1020 Camera after saving process is ... Ruining the result

[TheCrazySwede]

I tended to notice the over-the-top colour saturation more in Amber than I did the yellowish tinge.....as for so-called "blurriness" of photos I did a little test using the Pro Cam (5MP oversampled version and 34MP full-resolution) and the default camera app (oversample 5MP image). I used my dog as a makeshift white balance card (her fur is pretty much whitist white) and a gauge as to how much detail the respective modes spit out. I cropped the images to the same ratio in photoshop and then screenshotted them in the default Photo Viewer (I'll explain why after the photos) Here are the photos (sorry for the grain I had to resize the overall images so I could upload them here):

34MP image (cropped)
View attachment 54799
5MP Nokia Camera image (oversampled, cropped)
View attachment 54800
5MP Default Camera image (oversampled, cropped)
View attachment 54802

The reason why I screenshotted the photos in my photo viewer on my computer with a 1080p display is because most computers/phones these days have a resolution of 1080p and so thus this is what the image initially looks like when you open the photo. On my 1080p 23" monitor, the 34MP image looks the "softest", followed by the 5MP Pro Cam image and finally the default Camera image. However if you zoom in on the 34MP image a little bit you get a similar "sharpness" to that of the default camera image:
View attachment 54803
...this is because there are merely not enough pixels for the 34MP image (zoomed out fully like the 5MP image) to show ALL the details present in the photo - if we were to have a 4K monitor (I don't, sorry) then the 34MP would appear sharper than the 5MP images because there are more pixels present on the display and so more room to display the 'more pixels' in the 34MP image.

This is why we all think the screenshotted "saving" image is better looking than the final image as well - think of oversampling except extremefied (you're not going to get a full-resolution digital viewfinder on this phone without some judder) and you get the viewfinder/"saving" image - the camera will oversample and thus have the viewfinder at a lower resolution that it can handle to stream live to the screen without judder. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 5MP image...at this point in time the ridiculous megapixel count gives more benefit to reframing and oversampling that simply an initially "sharper" picture as our screens don't have nearly as many pixels as the photos contain.

As for the green/yellow tinges I don't notice them too much.....although I do prefer RAW images myself because I have more granular control over the settings

^This +1

The whole WB issue with the 1020's JPEG processing keeps popping up on these forums over and over again, and yet, nobody reads sensible posts like the one above explaining why. I have, too, explained this exact thing again, and again, but nobody seems to want to care. Perhaps people don't want a solution; they just want to complain. The real culprit of the "blurry and saturated" photos is the phone's display. Even with the coolest colour profile, it still looks horrible. View the same image on a better display (If you have access to a Galaxy S4, try sending that phone a picture and see how different it looks) and you'll notice a huge difference. I've seen some amazing results from the 1020 displayed on a 2014 Macbook Pro (with Retina Display,) meanwhile those same pictures look less clear on my other laptop with 1366x786 resolution, and even worse on the phone itself. My biggest disappointment, by far, with the 1020 is the display. For high quality photos, you have to have a high quality display.

For those of you who completely ignore the above, here are some simple solutions:
1. Use Nokia's Auto-Fix feature (Helps in most cases)
2. Use Creative Studio
3. Shoot in RAW

 

[buxz777]

Is your photo review turn on in the settings of Nokia Camera?

there is no doubting that the image in the photo preview looks different to what the actual saved photo does ........ does that mean the 1020 is taking bad photos? no way , my 1020 is taking great pictures , ok now and again the auto settings could be a bit better but they have got a lot better with black as has the noise levels and colour balance

can I just ask a very sensible question here ...... the raw data captured from the sensor before any processing would be the dng file? yes? no? I think personally yes , it is info straight from the sensor without any processing etc done to the picture so this should reflect what the 1020 is taking from the sensor ....... not a preview image showing what has been captured ..... so what does the preview image show? the processed image that the phone has made? well it could be? a half processed image? well that is possible but surely this isn't the way it would be done? a quick sample of the image? again possible and it could explain why the preview is different from the saved processed jpeg?? I don't know but I do know that the raw data from the sensor is in the dng file and not what you see on the screen after the photo has been taken ...... the photo on the screen after the picture has been taken has to either be a quick preview shot , the processed image or something else

