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  1. Kevin Hill2's Avatar
    How are they cheating you? They do not have to give you new updates, know where does it say that when you buy a new phone you will get all the new updates that come out for the phones OS. If all they where worried about is profit, none of them would give you updates they would make it so you would have to buy a new phone to get all the new and great stuff. You must have thought your phone was great when you bought it, i'm sure it is still great if it does not get Denim, blue jean or the new purple people eater update for free.
    antiochian2010 and Didier3001 like this.
    09-08-2014 12:42 PM
  2. theefman's Avatar
    No, more like people wanted an epic photo talking phone before the latest tech was out. Enjoy the beta phone, we'll make a better one soon.
    Funny, they were able to make an even better one in the 808 with even older hardware and an even older OS. Only thing that held the 1020 back from being on par with the 808 was the immature WP platform so if anything was beta it wasnt the 1020 hardware or people's expectations, it was Microsoft's typically stupid and slow updates to the OS to support better hardware.
    antiochian2010 likes this.
    09-08-2014 12:43 PM
  3. TechFreak1's Avatar
    L 1020 when introduced was costliest phone... Even today on many sites it's costliest of all... WHAT'S WRONG IF BUYERS EXPECT LONGER SUPPORT? But most WPC articles suggests we won't get DENIM... F**** MSFT ... it's like android kicking HTC ONE or Sansung S5 out... If LUMIA 1020 after spending 1000 US dollars (55k INR then) , deprive us I'd denim, what's point in remaining brand loyal? Thanks WPC for guiding us... XIOMI, here I come..
    WPC articles saying or suggesting the 1020 won't get Denim?

    Also your Thread title doesn't make much sense either as it reads "Microsoft cheating L1020 owners by giving DENIM UPDATE".. (guessing you meant "Not Giving" ??)

    Lend me some of that stuff your smoking, sounds like good stuff /Sarcasm
    09-08-2014 12:48 PM
  4. T Moore's Avatar
    If you don't have the hardware to support new features that is the way it goes.
    09-08-2014 12:57 PM
  5. trainplane's Avatar
    Isn't that exactly what I said?

    The L830 supports the moment capture feature, "albeit at a lower resolution". According to Daniel's article, that would be 1080p instead of 2160p (a.k.a. 4k).

    Again, my point was that if CPU processing power were the problem, the L1020 could just support it the same way the L830 does, by using a lower resolution. That just isn't the problem. Microsoft has pretty much explained it at this point, but once again, tech journalism lacks the technical background to understand and correctly interpret the message.
    The 1020 has a larger sensor and needs to process many more pixels so it still might be a combination of the SOC and much more complicated image requirement that is preventing these features. Remember that the 1020 required special tuning to the SOC.

    As for the question in general, the S4 is a Q1 2012 SOC even though the 1020 was released in Q3 2013. I knew that coming in and as a 1020 owner, I don't have expectations for all the latest features, even camera related ones. You buy the phone for the features it has at the time you bought it, not the features it might have. I don't feel cheated.

    Looking forward to their next large sensor camera though. 1030/1040 or whatever they call it.
    Didier3001 likes this.
    09-08-2014 02:49 PM
  6. Donny James's Avatar
    What's missing is major... Hey Cortana...
    You need to educate yourself more on processors. Only the Snapdragon 800+ processors can do this. When the 1020 launched I don't even think the 800 was out yet. My point is when you educate your self about stuff you less likely to have this kind of reaction to news. Read this.

    Lumia Denim and Lumia Camera for Nokia Lumia 1020 : My Nokia Blog
    antiochian2010 likes this.
    09-08-2014 03:32 PM
  7. Didier3001's Avatar
    The L1020 will get Denim...but it will be as if it didn't, just like Cyan. Microsoft has abandoned ALL hardware that wasn't released for sale by Microsoft Mobile and the 1520 because they couldn't come up with the hardware excuse to leave it out.

    Welcome to the World where Nokia is no longer in charge of your phone, Microsoft is. Enjoy the painful, ungratifying ride.
    I'm confident they will better handle devices than Nokia did. Look at the first Xbox and then the Xbox 360 (Xbox one is too recent to say anything when we consider console stays on the market for 8 years, at least the 360). Same with surface, the third one is fantastic
    09-08-2014 03:41 PM
  8. DJCBS's Avatar
    I'm confident they will better handle devices than Nokia did. Look at the first Xbox and then the Xbox 360 (Xbox one is too recent to say anything when we consider console stays on the market for 8 years, at least the 360). Same with surface, the third one is fantastic
    I'm confident they won't, precisely for the same reasons. The Xbox One is getting a beat from Sony's PS4 albeit Sony's refusal to re-add streaming features to the PS4. The Surface has been a sales flop since the beginning. The hardware quality is questionable (I have a horrible experience with the Surface RT but an until-now pleasant experience with the SP3). I'm not sure how longer will Microsoft's shareholders allow that division to keep sinking money.
    Microsoft should stick to software which is what they do best and leave hardware for those who know how to do it. The moment Nokia left, standards fell all around and we're getting devices dumped for no reason other than lame excuses like "oh, it's hardware limitations".

