Any news about a Lumia 1020 successor?
- Thread starter Mech0z
- Start date
Even with a great sucker photopunch, if it's android, it's dead-before-arrival for me, and won't even get on the ring with the 1020. And a company that starts out with a competition for people who will smash their phones, even if it has technique and attitude, has no TASTE.
yep they could of asked for people to post who would be willing to donate their high end smartphone to someone in a third world country ........ then chose people out of a hat raffle style ....... imagine the press that would have got them and much better to the world then getting people to smash up high end tech :-/
So Nokia 808 released july 2012
Lumia 1020 around septemper 2013
So around 1 year and 3 month between those, and those where on 2 different OS', so should be easier this time around
The Lumia 1020 was announced in July 2013, so if we are lucky we might see one around christmas time
Lumia 1020 around septemper 2013
So around 1 year and 3 month between those, and those where on 2 different OS', so should be easier this time around
The Lumia 1020 was announced in July 2013, so if we are lucky we might see one around christmas time
sumton
New member
Beijendorf
New member
Evleaks mentioned a 1020 successor was in the works back in November 2013.
https://twitter.com/evleaks/status/401101953200963585
Add to that the rumour from Daniel Rubino about a dual-lens smartphone from Nokia being aimed at Q4 2014 or Q1 2015.
Sorry, there is no Nokia 'Lumia 1820' | Windows Phone Central
Finally, there's mentions from Pelican Imaging that their technology will be in a smartphone by 2014, where Nokia is their main partner.
Apple Reportedly Set To Buy 3D Sensing Company As It Prepares For New Generation of Devices That Can 'See' - Forbes
So there's a few theories as to what a dual-lens/dual-sensor imaging flagship from Nokia would mean:
1) Combine a Pelican array camera with a 20-40 MP camera and you have high-resolution images, depth mapping and no more need for autofocus along with all the other advantages of computational photography.
2) Go the Toshiba way by combining two sensors into a super-resolution image (2 x 5 MP sensors rendering 13 MP images). Combining two 41 MP sensors would render some 100 MP images with computational improvements to give better low-light performance, less noise, etc.
Two 1/4 inch 5M pixel 1.4 µm CMOS image sensors: TCM9518MD | Sensors | TOSHIBA Semiconductor & Storage Products Company
3) Do what Corephotonics have done and combine two lenses of different focal lengths (Corephotonics has one "wide-angle" lens and one with a permanent 3x zoom). This way you have optical zoom without a thick zoom-lens. The images here are also cross-referenced with each other for reduced noise, increased low-light performance and increased resolution.
Corephotonics | Technologies
Edit: Come to think of it, they could always have a Pelican Imaging array camera as a "wide-angle" sensor to capture everything in focus with low noise and great low-light performance, and then add on a 20 MP sensor next to it with a 5X focal zoom like Corephotonics to get that true lossless zoom.
Which one would you rather see in a 1030?
https://twitter.com/evleaks/status/401101953200963585
Add to that the rumour from Daniel Rubino about a dual-lens smartphone from Nokia being aimed at Q4 2014 or Q1 2015.
Sorry, there is no Nokia 'Lumia 1820' | Windows Phone Central
Finally, there's mentions from Pelican Imaging that their technology will be in a smartphone by 2014, where Nokia is their main partner.
Apple Reportedly Set To Buy 3D Sensing Company As It Prepares For New Generation of Devices That Can 'See' - Forbes
So there's a few theories as to what a dual-lens/dual-sensor imaging flagship from Nokia would mean:
1) Combine a Pelican array camera with a 20-40 MP camera and you have high-resolution images, depth mapping and no more need for autofocus along with all the other advantages of computational photography.
2) Go the Toshiba way by combining two sensors into a super-resolution image (2 x 5 MP sensors rendering 13 MP images). Combining two 41 MP sensors would render some 100 MP images with computational improvements to give better low-light performance, less noise, etc.