I think the user above me jojoe has come up with a logical explanation to why the preview image looks different/better and it has nothing to do with processing but more to do with pixels/the screen its being viewed on for the following reasons

a) the raw data can be seen in the dng file which is different to the preview shot so the preview shot is not a raw image before the processing, which means that this is not a case of nokias bad processing

b) the processed image is different to the preview shot so how can the preview shot be a processed shot? how many processes does the 1020 do , it does not process the same image multiple times displaying one as a quick preview and then saving another this would be ridiculous

there seems to be a lot of assumptions in this thread but if you ask some questions then really it looks like jojoe has come up with a very logical explanation?? I think the biggest question is what is the preview image , it isn't the raw data and it isn't the processed image so what is it?? surely it has to be the processed image just being displayed different??

as the crazy swede and jojoe has said it has to be something to do with pixels/screen not bad processing from raw data to jpeg ....... in fact nokias processing is some of the best you will see , even better then some very very good cameras that take great raw images but are let down in jpeg mode to bad processing!!

check your pictures out on a 1080p hd monitor or tv ...... they look amazing on my 40" Samsung 1080p tv ...... a decent photo is literally jaw dropping ;-)

 

[chmun77]

It seems that 1020 has difficulty focusing on people in dim places. It is able to capture good lights, but somehow the background looks sharper than people in the photos, although i have already tapped focus on the foreground. Something is just not right.

 

[jojoe42]

It seems that 1020 has difficulty focusing on people in dim places. It is able to capture good lights, but somehow the background looks sharper than people in the photos, although i have already tapped focus on the foreground. Something is just not right.

Most cameras will have issues focusing in low-light - have you made sure the focus assist light is on? The other way is to use manual focus, which can give mixed results if you're taking a portrait

there is no doubting that the image in the photo preview looks different to what the actual saved photo does ........ does that mean the 1020 is taking bad photos? no way , my 1020 is taking great pictures , ok now and again the auto settings could be a bit better but they have got a lot better with black as has the noise levels and colour balance

can I just ask a very sensible question here ...... the raw data captured from the sensor before any processing would be the dng file? yes? no? I think personally yes , it is info straight from the sensor without any processing etc done to the picture so this should reflect what the 1020 is taking from the sensor ....... not a preview image showing what has been captured ..... so what does the preview image show? the processed image that the phone has made? well it could be? a half processed image? well that is possible but surely this isn't the way it would be done? a quick sample of the image? again possible and it could explain why the preview is different from the saved processed jpeg?? I don't know but I do know that the raw data from the sensor is in the dng file and not what you see on the screen after the photo has been taken ...... the photo on the screen after the picture has been taken has to either be a quick preview shot , the processed image or something else

I think the user above me jojoe has come up with a logical explanation to why the preview image looks different/better and it has nothing to do with processing but more to do with pixels/the screen its being viewed on for the following reasons

a) the raw data can be seen in the dng file which is different to the preview shot so the preview shot is not a raw image before the processing, which means that this is not a case of nokias bad processing

b) the processed image is different to the preview shot so how can the preview shot be a processed shot? how many processes does the 1020 do , it does not process the same image multiple times displaying one as a quick preview and then saving another this would be ridiculous

there seems to be a lot of assumptions in this thread but if you ask some questions then really it looks like jojoe has come up with a very logical explanation?? I think the biggest question is what is the preview image , it isn't the raw data and it isn't the processed image so what is it?? surely it has to be the processed image just being displayed different??

as the crazy swede and jojoe has said it has to be something to do with pixels/screen not bad processing from raw data to jpeg ....... in fact nokias processing is some of the best you will see , even better then some very very good cameras that take great raw images but are let down in jpeg mode to bad processing!!

check your pictures out on a 1080p hd monitor or tv ...... they look amazing on my 40" Samsung 1080p tv ...... a decent photo is literally jaw dropping ;-)

The 1020 is not simply taking bad photos - like I said most the screens we have these days simply cannot show off how awesome the photos look because of a lack of pixels (on the screens).

