Shifting from 808 symbian to lumia 1020

[Bahamen]

All I am saying is that I would take a bigger sensor over OIS any day.. You will be taking advantage of the big sensor in all possible scenarios, where the benefits of OIS are only at low light.

A bigger sensor makes the most difference in lowlight situations. In bright lighting, the difference is a lot smaller. Many of the difference in daylight, I already pointed out, is purely due to default algorithm (sharpening vs NR) rather than sensor size.

For lowlight, OIS can add 2-3 stop advantage, which translates into 400-800% more light received by the camera system. This far outweighs the small difference in sensor size.

To give an example: with the 1020, you can handhold it between 1/2 to 1/4 seconds. With the 808, you can handhold it between 1/8 to 1/16 seconds. So, the 1020 can capture lowlight images with ISO200-400 while the 808 will need ISO800-1600. The 1020 can even capture pretty usable pictures at ISO2500-4000 (see link below), whereas the 808 would simply not be able to capture anything.

Link to 1020 lowlights:
https://plus.google.com/photos/104786644443032070727/albums/5904027411805991297

PS: Yes, you can actually capture reasonable images up to 1/8s even without OIS. With OIS, it can go up to 1 seconds. If you need 1/20s, I'm guessing you got shaky hands

 

[Bahamen]

I also want to add this. Before I bought the 1020, I was using my 808 to shoot a concert. I was sitting somewhere at the back of the concert, and used maximum zoom for video recording. I think I was using 360p and 10x zoom or something. Oh yes, the video was shaking like CRAZY. That's when I wished I was recording on the 920, but then the 920 didn't have good zooming capability.

It was then I had an "EUREKA" moment. It occurred to me, that hand-shaking is a big problem for zooming, and OIS is a perfect solution. It occurred to me, that the OIS, first implemented in the 920, was NOT a random innovation by Nokia. It was actually a natural progression from the 808's 41MP. The 41MP solved the zooming problem in smartphones. The OIS solved the shaking problem caused by zooming. Nokia had actually thought several steps ahead, so that each new invention will complement (rather than replace) the previous one. So it makes perfect sense that OIS and 41MP must eventually come together.

 

[vlad0]

You will have a very hard time holding the 808 still for a blur free image at anything below 1/20th, but if you rest it on something or have any arm support.. you could go lower than that.

The link you posted shows that despite the OIS the 1020 opts for rather high ISO values, which fills the image with noise/grain and you end up loosing detail. I would much rather have the shutter open for longer, but keep the ISO as low as possible, that way you get nice, clean images.

Take a look at these:


http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201209022357qBk0ky.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201209142114355dVH.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201308150045O4gV6b.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/2013082518587X390I.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201308112130QoD49W.jpg

Low ISO, max shutter spped. These are all full resolution images, no resize.. I am yet to see a low light image from the 1020 which is as clean as any of those.

 

[tgr42]

What do you mean by full resolution images? They are only 8MP.

In my (limited) testing it seems the 1020 can do quite well in low light, provided you use a tripod, low ISO, and long shutter speed. Naturally it's going to default to higher ISO/shorter shutter speed on auto to avoid blurriness due to camera shake. OIS can only do so much.

 

[vlad0]

What do you mean by full resolution images? They are only 8MP.

Full resolution pureview mode pictures.. its better to use pureview for low light, the algorithm cleans up the junk nicely.

 

[tgr42]

Full resolution pureview mode pictures.. its better to use pureview for low light, the algorithm cleans up the junk nicely.

Oh, ok. Yes, resizing will do that.

 

[vlad0]

Oh, ok. Yes, resizing will do that.

Its not quite simple resizing

If you take a look at the white paper from the Nokia, available here: https://db.tt/4td8Yowr

You will find this information on page 6

Then if you read the interview DD gave right after they launched the technology in 2012 here: http://www.gsmarena.com/d_dinning_interview_nokia_808-review-728p2.php

You will find this quote on page 2

"Now along the way, we realized that there would be other benefits of using this very high resolution sensor, other than just zoom.

One of those is the oversampling capability.This is where, when you are using the default 5 MP setting, we take up to 7 pixels, take the information that you want from those pixels, and process that using some Nokia algorithms. We are then able to throw away most of the visual noise that you don't want, and what that leaves you with are pixels that are extremely precise, so you see far more detail with a 5 MP image than you could capture with any other device, when you're using no zoom.

That's when you get the best quality—when you're not using zoom, because you get all the benefits from the oversampling. So in good lighting conditions, typically you won't see any noise at all. They look like SLR images."