Two 1/4 inch 5M pixel 1.4 µm CMOS image sensors: TCM9518MD | Sensors | TOSHIBA Semiconductor & Storage Products Company
3) Do what Corephotonics have done and combine two lenses of different focal lengths (Corephotonics has one "wide-angle" lens and one with a permanent 3x zoom). This way you have optical zoom without a thick zoom-lens. The images here are also cross-referenced with each other for reduced noise, increased low-light performance and increased resolution.
Corephotonics | Technologies
Edit: Come to think of it, they could always have a Pelican Imaging array camera as a "wide-angle" sensor to capture everything in focus with low noise and great low-light performance, and then add on a 20 MP sensor next to it with a 5X focal zoom like Corephotonics to get that true lossless zoom.
Which one would you rather see in a 1030?
Last edited:
DennisvdG
New member
DennisvdG
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vlad0
New member
I think we should look at what Nokia's imaging engineers have said they might look into for the future of their cameras if we want to get an idea of what might be coming our way.. its far fetched, but still way better than all the guess work that's been going around.
From here: http://www.imagesensors.org/Past Workshops/2013 Workshop/2013 Papers/13-1_071-Alakarhu.pdf
Nokia: "The resolution of future cameras can be extremely high. 808 PureView uses 1.4μm pixel size, 1.1μm is already in mass production, and 0.9μm in the horizon [10]."
Speculation: So, we could see even higher resolutions.. maybe into the 60-80Mpix range at similar sensor sizes like the ones found in the 808/1020, or something along the lines.
Also, they already took the 1.1 micron step with the 1020, its just that they kept the exact same megapixel count because they had to use a smaller sensor. My guess is that if they could've used the same sized sensor as the 808, the pixel count would've gone over 50Mpix
Nokia: "The pixels also need to have extremely well handled crosstalk. For example DTI technology [9] can provide perfect electrical isolation between the pixels."
Speculation: This is very important for BSI sensors, and thus far they haven't figured out how to isolate those 1.1 micron pixels very well. Just look at any samples from Sony Z1/Z2 and you will see it.
The 808 has very low cross talk overall, but that's mainly because it uses an FSI sensor. In front-illuminated (FSI) sensors, fill-factor keeps going down with pixel shrinkage, meaning that they collect less light the smaller they get, which is why if they want to use smaller pixels they have to go BSI.
Here is an example of what I think shows decent (low) cross talk. Small/fine dark lines on a white background usually shows nicely.
100%
as you can see, the level of detail is amazing.. especially considering the size of the camera module it came from. This can rival any P&S camera currently on sale, including the RX100. Most other smartphones make a complete mess out of tine details like that..
I can't find anything on DTI , but its obviously something that can eliminate crosstalk. I found this
Diffusion Tensor Imaging (DTI) - Fiber Tracking - Imagilys
but I am not sure if its related in any way.
Nokia: "Looking further in to the future, we can go to completely different type of approaches, where the solid state imager can start to behave more like an analog film"
Speculation: luckily there is a reference for that one
"E. Fossum, “Gigapixel Digital Film Sensor (DFS)
Proposal” in Proc. 2005 International Image Sensor
Workshop"
A quick search showed this: https://www.google.com/patents/US8420996
"The exemplary embodiments of this invention relate to digital camera light sensor technologies, and more specifically to the binary type sensor (“receptor”) with potentially a very high count of pixels (“bit elements”), possibly over 1 billion (“giga”, 1?109)."
So in other words they could be looking into some crazy resolutions for their future cameras.
When talking about oversampling itself:
Nokia: "It also creates an interesting opportunities for utilizing the pixels in new ways, such as single frame HDR, phase detection for faster autofocus, or spectral sensing."
Speculation: Single frame HDR sounds really exciting. My guess is that there will be enough available pixels from a single frame for the system to gather enough information for a proper HDR. I am not sure how the modern phones do HDR (iPhone 5s, gs5, etc.) but it might be happening already, or they might still be stiching 3-4 photos together in real time.
