02-08-2014 03:58 AM
46 12
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  1. amrut_m's Avatar
    its not because it has 38mp's,
    it is cause it has much better hardware and much better processing algorithms.
    in terms of camera dept Nokia is 4-5yrs ahead of the competition.

    OIS brought in 920 - LG following up the act.
    using 6 lens mechanism in 925 - Apple following it as 5 lens and using sapphire crystal.

    there are more things but then I'm at work
    02-07-2014 09:18 AM
  2. SwimSwim's Avatar
    Good for Apple. While they're cameras might not be the best, one thing I absolutely admire is what amazing results they produce without making the user get down and dirty (and how fast too, I always envy how my iPhone friends can repeatedly tap the shutter button to take photos [and with iOS7, they just tap and hold to take a high speed shutter of the scene]). And we mustn't forget that admittedly clever flash technology.

    So good work for Apple. But as others have said: without flash, the Lumia 1020 would kick-***. We also mustn't forget: the Lumia 1020 is meant for enthusiast photographers and up. Amateurs and novices aren't going to get the same results. Auto works, but with cameras of this tier (DSLR, I mean), you will only get GREAT results when you adjust the settings yourself.

    So auto will provide good results, above average when compared to others phones. But you only achieve the 1020's real potential when you take the time to get those settings just right.

    So in conclusion, for my mini essay: Apple and Nokia are, what I would consider, the mobile photography titans, but in their own way. Apple rules in the sense it creates above-average photos (but still not Nokia quality), without making the user have to put any thought into it. They can reliably produce great shots without even needing to know about shutter speed, exposure value, white balance, etc. Meanwhile, Nokia is king in true lowlight (I.E: no flash to help out), and in overall quality. However, for you to get such amazing results with a Nokia, you've got to work for it. Automatic will typically produce above average results (maybe not as good as Apple's automatic, however), but once the user goes manual, Nokia blows other smartphone cameras out the water.

    So yes, Apple and Nokia are the photography kings, they just have different ways of achieving it.
    amrut_m and MDak280 like this.
    02-07-2014 09:42 AM
  3. T Moore's Avatar
    With a flash you say?
    You don't even know what low light photography is !
    There have been comparisons all over the web and what you say is not correct.
    amrut_m and azcruz like this.
    02-07-2014 09:53 AM
  4. Miska Hietala's Avatar
    Would love to see comparison in low light photos without flash between lumia 925 and iphone 5s. There was a comparison between 1020, 925 and iphone 5s but havent seen one made after that..

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
    02-07-2014 10:05 AM
  5. Bahamen's Avatar
    One question, why wouldn't the 5S beat the 1020? Just because it has a 38mpx camera it doesn't make it the best.
    Is that the maximum extent of your understanding of photography?
    02-07-2014 10:05 AM
  6. anon(5650876)'s Avatar
    I took photo in a dark room.

    The XENON flash doesn't illuminate the photo much.

    Why???
    02-07-2014 10:32 AM
  7. Bahamen's Avatar
    sensor size don't affect DoF, aperture does. larger sensor size enables more light to be captured, of course having bigger pixel size (not count) is a plus too.
    Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography
    Live2Deliver likes this.
    02-07-2014 10:36 AM
  8. Bahamen's Avatar
    I took photo in a dark room.

    The XENON flash doesn't illuminate the photo much.

    Why???
    Flash will always illuminate a near object more strongly than distant objects. Thanks to the strength of xenon, the near objects will be very brightly lit. By prioritizing the nearer object, the camera will choose a very fast shutter speed in order to avoid over-exposing the near object. Distant objects will be correspondingly darker. If it had tried to illuminate the distant object by using slower shutter, this will result in the near object being totally over-exposed (totally white out). This is a common feature of xenon flash which is many orders of magnitude stronger than any LED flash.

    LED flash, being much weaker, means that the near object will not be sufficiently lit, therefore the camera will also use a slow shutter to allow more light in. As a side effect of this, the distant objects will be better lit than the one shot with a xenon flash.

    In the extreme case, when no flash is being used, the exposure will be more evenly spread, affected only by ambient source of light rather than being distorted by flash. This is one of the advantages of not using flash at all, and the 1020 (or the 92X series) truly excel in this area thanks to its OIS which allows for long exposure without too much motion blur.

    The main advantage of using xenon flash is that it allows you to use a very fast shutter speed (as explained above), therefore you can "freeze" a moving object, which is great for taking pictures of people. Try that with LED flash, it will fail miserably.
    Live2Deliver, GizmoEV and xumit like this.
    02-07-2014 10:45 AM
  9. Xellsama's Avatar
    Uh...like many have mentioned, when you turned on flash, it really isn't "low-light".

