04-04-2014 07:06 PM
158 ... 34567
tools
  1. tgr42's Avatar
    If you want to interpret that as an accusation of lying, fine, whatever. I think we don't have the necessary information to determine whether or not he was lying. But his evasiveness suggests the possibility. Maybe he was being truthful given what he knew, maybe it was a case of interviewing poorly, maybe I just read too much into it. It's not like I'm on some personal quest to vilify the man. Geez. I'm only interested in the truth. Now it seems like you're just getting desperate to distract attention from what he actually said.
    10-15-2013 09:33 AM
  2. Bahamen's Avatar
    If you want to interpret that as an accusation of lying, fine, whatever. I think we don't have the necessary information to determine whether or not he was lying. But his evasiveness suggests the possibility. Maybe he was being truthful given what he knew, maybe it was a case of interviewing poorly, maybe I just read too much into it. It's not like I'm on some personal quest to vilify the man. Geez. I'm only interested in the truth. Now it seems like you're just getting desperate to distract attention from what he actually said.
    If you do not know the facts, then I suggest that you steer away from questioning someone's honesty or credibility unless you are prepared to stand by that statement and back that up with facts. Frankly that was wholly unnecessary for you to even raise that in this discussion. You have already indicated that evasiveness suggests possibility of lying, and you acknowledge that you do not know the facts of the situation to determine whether he was evasive, and yet you still insisted on saying he was evasive. That is still a character attack in my opinion.
    10-15-2013 09:47 AM
  3. Bahamen's Avatar
    Good find, thank you. There's clearly chromatic noise present in the dark blue sky in the resized full-res image. Assuming this is not related to JPEG compression (which it shouldn't be), there appears to be a slight advantage to the PureView modes in low light. I wonder how the 1020 would do with this.
    Actually a study on this was done before by DPReview:
    Review: Nokia 808 PureView: page 3: Digital Photography Review
    10-15-2013 10:10 AM
  4. tgr42's Avatar
    If you do not know the facts, then I suggest that you steer away from questioning someone's honesty or credibility unless you are prepared to stand by that statement and back that up with facts. Frankly that was wholly unnecessary for you to even raise that in this discussion. You have already indicated that evasiveness suggests possibility of lying, and you acknowledge that you do not know the facts of the situation to determine whether he was evasive, and yet you still insisted on saying he was evasive. That is still a character attack in my opinion.
    You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I distinguish between lying (knowingly presenting a falsehood as the truth) and being evasive (avoiding answering the question one way or the other).

    Actually a study on this was done before by DPReview:
    Review: Nokia 808 PureView: page 3: Digital Photography Review
    This is good! Exactly what I was looking for. After flipping between the full 3MP images at 1:1 zoom, I think they even understated the advantage of using the PureView mode - in low light, at least. There appears to be a clear advantage. So the next question is, does a similar advantage exist for the 1020, and if not, why not? I couldn't see one in my tests and I haven't seen anyone else test it.
    10-15-2013 10:33 AM
  5. vlad0's Avatar
    Good find, thank you. There's clearly chromatic noise present in the dark blue sky in the resized full-res image. Assuming this is not related to JPEG compression (which it shouldn't be), there appears to be a slight advantage to the PureView modes in low light. I wonder how the 1020 would do with this.
    Yes, that is what I was saying couple of pages back, and I think its how the discussion started :) I always use pureview mode at night and it seems to work quite well all the way up to 800iso. Yes, there is plenty of noise at 800 but still much lower than any other phone.

    I am not sure why the pureview mode does better at this than a post resize, but it does. It really is a very elegant solution for a small device like that.. brilliant stuff from Nokia. I am still very surprised that no one else had thought of it before them. I remember when I saw the first leaked pics from the 808 .. I was like no way, this can't be coming from a phone camera, but luckily for us.. it was

    Now there is something else that I am not sure about, but the HES9 sensor inside the 808 seems to be very sensitive to light.. meaning that at 100iso it could outperform some phone cameras that are shooting at 400 or higher simply because it collects more light, or it seems to be.. that's just my theory.