    Furthermore, I'm not going to be the subject of Microsoft's experiments while they try to figure out phone hardware. If chances of me buying a Microsoft Mobile 1030 were below 1%, after what they're doing with the 1020, they are now below 0%.
    09-08-2014 04:17 PM
  9. Didier3001's Avatar
    I'm confident they won't, precisely for the same reasons. The Xbox One is getting a beat from Sony's PS4 albeit Sony's refusal to re-add streaming features to the PS4. The Surface has been a sales flop since the beginning. The hardware quality is questionable (I have a horrible experience with the Surface RT but an until-now pleasant experience with the SP3). I'm not sure how longer will Microsoft's shareholders allow that division to keep sinking money.
    Microsoft should stick to software which is what they do best and leave hardware for those who know how to do it. The moment Nokia left, standards fell all around and we're getting devices dumped for no reason other than lame excuses like "oh, it's hardware limitations".

    Furthermore, I'm not going to be the subject of Microsoft's experiments while they try to figure out phone hardware. If chances of me buying a Microsoft Mobile 1030 were below 1%, after what they're doing with the 1020, they are now below 0%.
    I used to agree with that less than few years ago but not anymore and I will try to explain why below. The problem of Microsoft the last few years is that other companies do hardware for them and because of competitors, they sold PC for Windows vista with 512MB of Ram or windows 8 device with low end Atom CPU or 16GB of disk space which then give a very bad experience on Windows for an obvious reason (at least obvious for techies). In my opinion these machines should not even exist. I hope Microsoft will fix that issue with surface and show the OEM how to do a good windows device.

    Regarding the Lumia 1020, I'm also the owner of one and while the latest firmware will not bring us all the features that have been added to the latest devices, we still have the latest OS available. Of course don't get me wrong, I would prefer the latest firmware too but I'm still very happy with the best camera phone on the market. Hopefully the next lumia 1030 will have a recent CPU this time. That's the only negative comment I have about this phone.

    If I had to choose another phone in the coming weeks i would still choose the one with the best Camera (930 or 1520) so that I can leave my compact camera at home. I'm not going to downgrade the camera on my phone.
    09-08-2014 04:47 PM
  10. Ashalinia's Avatar
    It's a good thing I'm using the 1030 with it's 82 MP camera. All you guys got ripped off!

    But seriously, we all knew when the 1020 came out it was using an outdated processor. Sure, WP doesn't need the SD 800 to function without lag, but obviously newer and more advanced features aren't going to perform very well on a processor that's over 2 years old.
    09-08-2014 05:15 PM
  11. Cryio's Avatar
    Reading through these comments ... 😣

    Half of you are either retarded or willfully ignorant and 3/4 of you are completely uninformed.

    1) DENIM is coming to ALL Lumia devices. From 520 to L930.

    2) ONLY Snapdragon 800 devices can film in 4K, only with Denim. These include Icon/L930/L1520

    3) Only SD800 are capable of 4K Moment Capture. This capture lasts for 24 seconds. Each moment is an individual picture of 8.7 megapixels.

    4) 4k Moment Capture IS NOT normal 4k filming. Denim probably enables 4k video capture for SD800 devices.

    5) Rich Capture = Auto-HDR for pictures, for ALL phones. On phones that don't have flash (this means the 520, 525, 530 and 630), there won't be any after the facts Flash editing. These phones WON'T take one picture with flash and one without and WON'T be able to choose the amount of flash in them .

    6) Devices that DON'T have Snapdragon 800 will only have access to HD Moment Capture.
    As per devices capabilities (read: limitations).
    - 1080p Moment Capture: 830, 730, 1020, 928, 925, 920, 820, MAYBE 625.
    - 720p Moment Capture: 630, 720, 625, 620, 520, MAYBE 530
    - 530 can't record in 720p, only 480p so there's a slim chance it will get 720p Moment. Either this feature will lack completely or it will be limited to 480p. Maybe 540p ? May be a stretch.
    - 625 CAN video record in 1080p, surprisingly. But recording AND taking and processing a pictures in the background? MAYBE not. It may very well be limited to only 720p Moment Capture.

    7) ALL devices will benefit from the rewritten Lumia Camera. If it processes faster, it will do so regardless of hardware. Improvements will of course vary depending on the hardware it's running on.

    8) Rich Capture with before/after Flash and later editing will be available to all Lumia phones that have Flash. SO NOT AVAILABLE TO: 520, 525, 530, 630.

    9) DENIM also brings Glance 3. This will be available to ALL devices that can run Glance today: 620, 720, 820, 92x, 1020 and 1520. New to the family being 830.