Phase detection is already happening
Falk Lumo: Comment: Why the new "Dual Pixel AF" will transform the photo industry
but not in smartphones, so we might expect to see it trickle down to smartphone cameras soon.. which would be awesome.
Spectral sensing is probably this: Multispectral image - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So I hope we see some of that in the next camera flagship..
From here: http://www.imagesensors.org/Past Workshops/2013 Workshop/2013 Papers/13-1_071-Alakarhu.pdf
Nokia: "The resolution of future cameras can be extremely high. 808 PureView uses 1.4μm pixel size, 1.1μm is already in mass production, and 0.9μm in the horizon [10]."
Speculation: So, we could see even higher resolutions.. maybe into the 60-80Mpix range at similar sensor sizes like the ones found in the 808/1020, or something along the lines.
Also, they already took the 1.1 micron step with the 1020, its just that they kept the exact same megapixel count because they had to use a smaller sensor. My guess is that if they could've used the same sized sensor as the 808, the pixel count would've gone over 50Mpix
Nokia: "The pixels also need to have extremely well handled crosstalk. For example DTI technology [9] can provide perfect electrical isolation between the pixels."
Speculation: This is very important for BSI sensors, and thus far they haven't figured out how to isolate those 1.1 micron pixels very well. Just look at any samples from Sony Z1/Z2 and you will see it.
The 808 has very low cross talk overall, but that's mainly because it uses an FSI sensor. In front-illuminated (FSI) sensors, fill-factor keeps going down with pixel shrinkage, meaning that they collect less light the smaller they get, which is why if they want to use smaller pixels they have to go BSI.
Here is an example of what I think shows decent (low) cross talk. Small/fine dark lines on a white background usually shows nicely.
100%
as you can see, the level of detail is amazing.. especially considering the size of the camera module it came from. This can rival any P&S camera currently on sale, including the RX100. Most other smartphones make a complete mess out of tine details like that..
I can't find anything on DTI , but its obviously something that can eliminate crosstalk. I found this
Diffusion Tensor Imaging (DTI) - Fiber Tracking - Imagilys
but I am not sure if its related in any way.
Nokia: "Looking further in to the future, we can go to completely different type of approaches, where the solid state imager can start to behave more like an analog film"
Speculation: luckily there is a reference for that one
"E. Fossum, “Gigapixel Digital Film Sensor (DFS)
Proposal” in Proc. 2005 International Image Sensor
Workshop"
A quick search showed this: https://www.google.com/patents/US8420996
"The exemplary embodiments of this invention relate to digital camera light sensor technologies, and more specifically to the binary type sensor (“receptor”) with potentially a very high count of pixels (“bit elements”), possibly over 1 billion (“giga”, 1?109)."
So in other words they could be looking into some crazy resolutions for their future cameras.
When talking about oversampling itself:
Nokia: "It also creates an interesting opportunities for utilizing the pixels in new ways, such as single frame HDR, phase detection for faster autofocus, or spectral sensing."
Speculation: Single frame HDR sounds really exciting. My guess is that there will be enough available pixels from a single frame for the system to gather enough information for a proper HDR. I am not sure how the modern phones do HDR (iPhone 5s, gs5, etc.) but it might be happening already, or they might still be stiching 3-4 photos together in real time.
Phase detection is already happening
Falk Lumo: Comment: Why the new "Dual Pixel AF" will transform the photo industry
but not in smartphones, so we might expect to see it trickle down to smartphone cameras soon.. which would be awesome.
Spectral sensing is probably this: Multispectral image - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So I hope we see some of that in the next camera flagship..
Last edited:
I believe all existing implementations of single exposure HDR is done through software, where the image is under-exposed and shadows are then lifted, similar to what you can achieve in post-editing. Samsung S5's is done in a more clever way where the effect can be seen in the viewfinder even before the shot is taken, but I believe the concept is the same. This is not so ideal compared to traditional HDR (layering multiple frames taken at different exposures), and the shadow areas will have more noise.