    I shot this last night,

    this is at 50iso at 1/2 second , and its very accurate to what I saw there.. it was that dark



    this is at 50iso but at 2.7 seconds.. and yes, despite the longer exposure I have no idea where all that light came from.. I mean, you can see all the way up the street

    Maybe its normal behavior, but I am not so sure that it is




    I find that uncertainty to what extent Nokia will (be able to) improve the camera software quite uncomfortable. Besides their announcement to look into the white balance issue I didn't found much more hints what they are going to do in order to enhance the camera.
    They can improve it quite a bit.. I don't think that they are extracting the maximum out of that sensor. Now will they be able to is another matter..
    10-15-2013 11:28 AM
  6. Tech friend's Avatar
    They can improve it quite a bit.. I don't think that they are extracting the maximum out of that sensor. Now will they be able to is another matter..
    Thanks for your reply. And with regard to the 1020/808-comparison in general, I think with your comment here you are hitting the nail on the head:

    They might be able to get it closer, but I don't think that they will ever be able to match the 808 with the available hardware on the 1020. And yes, once you get used to those clean 808 jpegs, its very hard to accept anything else after that.
    10-15-2013 05:46 PM
  7. JustToClarify's Avatar
    hehe that's the page I was searching for, thanks Bahamen :) I thought it was separate article that's why I couldn't find it...

    This is good! Exactly what I was looking for. After flipping between the full 3MP images at 1:1 zoom, I think they even understated the advantage of using the PureView mode - in low light, at least. There appears to be a clear advantage. So the next question is, does a similar advantage exist for the 1020, and if not, why not? I couldn't see one in my tests and I haven't seen anyone else test it.
    it doesn't, since 1020 doesn't have the raw power of 808 to handle the job
    10-16-2013 05:45 AM
  8. tgr42's Avatar
    How about this theory...

    Maybe the 808 actually does do pre-ADC binning (or other pre-ADC assisted processing) as a complex, costly, and extreme measure primarily necessary for dealing with the noise that is only a significant factor in low light conditions. Maybe with the switch from FSI in the 808 to BSI in the 1020, they decided that the improved low-light performance of BSI would be good enough to let them move to a simpler, lower cost solution for the downsampling. Something more profitable and suitable for mass production. With the different sensor, the noise characteristics are different. This design change could explain why it doesn't make much of a difference whether you use Nokia's downsampling or standard downsampling on the 1020, whereas on the 808 there can be a noticeable difference.

    I think there's definitely more to it than just raw processing power.
    10-16-2013 07:28 AM
  9. Bahamen's Avatar
    How about this theory...

    Maybe the 808 actually does do pre-ADC binning (or other pre-ADC assisted processing) as a complex, costly, and extreme measure primarily necessary for dealing with the noise that is only a significant factor in low light conditions. Maybe with the switch from FSI in the 808 to BSI in the 1020, they decided that the improved low-light performance of BSI would be good enough to let them move to a simpler, lower cost solution for the downsampling. Something more profitable and suitable for mass production. With the different sensor, the noise characteristics are different. This design change could explain why it doesn't make much of a difference whether you use Nokia's downsampling or standard downsampling on the 1020, whereas on the 808 there can be a noticeable difference.

    I think there's definitely more to it than just raw processing power.
    You could try lowlight with high ISO on the 1020. According to Nokia the downsampling algorithm is similar to 808 under such circumstances. And by the way, one key takeaway from the DPReview article is the very low chromatic noise present in the 808. That seems true with the 1020 as well, much of it is very fine grain rather than chromatic in nature.
    10-16-2013 08:03 AM
  10. vlad0's Avatar
    ya.. there was some talk of "adaptive" oversampling with the 1020.. which might be the case.
    10-16-2013 09:50 AM
  11. JustToClarify's Avatar
    How about this theory...

    Maybe the 808 actually does do pre-ADC binning (or other pre-ADC assisted processing) as a complex, costly, and extreme measure primarily necessary for dealing with the noise that is only a significant factor in low light conditions. Maybe with the switch from FSI in the 808 to BSI in the 1020, they decided that the improved low-light performance of BSI would be good enough to let them move to a simpler, lower cost solution for the downsampling. Something more profitable and suitable for mass production. With the different sensor, the noise characteristics are different. This design change could explain why it doesn't make much of a difference whether you use Nokia's downsampling or standard downsampling on the 1020, whereas on the 808 there can be a noticeable difference.