Then if you watch this short video you can visually see what they are talking about.

All of this predates the 1020 by about a year, and a lot of it applies to it as well.

 

[tgr42]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of sad news, my friend, but I'm afraid you've been duped. Any decent quality image resize algorithm does resampling, aka oversampling. Despite Nokia's marketing efforts and whitepapers, they don't actually have any special algorithm that outperforms a standard image resize algorithm. Don't just take my word for it though. It's very easy to prove to yourself. Simply take one of the real full-res images (~38MP), resize it down yourself using software such as Photoshop, Paint.NET, or IrfanView to the same size as the phone's "special" image (5MP or 8MP), and compare the two low-res images at 1:1 zoom level or greater. The results speak for themselves.

I've demonstrated in another thread here what the 1020's resize from 38MP to 5MP does exactly, and showed here how IrfanView is able to produce a resized image that is just as sharp as the phone's 5MP version but actually has slightly higher quality due to less severe artifacting.

If you look closely at what Nokia has said, they don't actually claim to have anything beyond the benefits afforded by high resolution. They originally wanted optical zoom, but they gave up on that because they thought going with high resolution was a better tradeoff when all factors were considered. The truth is that the high resolution alone is what makes it possible to resize images down and get better quality at lower resolution. Part of that is related to the Nyquist theorem, and part of it is related to compensating for shoddy sensors that do chroma subsampling (what they call "conventional 8MPix sensors" in the quote above).

This is nothing against Nokia. They've done a good job with the 808 and 1020. I just think it's unfortunate when marketing gets in the way of understanding reality, especially in cases when that understanding could aid in making properly informed decisions.

 

[vlad0]

I know .. they are using something very similar to the lanczos algorithm on the 808 and I've been resizing full resolution images using that same algorithm for a while now. But for some reason in low light the on board algorithm does a better job than what I can do on my PC.

If I am actually manually doing it, I much rather go higher up in resolution.. I've pushed the 808 up to 18Mpix and it still retains decent IQ. but anything beyond that and the pixels start showing their true 1.4 micron nature.


15mpix

11Mpix

15Mpix

18Mpix

12Mpix

10Mpix

 

[tgr42]

Oh, I remember that incredible car picture. It helped sell me on the 1020 in the first place. Thanks!

 

[JustToClarify]

It is so, just a few old timers refuse to believe it.

well, maybe we'd rather believe our own eyes

The only caveat to my comments is "no tripod, no SteadyCam, no artificial support, just good old handholding".

what's "artificial" support? do you consider it artificial if I rest the phone with the hand against my other arm or chest(self-timer is a very handy thing)?

No, the 1020's real BIG advantage in macro lies in the minimum focusing distance. You can get MUCH closer to the subject with the 1020, whereas the distance for 808 is much further away. So you need to rely less on digital zooming with the 1020.

I don't think the difference is that big as you state, bigger advantage for 1020 is manual focus

Interesting discussion. I saw a review on YouTube comparing the 808 VS the 1020 and my conclusion of that one was that no matter the lighting, both cameras have different strengths and that they both are great. Sometimes the shots made by the 808 got lightning and sharpness wrong, and so did the 1020 with color being a problem. But overall the 1020 performed better. When the 1020 got the picture right it kicked the 808 in the scrotum.
But also the picture quality comes down to taste. So I see the 808 and 1020 as different cameras with different strength with the 1020 winning in the long run, mostly due to it being newer and today more developed technology. Just the nature of things I guess.

(almost)all those Internet reviews are done in auto-mode, difference between auto and manual on 808 are literally night and day, especially at night

also, newer doesn't have to be better, especially if it's physically limited by sheer size

This is mostly due to 1020 prioritizing sharpness over noise reduction in their downsampling algorithm. Damian has indicated that if you run the 1020's image through post-processing, the result will be very similar to that of the 808's. From the looks of it, the difference is more software than hardware.

I'm sure Nokia engineers are plenty clever. After all, your beloved 808 was their brainchild. As for OIS, I disagree with you. It is an extremely useful feature for lowlights. As I mentioned earlier, I do not carry a tripod everywhere I go. Even if I brought my DSLR, I would still leave the tripod behind. What you're saying is, leave the DSLR at home but bring along the tripod instead? Doesn't make sense. If the new OIS technology can replace the tripod and make your life easier, why not? If you carry a bunch of stuff with you everytime you go photographing, why bother with phone-cams? You're better off bringing your entire DSLR rig with you since you obviously don't mind the inconvenience.