Beijendorf
New member
That's all really great, Vlad. But what you're talking about is technological progress rather than a next step in mobile imaging technology. Imagine instead what the people over at Nokia Advanced Technologies are working on in conjunction with Pelican Imaging and the likes.
You're describing an extraordinary megapixel count in an 808/1020 sensor size. That's exactly what's needed for plenoptic cameras in order to achieve a high-resolution output! Perhaps the rumour Daniel heard about the dual-lens smartphone was in fact a multi-lens smartphone. All the official statements from Nokia and Pelican Imaging teases about their approaching release.
Having more than one lens can also work wonders on eliminating motion blurring and other noise, so perhaps Nokia is stepping the game up by having two 41 MP PureView sensors in one phone for cross-referencing and computational imaging improvements. I feel like all the detail in the 808/1020 images suffer to some extent from blurring unless taken on a tripod, so that improvement is sorely needed.
You're describing an extraordinary megapixel count in an 808/1020 sensor size. That's exactly what's needed for plenoptic cameras in order to achieve a high-resolution output! Perhaps the rumour Daniel heard about the dual-lens smartphone was in fact a multi-lens smartphone. All the official statements from Nokia and Pelican Imaging teases about their approaching release.
Having more than one lens can also work wonders on eliminating motion blurring and other noise, so perhaps Nokia is stepping the game up by having two 41 MP PureView sensors in one phone for cross-referencing and computational imaging improvements. I feel like all the detail in the 808/1020 images suffer to some extent from blurring unless taken on a tripod, so that improvement is sorely needed.
Extraneus
New member
Why? It's the sensor size that determines the bulk of the camera, not the mp count. Might as well take the high mp count and resulting pureview sampling, which did Wonders for the Picture sof the 808... I'd rather take a great photo every second than 5 average photos every second.
Beijendorf
New member
I'm not sure if your response was to me or Vlad, Extraneus.
Regarding the thickness of the camera module, this is where Pelican Imaging has a strong advantage over the legacy-type camera modules. Having a large sensor doesn't necessarily make the module any thicker since each of the 16 microlenses use a small part of the sensor. It's like having lots of small sensors. In their proof-of-concept module each microlens captures a 0.75 MP image on the sensor. The 16 images are then computed together to form an 8 MP output image. Although their technical publications doesn't say the exact number, the back sensor is probably somewhere around or above 12-14 MP (16 lenses at 1000x750 resolution).
Now in order to have a plenoptic camera with the capabilities of the 1020 you'd need a rather high-resolution sensor (about 70-80 MP). So while legacy cameras may not need 41+ MP, a plenoptic camera certainly does. The more megapixels it has to work with when cross-referencing the input images, the better. And this is without adding massive thickness to the camera module.
Plenoptic camera lens: http://photonicspatents.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/us8514491_fig2b.jpg
Camera module thickness mock-up: https://gigaom2.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/pelican-array-camera.jpg?w=300&h=200&crop=1
Technical paper: Pelican Imaging: A Smart Camera for Your Smartphone. Technology info and SIGGRAPH paper and video .
Regarding the thickness of the camera module, this is where Pelican Imaging has a strong advantage over the legacy-type camera modules. Having a large sensor doesn't necessarily make the module any thicker since each of the 16 microlenses use a small part of the sensor. It's like having lots of small sensors. In their proof-of-concept module each microlens captures a 0.75 MP image on the sensor. The 16 images are then computed together to form an 8 MP output image. Although their technical publications doesn't say the exact number, the back sensor is probably somewhere around or above 12-14 MP (16 lenses at 1000x750 resolution).
Now in order to have a plenoptic camera with the capabilities of the 1020 you'd need a rather high-resolution sensor (about 70-80 MP). So while legacy cameras may not need 41+ MP, a plenoptic camera certainly does. The more megapixels it has to work with when cross-referencing the input images, the better. And this is without adding massive thickness to the camera module.
