11-05-2013 06:02 PM
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  1. rmmoore80's Avatar
    What OS version / build version of WP8 is this running by the way?
    07-21-2013 08:02 PM
  2. nano321's Avatar
    Opened up pavvento's photos on 23 inch monitor.

    BLOODY ASTONISHING.

    What you guys might have missed crucial: 5MP and 38MP shots are meant for VERY different purposes. And Nokia's engineers let you know that!

    Basically - it seems Nokia is leaving 38mp with minimal amount of sharpening. There is very little grain.This is pretty much equivalent of RAW for photo pros without having to fix the lens correction.

    The 5MP are much sharper. These are meant to be shared - so they're giving it the photogenic treatment. And they look MUCH better to an average Joe's eyes.

    The grain / noise has been blown out of proportion. The grain look is intentional.

    1020 has (I think is by design) a very distinctive 5MP supersampled look. It's old schooled, detailed, sharpened, and grainy. (imagine how great the look will be with B&W)

    38MP pictures are less sharp, more natural. They need photoshop to bring out the look.

    If you don't like how Nokia does 5MP supersample - you can start afresh from 38MP and downsample it too how you want it.

    But for majority, the 5MP look is suppose to be what you pay $299 for.

    It pops out.

    Flick between 5MP and 38MP version of pavvento's same frames.

    The difference is amazing.

    It's as if 38MP is natural / still in flux. Where as 5MP is motion freezed.
    That has to be. Those 5 MP images are for what you have "oversampling" of pureview phase 1 that you have on 808 pureview and now Lumia 1020. Oversampling reduces noise without losing details.
    07-21-2013 08:03 PM
  3. Michael Spencer's Avatar
    And the reframing feature. It's bloody amazing.

    Their CEO said you could reframe to different subjects.

    It actually makes sense looking at the 38MP and 5MP zoomed picture.

    Gonna order one when it gets to UK. If my bank manager doesn't mind that is.
    07-21-2013 08:05 PM
  4. vlad0's Avatar
    The 5MP are much sharper. These are meant to be shared - so they're giving it the photogenic treatment. And they look MUCH better to an average Joe's eyes.

    The grain / noise has been blown out of proportion. The grain look is intentional.

    1020 has (I think is by design) a very distinctive 5MP supersampled look. It's old schooled, detailed, sharpened, and grainy. (imagine how great the look will be with B&W)
    I doubt that its intentional, but I agree with you.. they do look old school :)

    Here it is again



    I was hoping we won't see any of that @ 5Mpix and low ISO
    a5cent and greynightshirt like this.
    07-21-2013 08:05 PM
  5. pavvento's Avatar
    What OS version / build version of WP8 is this running by the way?
    8.0.10327.77
    07-21-2013 08:06 PM
  6. vlad0's Avatar
    Overall the 5Mpix images look great.. way better than anything else out there.


    You have to put the 1020 against an iphone or a gs4 to really appreciate the IQ..
    Michael Spencer likes this.
    07-21-2013 08:08 PM
  7. pavvento's Avatar
    I will say this, the phone and the pro software got a lot of attention from my family who all have iPhones and droids.
    07-21-2013 08:10 PM
  8. raccoon210's Avatar
    I've been waiting for this phone for a long time! I can't wait to replace my 900 with this! Just need to wait for the price to drop a bit
    07-21-2013 08:10 PM
  9. Michael Spencer's Avatar
    I doubt that its intentional, but I agree with you.. they do look old school :)

    Here it is again

    http://i.imgur.com/G1I6if7.jpg

    I was hoping we won't see any of that @ 5Mpix and low ISO
    Here again:

    Focus on the older gentleman's hand.

    38MP: Windows Phone_20130721_16_12_27_Pro__highres | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    5MP: Windows Phone_20130721_16_12_27_Pro | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    The amount of detail is beyond amazing. The hand is rendered papery by time in the latter. This is amazing. It sort of brings life back into older images. Sort of gives you the impression the 5MP intends to adds what's missing in those plain jpg, and bring those until now too-perfect digital sharpening to life, with substance that get to the emotion of true subject. In some other shots - the 38 & 5MP actually gives you an illusion of slightly different framing. Suggesting the supersampling technique is seems VERY sophisticated.

    What's what you pay $299 for partly.

    You actually could see additionally detail not in the original 38MP - and not directly as result of sharpening at expense of detail.
    07-21-2013 08:10 PM
  10. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ yes.. I think that the 5mpix stuff looks fine

    I will say this, the phone and the pro software got a lot of attention from my family who all have iPhones and droids.
    It will get a lot of attention anywhere you go :)

    And, a lot of people will miss the whole point of the 1020.. just like they did with the 808.

    Even if a competitor comes close to it in terms of IQ, its not about that.. its about the flexibility it gives you in terms of documenting an even digitally. No other smartphone can do all of these things, as well as the 1020...