    The point of 1020, or actually, point of Nokia's low light photography for an average consumer is that your picture will look bright and great as long as you have a tiny big of light source somewhere in the environment. This is, for many people, to eliminate the discomfort (for the eyes of people getting photo taken), the embarrassment (you are in a classy and dim location and BAM, everyone know you just snapped a picture), and the ugly look people often get under flash(think of all those party photos you probably have taken where everyone just looked high).

    Apple approached the problem from a different angle. They tweaked their software to give a more pleasant look on photos under flash. This solves the technical problem of "ugly" photos, but doesn't deal with the inconvenience of the first two problems I mentioned.

    Nokia's approach assumes that you will not be in a pitch dark place (no light at all) taking photos most of the time. Apple assumes that everyone loves flash and flash photography is appropriate everywhere (but it's not, think of museums or galleries, where lights are too dim for iphones but flash is not allowed). When Nokia's assumption is incorrect, you can adjust by manually changing the settings, when Apple's assumption is incorrect, well you just have dim photos.

    Therefore, using flash, on default setting, 1020 might not be as accurate. However, 1020 will prevail in most other circumstances.
    GizmoEV and TheJoester09 like this.
    02-07-2014 11:02 AM
  10. Live2Deliver's Avatar
    I took photo in a dark room.

    The XENON flash doesn't illuminate the photo much.

    Why???
    If you didn't want to read everything in my previous post, here's a simple short explanation.

    The because of the xenon flash, shutter is programmed to limit to 1/50 on auto on our L1020. you can set it manually to override the exposure length.
    Within this short amount of time, the amount of light going into the sensor is not enough for a proper exposure even with flash. Of course ISO can go up to compensate but hey, you are shooting in full auto with those programmed rules. Check out the flash power inversely affected by distance square link in my previous post.

    Check and compare the EXIF data of your iPhone photo and Lumia 1020 photo. Post your photos with Shutter, ISO, Aperture, Flash data if you want others to know what you are asking
    02-07-2014 11:03 AM
  11. Live2Deliver's Avatar
    While that is true sensor size does not directly affect DoF.
    Bahamen likes this.
    02-07-2014 11:16 AM
  12. Bahamen's Avatar
    We also mustn't forget: the Lumia 1020 is meant for enthusiast photographers and up. Amateurs and novices aren't going to get the same results. Auto works, but with cameras of this tier (DSLR, I mean), you will only get GREAT results when you adjust the settings yourself.
    I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree that you can only get great results with manual setting on the 1020. And from the sample photos provided by the OP, I don't see anything that suggests any inherent superiority on Apple's part. The seemingly brighter LED flash is not due to any special trickery, it is purely because LED is FAR WEAKER than xenon which results in a more even exposure. It is well-known that xenon, being far stronger than LED flash (by several orders of magnitude) can result in darker background if the main subject is too near to the flash. I can't believe how a natural consequence of the LED's weakness can somehow be spun as cleverness on Apple's part.

    If you set the subject a little further away, then the xenon flash will still be able to illuminate it, while the LED flash will fail miserably. And if your subject is moving, the xenon flash will be able to freeze the motion while you have blurry mess on the LED flash. Those are the major advantages of xenon flash. If your main subject is near, and you still want to have good exposure of the background, suggest that you turn off the flash and let the OIS do its magic. In a dark environment, any camera will fire off its flash on auto mode, please don't blame Nokia's auto mode or tout the Apple's, both are working correctly as they should.

    Similarly, look at the photo of the sleeping cat. Both seem to have not-so-sharp background, but in reality, the 5S lack of sharpness is due to noise and grain. While the 1020's image is relatively clean (little noise) and the background only appear blurry thanks to it's shallow depth of field (something like bokeh effect) which is usually a sign of superior optics (larger lens aperture and larger sensor size).

    Like I said, nothing in those sample images suggest any superiority in the iPhone images.
    Last edited by Bahamen; 02-07-2014 at 11:47 AM.
    Live2Deliver likes this.
    02-07-2014 11:30 AM
  13. Bahamen's Avatar
    While that is true sensor size does not directly affect DoF.
    The field of view (or framing) also plays a role; but whilst the 1020's sensor is 4x the size of the 5s' sensor, its field of view is certainly not 4x larger. I'd say the slight difference in aperture has less to do with the big difference in depth of field, in the case of 1020 vs 5s. In fact, the 1020 has shallower depth of field compared to the 920 despite the slightly smaller aperture.
    02-07-2014 11:55 AM
  14. vlad0's Avatar
    In terms of how wide the lens is on those two.. its really not even close. Looking trough the iPhone 5/5s lens compared to the 808/1020 is like looking trough a peephole, specially during video.

    Here is my 808 and my iPhone 5 looking at the exact same scene, and I even set the 808 to 4:3 to be more "fair" to the iPhone.. you can see how much more information the 808 grabs compared to the iPhone in both axis.