Plenoptic camera lens: http://photonicspatents.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/us8514491_fig2b.jpg
Camera module thickness mock-up: https://gigaom2.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/pelican-array-camera.jpg?w=300&h=200&crop=1
Technical paper: Pelican Imaging: A Smart Camera for Your Smartphone. Technology info and SIGGRAPH paper and video .
An updated 1020 with some newer (but not groundbreaking) internal specs would be my phone for many years, if and when they release it.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
Sent from my SCH-I535 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
amrut_m
New member
https://twitter.com/tomwarren has just tweeted something for those who are waiting for a 1020 successor or those who are interested in the 1020 successor :wink:
Many would be annoyed, many would want to see what next imaging flagship offers.
What are your views on this news
Many would be annoyed, many would want to see what next imaging flagship offers.
What are your views on this news
vlad0
New member
Thanks for the info Beijendorf .. do we have any samples from Pelican anywhere on the web ? I would love to see how this translates in real world results. Its sounds promising.. hopefully we can see it in a phone in the next 2-3 years.
edit. I saw the TIFF sample in their paper... not impressed but its early dev stage
They are going to have a hard time with artifacts/parallax..
If that doesn't result in them using a smaller sensor, I am all for it... if they do use a smaller sensor, let's hope there some other "magic" going on because otherwise they won't be able to match the previous gen in terms of IQ>
edit. I saw the TIFF sample in their paper... not impressed but its early dev stage
They are going to have a hard time with artifacts/parallax..
If that doesn't result in them using a smaller sensor, I am all for it... if they do use a smaller sensor, let's hope there some other "magic" going on because otherwise they won't be able to match the previous gen in terms of IQ>
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antiochian2010
New member
Beijendorf
New member
The images from Pelican Imaging themselves seem to be rather scarce, but that's to be expected. There are a couple on the site I linked though, if you scroll down below the technical paper.
In early 2013, Nokia guessed at a release of a Pelican Imaging module smartphone this year. Pelican Imaging themselves recently said they are ready for camera release early 2015. So you won't have to wait 2-3 years, but there still seems to be some things to iron out before release.
As for the parallax, I wouldn't worry. What Pelican Imaging does best is software, so they use the parallax to their advantage in order to generate 3D-maps. Unlike Samsung, companies like Apple and Nokia aren't known for releasing products that aren't ready for market, so if they release a Pelican Imaging camera it's because it can outperform their legacy Zeiss modules.
Agreed. I thought 41 MP was overdoing it a bit, even though the oversampling was great. If a plenoptic camera (dual-lens or Pelican module) is the next goal over at Nokia then I'd expect it to come with either a focal zoom lens, thus removing the need for digital zoom, or simply have a high-performing array camera with a lower pixel output but vastly increased low-light performance and reduced noise.
amrut_m
New member
If they introduce less megapixel count with same or bigger sensor, with better imaging capabilities, It will be a great Camera Phone.
I think the foremost thing Nokia will be trying to counter is the shot to shot times, the 1020 had bad views on the shot to shot times, 41 mp sensor can be the reason they are ditching it for lesser megapixel count.
Few days back NextLeaks had twitted "Lumia 1820 = 1030: 5.2'' QHD /QSD805/3GB RAM/3400mAh/Lytrocamera and Visio pureview cam"
https://twitter.com/@nextleaks
1030 mite be releasing with the WP 8.1 GDR 1 update or GDR 2,with HTC releasing same phone like HTC One (M8) which will need some new hardware and software.
I think the foremost thing Nokia will be trying to counter is the shot to shot times, the 1020 had bad views on the shot to shot times, 41 mp sensor can be the reason they are ditching it for lesser megapixel count.
Few days back NextLeaks had twitted "Lumia 1820 = 1030: 5.2'' QHD /QSD805/3GB RAM/3400mAh/Lytrocamera and Visio pureview cam"
https://twitter.com/@nextleaks
1030 mite be releasing with the WP 8.1 GDR 1 update or GDR 2,with HTC releasing same phone like HTC One (M8) which will need some new hardware and software.
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