is going to be a damn good camera. The real point is you now have a device that incorporates the best of the "Pureview" tech, stage 1 and stage 2, in one sensor. On a platform, WP8, that delivers a modern smartphone experience with a promising future. Its the total package. The debate on the 808 vs 1020 image quality will be slugged out all over the internet soon enough.

 

[JustToClarify]

it is going to be a damn good camera after a couple of updates, but not now

PureView Stage 1 doesn't mean only huge resolution sensor, it also means properly implemented oversampling, which is not the case for 1020(yet)

the Nokia management ordered their engineers to put 41 MP camera in a 10 mm thick body whatever the compromise, and compromises often don't yield quality

 

[techknight]

it is going to be a damn good camera after a couple of updates, but not now

PureView Stage 1 doesn't mean only huge resolution sensor, it also means properly implemented oversampling, which is not the case for 1020(yet)

the Nokia management ordered their engineers to put 41 MP camera in a 10 mm thick body whatever the compromise, and compromises often don't yield quality

Seriously? No offense, but you're again way off base here. The algorithms have been completely re-worked and are superior to the Stage 1. Both Juha Alakarhu and Kristina Bjorknas, the two primary designers, have stated this many times.



Maybe you should read the white paper: http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

 

[JustToClarify]

heh you should take into account that they are trying to sell their product...of course algorithms are reworked, since 1020 doesn't have the mighty Broadcom DSP to lean on...

get one full res picture from 1020 and than just resize it on your PC to 5 MP and compare it with the oversampled one from 1020

then do the same with 808

 

[Cod3rror]

Here are the samples from the retail 1020, and as expected they look terrible, in fact, I'm surprised, they actually look horrible.

Look what showed up at work this morning! : windowsphone

 

[TexasLabRat]

Here are the samples from the retail 1020, and as expected they look terrible, in fact, I'm surprised, they actually look horrible.

Look what showed up at work this morning! : windowsphone

Granted..they look pretty noisy when zoomed in..but also look at the file size. ~8MB for a 33Mpix file (taking the first picture of the mailbox as an example) sure seems like a jpeg overcompression issue more than a sensor issue to me. I would expect a "fine quality" output of that Mpix level to be around 30MB if looking at apples-to-apples of what DSLR's give you...which would be what you'd want where IQ was something you cared about beyond a snapshot destined for facebook. So either flicker has down-sampled the photo or the default auto-shoot jpeg settings are set to be way too lossy...in either case it's not indicative of the quality of the camera itself.

 

[maj71303]

All this talk about the cameras is good, the phone itself registers as a lateral or side upgrade. I can't see myself buying this since it's a 920 with a better camera. The 2GB ram is just to help the camera process photo shots IMO. $299.99 upgrade or $659.99 outright for a lateral upgrade just isn't going to happen in my book. MS is a disappointment because of their slow nature to upgrade WP8 so that it can run on better hardware. You telling me that they can't get it together to even code for a higher version of the S4 they are using. Not even a S4 plus or S4 pro.....same processor family as they use now. I'm not asking for a leap to the Snap 200, 400, 600, 800 family trees just a leap in the family you use now. MS needs more than just a reorganization, they look incompetent Mobile wise in their decisions.

I see clearly why some of the OEM's are hesitant to offer anything WP8 they can't even throw them a bone and updates take too much time. How can I keep recommending WP8 to people when it is clear the mobile division is like last on the list of priorities to MS. I know, I know the OS doesn't need high specs but is the higher S4 processors higher spec.....really. The higher spec hardware offers a great deal more than just performance but power saving features and efficiency as well. If they want to offer more advanced OS features they are going to need the better hardware as well. Sorry but people are looking at specs more now as longevity of using the phone.

I'm not raining on the guys that like the 1020 but really this is a lateral move and not an upgrade. Add some eye popping features and make it slim, but internals are dawn near identical to the last couple releases. Who does that remind you of?

 

[Cod3rror]

Pretty much all Lumia cameras exhibit the same traits. Grain, noise, over-pressing, oil-painting.

http://i.picpar.com/cks.jpg