1. oversharpening is there more because of nature of BSI sensor not because of software...pictures look oversharpened even in full res mode

2. stabilising DSLR is tricky as they often weigh more than 1 kilo, stabilising ~170g phone is very easy even without tripod, believe me...there are 1/100 situations where I can't stabilise my phone

I also want to add this. Before I bought the 1020, I was using my 808 to shoot a concert. I was sitting somewhere at the back of the concert, and used maximum zoom for video recording. I think I was using 360p and 10x zoom or something. Oh yes, the video was shaking like CRAZY. That's when I wished I was recording on the 920, but then the 920 didn't have good zooming capability.

then again you can stabilise the video on your PC, I know it can be tiresome if you record important videos with zoom every day but then you probably already use a professional camera

I'm sorry to be the bearer of sad news, my friend, but I'm afraid you've been duped. Any decent quality image resize algorithm does resampling, aka oversampling. Despite Nokia's marketing efforts and whitepapers, they don't actually have any special algorithm that outperforms a standard image resize algorithm. Don't just take my word for it though. It's very easy to prove to yourself. Simply take one of the real full-res images (~38MP), resize it down yourself using software such as Photoshop, Paint.NET, or IrfanView to the same size as the phone's "special" image (5MP or 8MP), and compare the two low-res images at 1:1 zoom level or greater. The results speak for themselves.

I've demonstrated in another thread here what the 1020's resize from 38MP to 5MP does exactly, and showed here how IrfanView is able to produce a resized image that is just as sharp as the phone's 5MP version but actually has slightly higher quality due to less severe artifacting.

If you look closely at what Nokia has said, they don't actually claim to have anything beyond the benefits afforded by high resolution. They originally wanted optical zoom, but they gave up on that because they thought going with high resolution was a better tradeoff when all factors were considered. The truth is that the high resolution alone is what makes it possible to resize images down and get better quality at lower resolution. Part of that is related to the Nyquist theorem, and part of it is related to compensating for shoddy sensors that do chroma subsampling (what they call "conventional 8MPix sensors" in the quote above).

This is nothing against Nokia. They've done a good job with the 808 and 1020. I just think it's unfortunate when marketing gets in the way of understanding reality, especially in cases when that understanding could aid in making properly informed decisions.

huh, there is a difference between oversampling straight from the sensor and oversampling from file, one clear example is 808&1020, full res 1020 photos show almost the same amount of grain as oversampled...

 

[Tech friend]

Here, and make sure to click on it for full resolution.

[url]http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201305052343DrX30k_n.jpg[/URL]

Brilliant shot. Clearly demonstrating the 808's superiority.

Also your photos presented here are absolutely stunning, especially this one impresses me.

Very well done.

 

[vlad0]

Brilliant shot. Clearly demonstrating the 808's superiority.

Also your photos presented here are absolutely stunning, especially this one impresses me.

Very well done.

Thank you, but they are not mine They belong to this guy: Flickr: 9 Destiny's Photostream

The ones from post number 49 are mine, and this is my account Flickr:

 

[Tech friend]

Thank you, but they are not mine They belong to this guy: Flickr: 9 Destiny's Photostream

The ones from post number 49 are mine, and this is my account Flickr:

For the former photos the credit then goes to Kamil (mobile shooter/9 Destiny), but your set of photographies is every bit as marvellous as his one, regarding both the photo motives and the technical side. My two favorites from your post 49 are

• http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201308312007H900Jr.jpg
• http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201306202306wX8Tj2.jpg [!]

I still hope that Nokia will realize that there is a great and growing demand for being able to take photos with the 1020 in that 'pure' 808-style.

 

[vlad0]

^ thanks! Very kind..

Can someone please try the 1020 a longer exposure @ 100iso ? Any dark scene should do..

I decided to try a long exposure so I put the 808 on a table while waiting for my friend to get some food..

2.4 seconds @ 50iso


100%

 

[tgr42]

huh, there is a difference between oversampling straight from the sensor and oversampling from file, one clear example is 808&1020, full res 1020 photos show almost the same amount of grain as oversampled...

Ok, and the difference is...?? If there was a benefit, it would be visible in the results. It is not. The reason you can still see grain in the 1020's 5MP images is because they are oversharpened during the phone's resize process. This is not a desirable thing.