    I think there's definitely more to it than just raw processing power.
    WP8 doesn't support dedicated silicon and that's the only reason for 1020 not having it, no need for theories ;)
    10-16-2013 10:49 AM
  12. tgr42's Avatar
    WP8 doesn't support dedicated silicon and that's the only reason for 1020 not having it, no need for theories ;)
    Nice theory. :) I think that limitation was a factor but not the only one. If that limitation did not exist or could be overcome, would they have used dedicated silicon? Doesn't seem certain to me, considering all of the other differences between 808 and 1020.
    10-16-2013 11:29 AM
  13. Bahamen's Avatar
    WP8 doesn't support dedicated silicon and that's the only reason for 1020 not having it, no need for theories ;)
    Didn't HTC 8X come with a separate image processing chip?
    10-16-2013 12:57 PM
  14. tgr42's Avatar
    Didn't HTC 8X come with a separate image processing chip?
    You're right. From WPCentral's review:

    We should note that the HTC 8X has a dedicated imaging chip. In a nutshell this means the 8X processes images a little faster and the camera won't bog down the main processor. Much like a dedicated graphics processor helps take the load off a computer's processor. It's a decent feature and does give the 8X a teeny bit of speed when compared to Windows Phones without the dedicated chip but doesn't leave them in the dust.
    And yet I've heard this argument before, that WP8 doesn't support dedicated silicon. I can't find any basis for it though. Is it just BS or is there some element of truth to it? How is it that the lowly HTC could manage to have a dedicated imaging chip but the almighty Nokia could not? :)
    10-16-2013 01:27 PM
  15. JustToClarify's Avatar
    I'm not sure it's dedicated the same way Broadcom 2763 is :) from what I can read it does some very very simple functions...and it's even on their Android devices so I have to express my doubts in "level of dedication"
    10-16-2013 04:43 PM
  16. Bahamen's Avatar
    I'm not sure it's dedicated the same way Broadcom 2763 is :) from what I can read it does some very very simple functions...and it's even on their Android devices so I have to express my doubts in "level of dedication"
    Ah, so "doesn't support dedicated silicon" becomes doesn't support dedicated silicon the same way as Broadcom 2763. Now, you just guessing or you know that for a fact?
    10-16-2013 07:50 PM
  17. JustToClarify's Avatar
    let's call it an educated guess :)
    10-17-2013 12:09 AM
  18. Tech friend's Avatar
    Steve Litchfield compared the 808 with the 1020 again, this time the latter has the Black update installed.
    01-03-2014 03:07 PM
  19. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ he is still using the 808 in 85% jpeg compression mode..

    This is the maximum you can achieve with the 808.

    50iso, +1 sharpness, -.3 ev, vivid colors, 95% jpeg compression




    Either way, the 1020 is much closer to the 808 post black, and with the added RAW format + exposure control its even better in some regards. I still don't see it as an upgrade to the 808's camera, which is why I am waiting for the next one.

    I just installed a new keyboard on my 808 in preparation for the eventual switch.



    ^ I am really going to miss those call buttons
    01-04-2014 02:24 AM
  20. jeetu4444's Avatar
    Its been 3 months of using lumia 1020.. mostly its been a positive vibe with the lumia 1020. Loved the built . Os is smooth and fluid. Loved the camera thou the yellow tint was and issue . For that I use crop edit app and use auto fix to make the snaps right. Thou there have been issues somtime where the camera refuses to focus on objects. Battery life has been excellent. I love nokia fones.and nokia apps.iam happy with the switch.thou certain simple things I loved from symbian still missings on windows. Like wen we set an alarm its says how many hr remaining. in music app showing recently added, most played and soo on.i miss hdmi output. Awaiting gdr 3 and nokia black. I can see a very good future for windows phone .windows fone still needs ability to install apps on sd card. I must say iam very happy switching from symbian to windows. I have heard gdr 3 fixes the yellow tint and improves the camera. Lets see wat windows 8.1 has to offer.
    01-04-2014 04:06 PM
  21. jeetu4444's Avatar
    I still have my 808 pv as a back up fone and will keep it forever :)
    01-04-2014 04:07 PM
  22. Tech friend's Avatar
    What I am still having slight problems with is how the 1020 defines how a good photography shall look like. This oversaturated bus in Steve's first pic, doesn't it somehow look like a toy or being painted? I think: is reality not intense enough that its image does need that kind of overemphasis? The 808 - as the 1020's opposite - paints a realistic picture of the scene.

    It's true, the dng format makes it possible to adjust all relevant settings to someone's liking but I would need to do that for every single photography just to correct something what I consider to be a not welcome progress. One day I will have to learn to move with the times though.

    At the moment, I pin my hopes on the next generation of MS/Nokia smartphones (post-1020 era).
    01-04-2014 05:31 PM
  23. trinkner's Avatar
    I'm still using the 808. I've thought long and hard (probably obsessively so) about moving to Windows Phone to have more current apps. For me, the 808's camera is superb. From what I can tell from samples online, the 1020's camera isn't quite as good, but it's very close. I think I'd be happy with the 1020's camera.