Yes, the raw camera data is the .dng file - when you take a regular JPEG photo, the phone will take the raw camera data and convert it into a JPEG. Obviously raw camera data converted straight into a photo can look bad without any processing, so the phone applies some general processing to the photo to make it look better which is what people are blaming for the so-called "bad" photos. Instead of doing all this, when you shoot in RAW/.DNG mode, the phone will take two photos - one being the raw camera sensor data, and then the phone will also process a separate copy of the raw camera data to produce an oversampled 5MP image which is the photo you see in the camera roll as WP does not allow viewing of .DNG files by default. So you are looking at a processed oversampled 5MP image on the phone but there is a separate file in the phone's storage that has the file extension .dng instead of .jpg

In regard to the "processing" of the preview photo that you see when it is 'saving' and the final image, refer to my post earlier; when you see the 'saving' image or in the digital viewfinder (live shooting preview) it is a lower resolution, "oversampled" preview - there is no processing involved in both the viewfinder mode or the 'saving' image - since both are at a lower resolution so it is at a manageable framerate, the sensor oversamples the given data to a lower resolution i.e. every 17 pixels are represented by 1 pixel on the viewfinder/screen, to reduce the constant computing power and thus CPU usage to show a live view. So if say one area of 17 pixels is black at centre and dark gray around the outside, the camera will "oversample" or average the colours in that area of 17 into one pixel - so in this case the actual 17 pixel area instead of being black at centre and grey around the outside will appear black (in that one pixel representing that area of 17) in the live viewfinder. The sensor will "average" out colours in the live/'saving' views and thus why some colours appear better in contrast because although not representative of the actual image, we can physically see the areas of darkness better because the lower resolution view matches the lower resolution screen, and so we aren't missing any detail. However on a larger screen this live preview/'saving' image would appear 'blurry' and would lack fine detail. I'm sorry this is probably not the best explanation....but I try

So in conclusion, the preview/'saving' image, the final processed image and the raw camera data are all three separate things - the preview/'saving' image being the ridiculously colour inaccurate and ridiculously oversampled lower resolution view. the raw camera data just the data taken from the camera sensor and stored directly without any processing applied to it and the final JPEG processed image being the raw camera data fully processed to not look as harsh as the raw camera data is initially.

 

[jojoe42]

^This +1

The whole WB issue with the 1020's JPEG processing keeps popping up on these forums over and over again, and yet, nobody reads sensible posts like the one above explaining why. I have, too, explained this exact thing again, and again, but nobody seems to want to care. Perhaps people don't want a solution; they just want to complain. The real culprit of the "blurry and saturated" photos is the phone's display. Even with the coolest colour profile, it still looks horrible. View the same image on a better display (If you have access to a Galaxy S4, try sending that phone a picture and see how different it looks) and you'll notice a huge difference. I've seen some amazing results from the 1020 displayed on a 2014 Macbook Pro (with Retina Display,) meanwhile those same pictures look less clear on my other laptop with 1366x786 resolution, and even worse on the phone itself. My biggest disappointment, by far, with the 1020 is the display. For high quality photos, you have to have a high quality display.