I'll back up my claims with evidence. Attached, find some images that demonstrate very clearly what I'm talking about using a photo I took with my 1020:

1) 5MP.jpg: Cropped from the phone's 5MP image
2) 5MP-irf.jpg: Resized from the phone's 38MP image to 5MP using IrfanView with "Apply sharpen after Resample", then cropped
3) 5MP-pdn.jpg: Resized from the phone's 38MP image to 5MP using Paint.NET, then cropped
4) 38MP.jpg: Cropped from the phone's 38MP image

The first three images have been further resized by 300% using nearest-neighbor to allow for a close look at the unaltered pixels. Open them in separate tabs, make sure you're viewing them at 1:1 zoom level, and flip between the tabs for a proper in-place image comparison. The last image (38MP.jpg) is only cropped, no additional resize.

As I see it, the phone's 5MP resampled image is VERY close to what IrfanView produces from the 38MP image, except IrfanView does a slightly better job in my opinion. Personally I consider both to be oversharpened, and prefer the third image which has been resized with no additional sharpening. Of course, the desirable level of sharpness is both situational and subjective.

Also note that because of the JPEG compression, the 5MP you get from the phone's 5MP image is not as good as the 5MP you get from resampling the 38MP image. This is very noticeable along the edge of the face by the ear where the head is bleeding into the background in the phone's 5MP image.

In summary, the 5MP oversampled image is sufficient for casual use such as sharing images on social networking sites, especially if the image is going to get resized down further. But if you're going to keep the image at 5MP and really want the best quality, you're only deluding yourself if you think the phone's resizing is somehow producing a result that is superior to resizing the full-res image on your own.

 

[jeetu4444]

I think future update can make the camera processing better...if iam right...even 808 had got few updates fr camera... am I right ? And 1020 is very new...maybe will gdr 3 we will get camera improvement....

 

[vlad0]

^ yes, the 808 got several camera updates, but the changes were mostly performance and UI more so than image quality. They pretty much got it right when they shipped it.

You can be sure that the 1020 will be getting numerous camera updates.. they have to fix that yellow tone when using the xenon in auto mode, it will be nice to add sharpness settings, and also several different presets for the settings so you don't have to change them every time.

 

[jeetu4444]

Guys my lumia 1020 is here...soo happy to have it...love the yellow colour and the.feel....awesome built and screen ...will tranfer all my stuff frm 808 to 1020...and start using it as my main fone......will soon give a short review ...hiw it feels frm symbian to windows...

 

[JustToClarify]

Ok, and the difference is...?? If there was a benefit, it would be visible in the results. It is not. The reason you can still see grain in the 1020's 5MP images is because they are oversharpened during the phone's resize process. This is not a desirable thing.

I'll back up my claims with evidence. Attached, find some images that demonstrate very clearly what I'm talking about using a photo I took with my 1020:

1) 5MP.jpg: Cropped from the phone's 5MP image
2) 5MP-irf.jpg: Resized from the phone's 38MP image to 5MP using IrfanView with "Apply sharpen after Resample", then cropped
3) 5MP-pdn.jpg: Resized from the phone's 38MP image to 5MP using Paint.NET, then cropped
4) 38MP.jpg: Cropped from the phone's 38MP image

The first three images have been further resized by 300% using nearest-neighbor to allow for a close look at the unaltered pixels. Open them in separate tabs, make sure you're viewing them at 1:1 zoom level, and flip between the tabs for a proper in-place image comparison. The last image (38MP.jpg) is only cropped, no additional resize.

As I see it, the phone's 5MP resampled image is VERY close to what IrfanView produces from the 38MP image, except IrfanView does a slightly better job in my opinion. Personally I consider both to be oversharpened, and prefer the third image which has been resized with no additional sharpening. Of course, the desirable level of sharpness is both situational and subjective.

Also note that because of the JPEG compression, the 5MP you get from the phone's 5MP image is not as good as the 5MP you get from resampling the 38MP image. This is very noticeable along the edge of the face by the ear where the head is bleeding into the background in the phone's 5MP image.

In summary, the 5MP oversampled image is sufficient for casual use such as sharing images on social networking sites, especially if the image is going to get resized down further. But if you're going to keep the image at 5MP and really want the best quality, you're only deluding yourself if you think the phone's resizing is somehow producing a result that is superior to resizing the full-res image on your own.

you have just confirmed my statements, 1020 does "software" resampling thus you have both 38&5MP pictures on your phone, if 808 would do the same (as you state) it could save all 38&8&5&2 MP pictures at the same time

but it doesn't, and there is proof somewhere on dpreview forums that 808 hardware oversampling does different things than resize on a PC, too lazy to find it for you though