    The key reasons I haven't switched yet:

    1. No automated sound profile switching (a la Situations on Symbian)
    2. Poor music handling on WP, especially with models with SD cards. I need to have 80GB of music, and the unfixed duplications of tracks bug would drive me nuts. (See entries on this forum and on Microsoft's customer service forums). It seems that MS has known about this bug for over a year but hasn't fixed it.
    3. A claustrophobic feeling when I use some WP apps. (I've spent a lot of time with my wife's Nokia 521). I feel like half the screen is given over to unnecessarily big fonts, but I might be able to get over this.
    4. WP doesn't offer the ViewRanger app.
    5. WP doesn't have any bridge game apps.
    6. WP doesn't have a file manager.
    7. It seems like users have to invent all sorts of work-arounds to do what they want to do, due to MS's intentional limitations of WP. (E.g., unable to attach arbitrary files to emails).
    8. System-wide volume control. I know this is changing soon, which is a good sign.

    Symbian is dying a slow death. I do miss the recent apps, and feel like I'm missing out a bit on the app scene. I'm not a gamer (other than bridge), so I don't miss those, but I do miss Netflix, streaming ESPN (which WP doesn't do), local banking app (which WP doesn't do).

    Mostly, I really want to move to Android, where every app is available and all the system tweaks are available, a la Symbian. But I want a camera on par with the 808.

    I'm surprised that the rest of the world (e.g., people who don't read these kinds of camera-centric forums), seem very pleased with their smartphone cameras. I didn't realize that I was a camera snob until recently, when I realized how happy people were with their blurry photos.

    My dream? Nokia releases an Android equivalent of the 808/1020. Or perhaps Sony finally makes a Z model with a decent photo algorithm and xenon flash. Or MS relents a little bit and allows developers to have access to more low-level APIs so sound profile automation etc. can be made possible on a WP device, and MS fixes the media management oddness and bugs of WP.

    Maybe I need to start my own phone company to do so. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know much about how to do it. :-)
    02-08-2014 06:18 PM
  24. vlad0's Avatar
    Don't move to android.. I still see at as a Symbian wanna be that runs it's java apps in a VM .. it just doesn't feel as clean as Symbian or WP.

    My suggestion is wait for the next camera flagship and see how you feel about it in terms of design and image quality. Then, if possible, make sure that it will be upgradable to "threshold" , which is supposed to merge Windows RT and Windows Phone. If they do the merge right, and the final result is more like RT and less like WP right now.. we might have a winner.

    I am sticking with Symbian in the meantime.. it does everything I need from a modern smartphone. I have a companion Dell Venue 8 Pro and a 2520 for work..so I am covered in terms of "recent' apps.. streaming, etc.
    trinkner likes this.
    02-09-2014 08:24 PM
  25. Bahamen's Avatar
    Wow this thread has been around for quite awhile, surprised to see it resurfacing!

    What I am still having slight problems with is how the 1020 defines how a good photography shall look like. This oversaturated bus in Steve's first pic, doesn't it somehow look like a toy or being painted? I think: is reality not intense enough that its image does need that kind of overemphasis? The 808 - as the 1020's opposite - paints a realistic picture of the scene.

    It's true, the dng format makes it possible to adjust all relevant settings to someone's liking but I would need to do that for every single photography just to correct something what I consider to be a not welcome progress. One day I will have to learn to move with the times though.

    At the moment, I pin my hopes on the next generation of MS/Nokia smartphones (post-1020 era).
    With Black update, the color saturation has been toned down quite a bit. I used to be a fan of the 808's natural look until I realize some vibrance can really make the picture pop out and that's where I really enjoyed using the 1020. I personally think the 808 is too realistic to the point of being uninteresting or even outright bland. Granted the color's been toned down a little since Black (to my slight disappointment), but the imaging algorithm has indeed been improved quite a lot (less noise, more detail) so I'm not complaining.
    02-11-2014 08:07 AM
158 ... 34567

Similar Threads

  1. Krrish 3 Game to be Released on wp before iOS and Android
    By gautam12 in forum Windows Phone 8
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-08-2013, 05:52 PM
  2. Lumia 1020 invisible in Canada
    By machina in forum Nokia Lumia 1020
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  3. Lumia 820 apps
    By jACKSON KWESI AGYEKUM in forum Applications
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-08-2013, 02:33 AM
  4. Lumia 920 audio
    By Pastorhss in forum Nokia Lumia 920
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-07-2013, 06:39 AM
  5. WP8 contacts app to auto-close after call
    By lowrider2107 in forum Applications
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-06-2013, 02:54 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD