06-09-2014 07:59 PM
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  1. vlad0's Avatar
    I think we should look at what Nokia's imaging engineers have said they might look into for the future of their cameras if we want to get an idea of what might be coming our way.. its far fetched, but still way better than all the guess work that's been going around.

    From here: http://www.imagesensors.org/Past%20W...1-Alakarhu.pdf

    Nokia: "The resolution of future cameras can be extremely high. 808 PureView uses 1.4μm pixel size, 1.1μm is already in mass production, and 0.9μm in the horizon [10]."

    Speculation: So, we could see even higher resolutions.. maybe into the 60-80Mpix range at similar sensor sizes like the ones found in the 808/1020, or something along the lines.

    Also, they already took the 1.1 micron step with the 1020, its just that they kept the exact same megapixel count because they had to use a smaller sensor. My guess is that if they could've used the same sized sensor as the 808, the pixel count would've gone over 50Mpix

    Nokia: "The pixels also need to have extremely well handled crosstalk. For example DTI technology [9] can provide perfect electrical isolation between the pixels."

    Speculation: This is very important for BSI sensors, and thus far they haven't figured out how to isolate those 1.1 micron pixels very well. Just look at any samples from Sony Z1/Z2 and you will see it.

    The 808 has very low cross talk overall, but that's mainly because it uses an FSI sensor. In front-illuminated (FSI) sensors, fill-factor keeps going down with pixel shrinkage, meaning that they collect less light the smaller they get, which is why if they want to use smaller pixels they have to go BSI.

    Here is an example of what I think shows decent (low) cross talk. Small/fine dark lines on a white background usually shows nicely.



    100%


    as you can see, the level of detail is amazing.. especially considering the size of the camera module it came from. This can rival any P&S camera currently on sale, including the RX100. Most other smartphones make a complete mess out of tine details like that..

    I can't find anything on DTI , but its obviously something that can eliminate crosstalk. I found this

    Diffusion Tensor Imaging (DTI) - Fiber Tracking - Imagilys

    but I am not sure if its related in any way.

    Nokia: "Looking further in to the future, we can go to completely different type of approaches, where the solid state imager can start to behave more like an analog film"

    Speculation: luckily there is a reference for that one

    "E. Fossum, “Gigapixel Digital Film Sensor (DFS)
    Proposal” in Proc. 2005 International Image Sensor
    Workshop"

    A quick search showed this: https://www.google.com/patents/US8420996

    "The exemplary embodiments of this invention relate to digital camera light sensor technologies, and more specifically to the binary type sensor (“receptor”) with potentially a very high count of pixels (“bit elements”), possibly over 1 billion (“giga”, 1109)."

    So in other words they could be looking into some crazy resolutions for their future cameras.

    When talking about oversampling itself:

    Nokia: "It also creates an interesting opportunities for utilizing the pixels in new ways, such as single frame HDR, phase detection for faster autofocus, or spectral sensing."

    Speculation: Single frame HDR sounds really exciting. My guess is that there will be enough available pixels from a single frame for the system to gather enough information for a proper HDR. I am not sure how the modern phones do HDR (iPhone 5s, gs5, etc.) but it might be happening already, or they might still be stiching 3-4 photos together in real time.

    Phase detection is already happening

    Falk Lumo: Comment: Why the new "Dual Pixel AF" will transform the photo industry

    but not in smartphones, so we might expect to see it trickle down to smartphone cameras soon.. which would be awesome.

    Spectral sensing is probably this: Multispectral image - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So I hope we see some of that in the next camera flagship..
    Last edited by vlad0; 05-12-2014 at 01:32 PM.
    buxz777, Bahamen, a5cent and 4 others like this.
    05-12-2014 01:12 PM
  2. Bahamen's Avatar
    Single frame HDR sounds really exciting. My guess is that there will be enough available pixels from a single frame for the system to gather enough information for a proper HDR. I am not sure how the modern phones do HDR (iPhone 5s, gs5, etc.) but it might be happening already, or they might still be stiching 3-4 photos together in real time.
    I believe all existing implementations of single exposure HDR is done through software, where the image is under-exposed and shadows are then lifted, similar to what you can achieve in post-editing. Samsung S5's is done in a more clever way where the effect can be seen in the viewfinder even before the shot is taken, but I believe the concept is the same. This is not so ideal compared to traditional HDR (layering multiple frames taken at different exposures), and the shadow areas will have more noise.
    05-13-2014 12:24 PM
  3. Beijendorf's Avatar
    That's all really great, Vlad. But what you're talking about is technological progress rather than a next step in mobile imaging technology. Imagine instead what the people over at Nokia Advanced Technologies are working on in conjunction with Pelican Imaging and the likes.

    You're describing an extraordinary megapixel count in an 808/1020 sensor size. That's exactly what's needed for plenoptic cameras in order to achieve a high-resolution output! Perhaps the rumour Daniel heard about the dual-lens smartphone was in fact a multi-lens smartphone. All the official statements from Nokia and Pelican Imaging teases about their approaching release.

    Having more than one lens can also work wonders on eliminating motion blurring and other noise, so perhaps Nokia is stepping the game up by having two 41 MP PureView sensors in one phone for cross-referencing and computational imaging improvements. I feel like all the detail in the 808/1020 images suffer to some extent from blurring unless taken on a tripod, so that improvement is sorely needed.
    05-13-2014 05:47 PM
  4. Extraneus's Avatar
    Why? It's the sensor size that determines the bulk of the camera, not the mp count. Might as well take the high mp count and resulting pureview sampling, which did Wonders for the Picture sof the 808... I'd rather take a great photo every second than 5 average photos every second.
    rQvsnaps and greynightshirt like this.
    05-15-2014 02:38 AM
  5. Beijendorf's Avatar
    I'm not sure if your response was to me or Vlad, Extraneus.
    Regarding the thickness of the camera module, this is where Pelican Imaging has a strong advantage over the legacy-type camera modules. Having a large sensor doesn't necessarily make the module any thicker since each of the 16 microlenses use a small part of the sensor. It's like having lots of small sensors. In their proof-of-concept module each microlens captures a 0.75 MP image on the sensor. The 16 images are then computed together to form an 8 MP output image. Although their technical publications doesn't say the exact number, the back sensor is probably somewhere around or above 12-14 MP (16 lenses at 1000x750 resolution).

    Now in order to have a plenoptic camera with the capabilities of the 1020 you'd need a rather high-resolution sensor (about 70-80 MP). So while legacy cameras may not need 41+ MP, a plenoptic camera certainly does. The more megapixels it has to work with when cross-referencing the input images, the better. And this is without adding massive thickness to the camera module.

    Plenoptic camera lens: http://photonicspatents.files.wordpr...4491_fig2b.jpg

    Camera module thickness mock-up: https://gigaom2.files.wordpress.com/...0&h=200&crop=1

    Technical paper: Pelican Imaging: A Smart Camera for Your Smartphone. Technology info and SIGGRAPH paper and video .
    vlad0 likes this.
    05-15-2014 06:58 AM
  6. menghai's Avatar
    An updated 1020 with some newer (but not groundbreaking) internal specs would be my phone for many years, if and when they release it.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
    05-21-2014 09:21 PM
  7. amrut_m's Avatar
    https://twitter.com/tomwarren has just tweeted something for those who are waiting for a 1020 successor or those who are interested in the 1020 successor

    tom-warr.png

    Many would be annoyed, many would want to see what next imaging flagship offers.
    What are your views on this news
    Beijendorf likes this.
    06-05-2014 08:21 AM
  8. vlad0's Avatar
    Thanks for the info Beijendorf .. do we have any samples from Pelican anywhere on the web ? I would love to see how this translates in real world results. Its sounds promising.. hopefully we can see it in a phone in the next 2-3 years.

    edit. I saw the TIFF sample in their paper... not impressed but its early dev stage



    They are going to have a hard time with artifacts/parallax..

    https://twitter.com/tomwarren has just tweeted something for those who are waiting for a 1020 successor or those who are interested in the 1020 successor

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tom warr.png 
Views:	114 
Size:	43.6 KB 
ID:	68402

    Many would be annoyed, many would want to see what next imaging flagship offers.
    What are your views on this news
    If that doesn't result in them using a smaller sensor, I am all for it... if they do use a smaller sensor, let's hope there some other "magic" going on because otherwise they won't be able to match the previous gen in terms of IQ>
    Last edited by vlad0; 06-05-2014 at 01:03 PM.
    Beijendorf likes this.
    06-05-2014 12:31 PM
  9. antiochian2010's Avatar
    I'd be happy with presets that stick and with an ND Filter
    06-05-2014 02:27 PM
  10. Beijendorf's Avatar
    Thanks for the info Beijendorf .. do we have any samples from Pelican anywhere on the web ? I would love to see how this translates in real world results. Its sounds promising.. hopefully we can see it in a phone in the next 2-3 years.

    edit. I saw the TIFF sample in their paper... not impressed but its early dev stage

    [Image]

    They are going to have a hard time with artifacts/parallax..
    The images from Pelican Imaging themselves seem to be rather scarce, but that's to be expected. There are a couple on the site I linked though, if you scroll down below the technical paper.
    In early 2013, Nokia guessed at a release of a Pelican Imaging module smartphone this year. Pelican Imaging themselves recently said they are ready for camera release early 2015. So you won't have to wait 2-3 years, but there still seems to be some things to iron out before release.