    Xenon, fast shutter speeds, OIS, zooming, HAAC stereo recording..

    Any situation you happened to find yourself in, you will get an acceptable result. That is unique to those two pureview phones..
    07-21-2013 08:12 PM
  11. nano321's Avatar
    Certain stores have already received stock...
    AT&T stores were supposed to be the first ones to receive the stock and they will start selling it on 23rd. Prototypes can't be taken to judge quality of images.
    07-21-2013 08:16 PM
  12. nano321's Avatar
    Here again:

    Focus on the older gentleman's hand.

    38MP: Windows Phone_20130721_16_12_27_Pro__highres | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    5MP: Windows Phone_20130721_16_12_27_Pro | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    The amount of detail is beyond amazing. The hand is rendered papery by time in the latter. This is amazing. In some other shots - the 38 & 5MP actually gives you an illusion of slightly different framing. Suggesting the supersampling technique is seems VERY sophisticated.

    What's what you pay $299 for partly.

    You actually could see additionally detail not in the original 38MP - and not directly as result of sharpening at expense of detail.
    Wow!! That looks really good. Amazing details which can't be had from any cam other than 808 pv.
    07-21-2013 08:18 PM
  13. vlad0's Avatar
    Wow!! That looks really good. Amazing details which can't be had from any cam other than 808 pv.
    Good stuff.. considering the size of the device, and.. it is a smartphone.. the results are pretty incredible.

    The jpegs simply look different from the 808's .. that's all

    For example, you won't see that kind of edge sharpening from an 808

    a5cent likes this.
    07-21-2013 08:24 PM
  14. nano321's Avatar
    808
    https://secure.flickr.com/photos/tso...ux/8341412471/

    1020
    https://secure.flickr.com/photos/karabulev/9263829038/

    Just becuase you are blinded by nokia's marketing mean everyone is a troll. I have bought more Nokia phones than you are old in years.
    That's why you are a troll. You are comparing 808 images with tripod and many settings to a Lumia 1020 normal low-light photo and trolling. I have a 808 and without boosting exposure and ISO, it can't capture as much light as even Lumia 920 w/o flash.
    07-21-2013 08:26 PM
  15. Michael Spencer's Avatar
    Again here:

    38MP: Windows Phone_20130721_17_28_28_Pro__highres | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    5MP: Windows Phone_20130721_17_28_28_Pro | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    In these photos, the focus of the effectively shifts to the right - from the first gentleman on the left, to the eye of the gentleman on the right. Simply due to supersampling technique. (see the hair too!) Notice how the gentleman on the right's facial expression appears so much more focused with 5MP. Additionally look at the fence - 5MP's perceived sharpness by far exceed the 38MP shot. The tiny gap between each stripe of the vertical fence is even different; on the 5mp you can see through more! Basically - the detail is all in the 38MP shot.

    Where the magic happens, is within the 1020 which does the heavy lifting. So you could have decent 5MP picture without photoshop most of the time, that actually LOOK good. Where as 38MP allows more advanced shooters to get an the pictures technically right with appropriate processing. When they're back on the workstation.
    07-21-2013 08:32 PM
  16. JustToClarify's Avatar
    Here again:

    Focus on the older gentleman's hand.

    38MP: Windows Phone_20130721_16_12_27_Pro__highres | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    5MP: Windows Phone_20130721_16_12_27_Pro | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    The amount of detail is beyond amazing. The hand is rendered papery by time in the latter. This is amazing. It sort of brings life back into older images. Sort of gives you the impression the 5MP intends to adds what's missing in those plain jpg, and bring those until now too-perfect digital sharpening to life, with substance that get to the emotion of true subject. In some other shots - the 38 & 5MP actually gives you an illusion of slightly different framing. Suggesting the supersampling technique is seems VERY sophisticated.

    What's what you pay $299 for partly.

    You actually could see additionally detail not in the original 38MP - and not directly as result of sharpening at expense of detail.
    are you joking or what?

    http://s18.postimg.org/vhbolqftl/1020.jpg

    it's clear that "supersampling" doesn't work as advertised...
    07-21-2013 08:37 PM
  17. Michael Spencer's Avatar
    are you joking or what?

    http://s18.postimg.org/vhbolqftl/1020.jpg

    it's clear that "supersampling" doesn't work as advertised...
    Having looked through the set of shots outdoor - supersampled are much better on my monitor.
    07-21-2013 08:44 PM
  18. JustToClarify's Avatar
    is your monitor EGA or VGA? :)
    07-21-2013 08:53 PM
  19. pavvento's Avatar
    AT&T stores were supposed to be the first ones to receive the stock and they will start selling it on 23rd. Prototypes can't be taken to judge quality of images.
    What is supposed to happen and what actually happens are very different, but if you want to think this is a prototype please continue to do so. For everyone else, this came out of an AT&T Lumia 1020 box that was with other 1020 phones. Sorry I didn't take pictures of the box!
    07-21-2013 09:16 PM
  20. muderko's Avatar
    What is supposed to happen and what actually happens are very different, but if you want to think this is a prototype please continue to do so. For everyone else, this came out of an AT&T Lumia 1020 box that was with other 1020 phones. Sorry I didn't take pictures of the box!
    I believe this is not a prototype unit, it is just that people still do not want to be disappointed!