For those of you who completely ignore the above, here are some simple solutions:
1. Use Nokia's Auto-Fix feature (Helps in most cases)
2. Use Creative Studio
3. Shoot in RAW

Or try shooting in oversampled 5MP mode until we all have 4K/8K screens 38MP images will not look as great as they can be

 

[taymur]

^This +1

".... For high quality photos, you have to have a high quality display." not really, think DSLR.

but i totally agree that the screen and the color profile has something to do with it.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Even photos taken with a DSLR suffer when viewed on the 1020's display vs. a 1080 or even a 4K display, so I don't really see your point. The display of the phone brings down its level of potential quality. Look at a DSLR photo on the 1020, and then look at the same photo on a Retina Display or even an S4's screen and you'll see the difference. I'm not referring to the quality of the photo, but how it looks on different displays. It would be nice to have a high quality display on the phone to show off what it can so. DSLR's shoot such rich photos that they look good even on crappy displays, but you really see the potential of the photo when viewed on a better display.

 

[chmun77]

Most cameras will have issues focusing in low-light - have you made sure the focus assist light is on? The other way is to use manual focus, which can give mixed results if you're taking a portrait.

I can't have AF light on because it will irritates my friends. But given Nokia camera with such a good reputation with Pureview, is just not right that it cannot even focus well. Furthermore, the place is not really that dark

 

[the_whatever]

^This +1

The whole WB issue with the 1020's JPEG processing keeps popping up on these forums over and over again, and yet, nobody reads sensible posts like the one above explaining why. I have, too, explained this exact thing again, and again, but nobody seems to want to care. Perhaps people don't want a solution; they just want to complain. The real culprit of the "blurry and saturated" photos is the phone's display. Even with the coolest colour profile, it still looks horrible. View the same image on a better display (If you have access to a Galaxy S4, try sending that phone a picture and see how different it looks) and you'll notice a huge difference. I've seen some amazing results from the 1020 displayed on a 2014 Macbook Pro (with Retina Display,) meanwhile those same pictures look less clear on my other laptop with 1366x786 resolution, and even worse on the phone itself. My biggest disappointment, by far, with the 1020 is the display. For high quality photos, you have to have a high quality display.

For those of you who completely ignore the above, here are some simple solutions:
1. Use Nokia's Auto-Fix feature (Helps in most cases)
2. Use Creative Studio
3. Shoot in RAW

Another +1... People should really read this AND Jojoe42's post. I have the 1020 myself and agree - the screen's colour accuracy is terrible. If only Nokia would have used the LCD from the 920...

 

[Bahamen]

I can't have AF light on because it will irritates my friends. But given Nokia camera with such a good reputation with Pureview, is just not right that it cannot even focus well. Furthermore, the place is not really that dark

The 1020's focusing is generally accurate, just that it may have difficulties locking focus in lowlight. And this is quite a common problem even for high end compact cameras. My suggestion is to use manual focus at infinity for anything that is more than 2 meters away. It works pretty well and the shot is pretty much instantaneous.

 

[TruPlaya187]

Another +1... People should really read this AND Jojoe42's post. I have the 1020 myself and agree - the screen's colour accuracy is terrible. If only Nokia would have used the LCD from the 920...

Thanks for the information and it makes a lot of sense!!!! Now also, when people are saying that they see a lot of yellowish on the photos when viewing from their Lumia 1020, try this!

Depending on your Lumia Color Profile options (mine was set as default: temperature & saturation in the neutral position) take a picture that you would probably see a little bit of yellowish to the final pic, then go back to that Lumia Color Profile option in the settings-display and switch both options (temperature & saturation) to the coolest and natural and then go back to your pic, you will see a big difference!!!

I've written this because when I take a picture, most of the time, I just keep it on my phone and show it to people via my phone..so sometimes the person will say to me wow...it's kind of yellowish....not anymore with this tip.

 

[taymur]

If you want to see the work of the algorithms, go to complete dark room, increase exposure to max, and shutter speed to 4 sec.
You are most probably going to get a very noisy black image. Then see what happens. Try it. You will appreciate the smoothening hehe

 

[oldgreygeek]

I AM SORRY, but I really do not understand most of this post.