    As for the parallax, I wouldn't worry. What Pelican Imaging does best is software, so they use the parallax to their advantage in order to generate 3D-maps. Unlike Samsung, companies like Apple and Nokia aren't known for releasing products that aren't ready for market, so if they release a Pelican Imaging camera it's because it can outperform their legacy Zeiss modules.

    If that doesn't result in them using a smaller sensor, I am all for it... if they do use a smaller sensor, let's hope there some other "magic" going on because otherwise they won't be able to match the previous gen in terms of IQ>
    Agreed. I thought 41 MP was overdoing it a bit, even though the oversampling was great. If a plenoptic camera (dual-lens or Pelican module) is the next goal over at Nokia then I'd expect it to come with either a focal zoom lens, thus removing the need for digital zoom, or simply have a high-performing array camera with a lower pixel output but vastly increased low-light performance and reduced noise.
    06-05-2014 04:35 PM
  11. amrut_m's Avatar
    If they introduce less megapixel count with same or bigger sensor, with better imaging capabilities, It will be a great Camera Phone.
    I think the foremost thing Nokia will be trying to counter is the shot to shot times, the 1020 had bad views on the shot to shot times, 41 mp sensor can be the reason they are ditching it for lesser megapixel count.

    Few days back NextLeaks had twitted "Lumia 1820 = 1030: 5.2'' QHD /QSD805/3GB RAM/3400mAh/Lytrocamera and Visio pureview cam"
    https://twitter.com/@nextleaks

    1030 mite be releasing with the WP 8.1 GDR 1 update or GDR 2,with HTC releasing same phone like HTC One (M8) which will need some new hardware and software.
    06-06-2014 01:55 AM
  12. buxz777's Avatar
    for me personally the shot to shot times can be improved just by using the snapdragon 805 chipset , its a beast , it supports raw images up to 55mp , I think it handles more pixels processing then the 808s processing chip so it should at least be able to match the 808 shot to shot time which was never seen as a problem by anyone??

    I think the reduced pixel count could be aiming for even better night time shots , ie keep the sensor the same size and it will improve the size of the pixels , the pixels were also a little smaller on the 1020 due to the sensor size being smaller then the 808s , so perhaps by doing this they are trying to get back to 808 type pixels with a 1020 size sensor??

    the negative thing with this is , shoot now crop later , I love using it to reframe my shots and I would have thought by lowering the megapixel count we may indeed loose zoom or as much zoom?? that would be a bit of a bummer for me personally but id have to wait to see what made up for this , better pic quality etc

    here is some info on the 805 some might find interesting AnandTech | Qualcomm Snapdragon 805 Performance Preview





    one interesting thing is nokia are due the 1020 upgrade and if they time it right they could actually be one of the 1st to the market with the 805 soc in place ;-) how different would that be to how the hardware has been ;-) wouldn't it be great too see nokias flagship camera device to be the 1st device running the 805 ;-)
    06-06-2014 04:37 AM
  13. vlad0's Avatar
    808 shot to shot time which was never seen as a problem by anyone??
    Nah, its still slow compared to the 5s and some newer droids.. faster than the 1020

    The 805 SoC is great for high pixel density cameras,, now all we need is the imaging sensors capable of such high resolutions..
    06-09-2014 02:53 PM
  14. jpal12's Avatar
    McLaren will be the successor to the lumia 1020.
    06-09-2014 03:13 PM
  15. Beijendorf's Avatar
    Nah, its still slow compared to the 5s and some newer droids.. faster than the 1020

    The 805 SoC is great for high pixel density cameras,, now all we need is the imaging sensors capable of such high resolutions..
    I get the feeling all I've talked about in this thread concern plenoptic cameras, but...

    It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the 55 MP capacity on the S805 is just a means of future-proofing the SoC. What they've truly have been pioneering - and still work on - in the S805 SoC is the dual-channel ISP. So the mentions we've heard of more devices being on the way with dual camera modules may not be completely off.
    06-09-2014 06:54 PM
  16. David Lohrentz's Avatar
    Clearly the goal is to take the best possible photos with a good smartphone, a good battery life, a good screen and and a good form factor. If they can improve the photo quality with 1MP, that is fine by me.
    06-09-2014 07:59 PM
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