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    07-21-2013 09:25 PM
  21. vlad0's Avatar
    ^.. that doesn't look right.. are you sure that the 5mpix is at 100% ?
    07-21-2013 09:30 PM
  22. bygbyron3's Avatar
    are you joking or what?

    http://s18.postimg.org/vhbolqftl/1020.jpg

    it's clear that "supersampling" doesn't work as advertised...
    That picture is 34 MP not 38 MP. I don't know how you zoomed into the hand in the 5 MP picture, but that's a lossy zoomed picture not from the 34 MP version so why would it be super-sampled? Take the 34 MP and reframe the hand!

    Ridiculous comparison.
    Nataku4ca likes this.
    07-21-2013 09:42 PM
  23. biboyflip's Avatar
    You really can't compensate for the smaller sensor area with software that much.. considering how mature the 808's jpeg processing is, its pretty much maxing out what the Toshiba sensor can do.. so.. even if they get to that point with the 1020 in terms of processing, it will always be noisier overall.

    And in terms of sharpness.. if you pump up the sharpness on the 808 to the max its pretty good, I doubt that the 1020 will be that much sharper.

    How accurate do you think that 25% number is ? I am yet to see a high end camera use a BSI sensor and produce a decent image.. if they were 25% more sensitive to light, don't you think that we would've see at least one DSLR with a BSI sensor until now..

    At this point, its just a way for the OEMs to be able to use the same small BSI sensor but pack more pixels into them so the consumer can be led to believe that they are buying a better camera. It also sounds good in the marketing materials..
    Just like in the past, Nokia can always provide an update to fine-tune the overall result. Be it a bump or decrease in saturation, NR, sharpening etc or whichever they see appropriate to improve the result via firmware/sw update. If the response of initial field test (meaning reviewers and early users) are unfavorable, it is almost guaranteed that they will immediately provide the sw tweak. .

    As for the sensor FSI of 808 vs smaller BSI of 1020. It is not just for marketing materials. BSI is the new technology in camera sensor and has been in development for more than 3 years now. That's the reason why you don't see DSLRs with BSI, yet.. The 25% advantage on light sensitivity of BSI I mentioned is actually a conservative value. Toshiba even claims that it can max upto 40% increase compared to FSI with similar sensor size.


    A short summary, FSI needs larger pixel pitch like 1.4 micron to give space for "metal wirings" between lense and photodiode sensors, whereas BSI do not have these wirings in between since they are placed at the "back" of the assembly stack (hidden) and therefore no light obstruction. In essence, FSI is less "efficient" than BSI based on light capture per area because of the metal wirings. Since BSI sensors do not have this wiring layer, the pixel area can now be optimized to a much smaller size like 1.12 micron, still with the same light sensitivity.


    Again this is not a gimik, it is a mature technology that is widely used. Lumia 92X series all have BSI sensors. Even the Sony RX100 II, which is very well known for its amazing quality, is boasting the Exmor R BSI technology, a 40% improvement from its earlier version RX100 with FSI in terms of light capture sensitivity. This new BSI sensor is rumored to be the same 20MP sensor of the anticipated rival of 808, the Sony Honami (Android).


    And from Toshiba themselves, makers of 808 and L1020 sensors, here is what they have to say about their BSI development.

    "BSI brings new levels of responsiveness to CMOS imaging. Lenses are deployed on the rear of the sensor on the silicon substrate, not on the front, where wiring limits light absorption. This positioning boosts light sensitivity and absorption by 40% compared to existing Toshiba products, and allows formation of finer image pixels."

    Toshiba : Press Release 27 Oct, 2009

    Therefore comparing sensors with different type of technology based on size alone is rather pointless.
    But it is very possible that the smaller sensor of 1020 with BSI has the same light capturing sensitivity compared to a much larger sensor of 808 but with FSI.
    07-21-2013 09:55 PM
  24. muderko's Avatar
    Good piece of info biboyflip, thanks.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    biboyflip likes this.
    07-21-2013 09:59 PM
  25. nano321's Avatar
    Good stuff.. considering the size of the device, and.. it is a smartphone.. the results are pretty incredible.

    The jpegs simply look different from the 808's .. that's all

    For example, you won't see that kind of edge sharpening from an 808

    http://i.imgur.com/mKdXgCc.jpg
    True, for one it is BSI on Lumia 1020 vs FSI on 808 and also as mentioned by Juha from Nokia they have fine tuned oversampling on Lumia 1020. Also seems they have boosted color temp a bit on Lumia.
    07-21-2013 10:25 PM
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