    Here is a real life situation, which also shows the flash performance between the two.. now, how much better can the 5s really be ? I don't have one to test but I doubt its anywhere near the xenon.

    And look how much wider the Nokia is

    Nokia


    Apple
    02-07-2014 12:28 PM
  15. Live2Deliver's Avatar
    The field of view (or framing) also plays a role; but whilst the 1020's sensor is 4x the size of the 5s' sensor, its field of view is certainly not 4x larger. I'd say the slight difference in aperture has less to do with the big difference in depth of field, in the case of 1020 vs 5s. In fact, the 1020 has shallower depth of field compared to the 920 despite the slightly smaller aperture.
    DoF is affected by a lot of stuffs, there's a whole science behind it
    Depth of field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    you can have different DoF despite same or close f/stop. This is because DoF affected by aperture does not come with the change of f stop, in fact it is result of diameter of aperture pupil
    What is the relationship between aperture, focal length, focus distance and depth of field? - Quora
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_o...rture_diameter

    thus, different focal length EDIT:indirectly resulting from the different sensor size too does change some stuffs too
    3 ways to affect depth of field: free cheat sheet | Digital Camera World
    Last edited by Live2Deliver; 02-07-2014 at 01:43 PM.
    02-07-2014 12:35 PM
  16. Bahamen's Avatar
    That's a typical (embarrassing) indoor (not even extreme low light) shot from an iPhone...
    02-07-2014 12:56 PM
  17. vlad0's Avatar
    That's a typical (embarrassing) indoor (not even extreme low light) shot from an iPhone...
    Yes, that's why I am a little surprised at OPs situation.. unless the 5s is that much better than the 5 ..
    02-07-2014 01:51 PM
  18. Microsoftjunkie's Avatar
    i happen to have both those phones, so here's a comparison, full auto, flash/no flash, iPhone 5s, Lumia pro cam (5mpx) and WP stock cam (5mpx)
    https://drive.google.com/folderview?...UU&usp=sharing
    Seems like the ip5#s pictures are a little warm compared to the 1020. 1020 looks better, but both look good.
    02-07-2014 01:57 PM
  19. Microsoftjunkie's Avatar
    I don't even know why threads like this exists. Plenty of websites have done comparisons, most far better and detailed then most of us. 1020/1520 wins.
    02-07-2014 01:59 PM
  20. Live2Deliver's Avatar
    flash is a useful tool, but it is not a god's tool. Our built-in flash is terribly weak in photography terms but thanks to the manual control in our L1020 it still can be useful when used within its capabilities.

    There are many tricks photographers when using flash. One of the most common, simplest and easily works on our L1020 is called Slow Sync.
    In normal automatic circumstances, using flash will usually cause your foreground subject to be highlighted, but you will lose your background. Slow Sync enables your background to be captured while using flash to illuminate or highlight your foreground subjects. Refer to my sample photos to see the difference by using Slow Sync. http://sdrv.ms/NiF6dL

    As our L1020 do not have selection of flash mode available in DSLRs, to use slow sync we must manually set the shutter speed and ISO ourselves.
    1. First, take a no-flash photograph of the background in automatic to find out the shutter and ISO values needed for the right exposure. View the image and take note of the values the auto-exposure computer used.
    2. Then go into Pro Mode. Set the Shutter and ISO to the closest values used. Put flash to "ON" not "AUTO". This will force flash.
    3. Now with your Shutter and ISO set to the correct exposure to capture the background, and Flash forced to illuminate your foreground subject, you are ready to go.


    This method of flash is useful in the following scenario. You are watching a night soccer match in a stadium with your friend sitting in front of you. If you are using full auto flash a very common result is only your friend will be exposed, but the on-going soccer match is underexposed or lost in the background due to the fast automatic shutter speed. If you turns off flash, you will be able to capture the field but your friend will be in shadows.
    By using Slow Sync both the field and your friend will be exposed. A sample photo of slow sync. http://sdrv.ms/1bFpWaT

    Other applications / implications of slow sync
    Because slow sync in dark environment requires a long shutter exposure - to let in enough light to expose the background, any moving objects and camera movement will show motion blur / trail.
    The flash however, will freeze any moving objects within the illuminated area due to the short and powerful burst of light.
    Slow Sync, together with Rear Sync, are used by photographers to capture motion, and still able to freeze and capture the subject using flash.

    Despite of these, do keep in mind our flash is only so "powerful", and the illumination distance is only so "far". Subjects further away will not be reached by the flash.
    To use flash to the fullest and its limitations its is good to read up on how flash works.

    Now try this on iPhone 5S
    ypi likes this.
    02-08-2014 03:23 AM
  21. Crasstoe's Avatar
    Top both post. I've used this technique multiple times to illuminate an object whilst keeping the sky blue when shooting up, rather than have either or exposed.

    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 1020 using Tapatalk
    02-08-2014 03:58 AM
46 12

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