1st of all: .DNG files are the RAW data from the sensor. RAW files cannot be viewed at all. They are interpreted by the viewer software into RGB files so they can be seen on a screen. DNG's must be processed (converted) by a software program prior to saving them to .jpg's, or whatever.

2) The .DNG's contain more bits/pixel information and more pixels to boot, thus they are of higher resolution and larger file size both before and after conversion to viewable formats.

3) The biggest advantage, other than 2 above, in post processing the .DNG's is you do not have .jpg compression artifacts to remove. In other words all photos that are saved as .jpg's will have .jpg compression artifacts to deal with unless the compression is set to its lowest setting, or maximum file size.
Unfortunately all smart phones and most p&s cameras preset the compression ratio for us, thus you have no control over that setting. If it is set to give you the smallest file sizes, you will get the most artifacts.
This is not noise, but some call it noise.
RAW, .DNG's are not compressed thus the file size is very large and they, obviously contain no artifacts.
But, if you, after post processing them, save them as highly compressed .jpg's they too will contain .jpg artifacts.
This has nothing to do with the camera. .

4) All RAW images from ALL cameras contain noise. Yes, even the $4,000.00 ones. They all need to be post processed to remove or reduce the noise.
BTW the images from the 1020 clean up very nicely with a decent noise removal plugin for your post processing software, I like NIK's Define2, or TOPAZ. Corel's PSPx5, Photoshop's suite(s) all have built in Noise reduction selections.

5) the question I have, is How did anyone get the photo of the picture prior to it being saved in the camera????? impossible.

Yes, if you mean the interpreted 34mp .DNG image versus the down-sampled 5mp .jpg I can understand some difference, but not a heck of a lot unless you are blowing it up 2, 3 or more times,
There of course there will be a difference due to the stuff I detailed above. Artifacts, resolution, noise all of it will result in somewhat less than ideal. Of course, the .jpg's, can be post processed to remove most annoyances and improve sharpness, exposure, detail and so on.

And finally
Remember photography is all about light, color, and composition. or as Ansel Adams stated "Taking great photographs is knowing where to stand." And someone stated. "The best camera to have is the one with you!"

 

[mariusmuntean]

The same kind of issues are found on 920 and 928. Ever since the Amber update photos have a lack of sharpness, strange color tints and a serious problem with excessive blur.

 

[Live2Deliver]

i dont think this was fixed in the Black update. Like what was mentioned by chobits, After u press the shutter button, the pic looks awesome while it's saving
But then it looks bad after it's saved...

however, thanks to nokia creative studio, its not that bad after all.

With the answers... with the S, everywhere on the same thread, here we got another one who didn't want to 'know why'.

"Perhaps people don't want a solution; they just want to complain." - TheCrazySwede:winktongue:

 

[jojoe42]

People should seriously read the answers in this forum PROPERLY.....the photos on any camera can only be as good as the person taking it...and if you disagree with that you can go back to taking blurry, noisy images on your iPhones that look terrible after reframing

"You don't appreciate something until it's gone"

 

[Propov]

Another +1... People should really read this AND Jojoe42's post. I have the 1020 myself and agree - the screen's colour accuracy is terrible. If only Nokia would have used the LCD from the 920...

Yes stupid Amoled is wrong screen for serious devices like 1020.I had 920 and the diference is so so visible.Amoled colors is good for kids,but is not for serious users.

 

[TruPlaya187]

Yes stupid Amoled is wrong screen for serious devices like 1020.I had 920 and the diference is so so visible.Amoled colors is good for kids,but is not for serious users.

that's why when I've changed the Lumia profile, it changed a lot and now I appreciate it more and the photos on the screen is a lot better.

 

[AndrewL920]

If we can just turn off the "built-in jpeg processing" that would be the most innovative update Nokia will released.

 

[Live2Deliver]

If we can just turn off the "built-in jpeg processing" that would be the most innovative update Nokia will released.

Where have you been? Welcome back to earth anyway, we already have it. Its called RAW, or DNG.