    10) Moment Capture at 4k/FullHD depends SOLELY on CPU horsepower. It DOES NOT matter that the L1020 can take 41 MP shots. It wont be able to shoot in anymore more than FullHD. Today, using a Dual Core 1.5 Ghz S4 Plus and 1 GB ram (basically 820, 925 and the 2 GB 1020) will net you the Action Shot feature, which takes 10 pics, 5 MP each (NOT oversampled) over the course of ~8 seconds (complete with processing and saving). These are NOT IN REAL TIME. Moment Capture IS in REAL TIME. Because of this, they reduced each shot to only 2 MP (basically 1080p resolution each) while also slowing 24 different shots instead of just 10. Complete with processing and saving. In real time.

    11) Same thing as point 10), but for lower powered devices.

    512 MB ram devices (and 525) will get 720p Moment capture. Previously, because of their weak CPUs, they could only record in 720pand take Action shots of 1 MP each. I also asume the process takes longer than 8 seconds ? This will mean that if they do get access to 720p Moment Capture, each moment will be less or at max equal to 1 (one) megapixel.
    PS: I have no idea about the 625 and 530, don't ask.

    12) "Hey Cortana" feature or hands free voice assistant will be limited to SD800. This feature sounds extremely useful so I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Microsoft makes it available any OEM using SD800 or better. I think they just want to shove more features under Denim right now.

    13) STOP comparing how the camera worked in Nokia 808 and L1020. Different OSes, different chipsets, different limitations. For f's sake, the 808 had TWO GPUs, one for the Symbian OS and one dedicates to video/camera processing.

    Conclusions: New features and Lumia Camera aren't limited just to high end phones. New features are coming to all devices. All your devices have limitations. Get used to it.

    PS: OP, you can edit your first post to include these info for all to see, to eliminate any further confusions.
    09-08-2014 06:26 PM
  12. aikidaves's Avatar
    12) "Hey Cortana" feature or hands free voice assistant will be limited to SD800. This feature sounds extremely useful so I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Microsoft makes it available any OEM using SD800 or better. I think they just want to shove more features under Denim right now.
    Based on the descriptions in the announcements, "Hey Cortana" is a WP GDR1 feature that requires SD800 or greater and a firmware interface, which in the case of Microsoft Mobile's Lumias will be in Denim. I would be very surprised if Microsoft didn't provide the specs for the firmware interface to all its OEM partners when the RTM of GDR1 was released to them - I imagine it's legally required both by contract and to avoid potential problems with antitrust regulators. It's conceivable that HTC, Samsung, or one of the others COULD release it before Denim comes out - but based on history, I wouldn't bet my money on that happening.
    09-08-2014 06:57 PM
  13. DalekSnare's Avatar
    3) Only SD800 are capable of 4K Moment Capture. This capture lasts for 24 seconds. Each moment is an individual picture of 8.7 megapixels.
    Moment capture takes pictures at 24 FPS; it doesn't last for 24 seconds.
    xandros9 likes this.
    09-08-2014 08:02 PM
  14. DJCBS's Avatar
    7) ALL devices will benefit from the rewritten Lumia Camera. If it processes faster, it will do so regardless of hardware. Improvements will of course vary depending on the hardware it's running on.


    12) "Hey Cortana" feature or hands free voice assistant will be limited to SD800. This feature sounds extremely useful so I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Microsoft makes it available any OEM using SD800 or better. I think they just want to shove more features under Denim right now.

    13) STOP comparing how the camera worked in Nokia 808 and L1020. Different OSes, different chipsets, different limitations. For f's sake, the 808 had TWO GPUs, one for the Symbian OS and one dedicates to video/camera processing.
    7) This is false. Juha has already said on Twitter that the 1020, for example, will NOT have any sort of improvement in the processing speed.

    12) Lamest excuse ever. "Hey Cortana" is nothing more than a copy of "Ok, Google Now". Motorola got it to work on a dual-core phones WITHOUT an SD800. Actually Motorola made it work on the Moto X, a phone with 2GB of RAM and a dual-core Snapdragon S4 Pro. Does this configuration sound familiar to anyone? Yeah. Exactly. These are the same specs of the 1020.
    Poor Microsoft, they just couldn't make "Hey Cortana" work on phones without an SD800...they're so helpless and new and without experience when it comes to software...

    13) People are bringing the 808 into the conversation because, as far as I'm concerned, it's the phone that shows that it's Microsoft that lacks any commitment. Nokia would have made things work. Microsoft just couldn't be bothered. They took the easy way out and simply declared obsolete every single WP device that isn't the ATIV SE, the M8 and the 930. And they had to obviously include the 929 and 1520 in the batch because otherwise they couldn't use the specs excuse. Otherwise even those two phones, who made money for Nokia and not exclusively to Microsoft, would have been written off.

    90% of the existing WP can live without Denim. Actually, if Microsoft were to simply not release Denim to those devices, no one would notice the difference.
    Anant Anand likes this.
    09-08-2014 08:22 PM
  15. Jas00555's Avatar
    7) This is false. Juha has already said on Twitter that the 1020, for example, will NOT have any sort of improvement in the processing speed.

    12) Lamest excuse ever. "Hey Cortana" is nothing more than a copy of "Ok, Google Now". Motorola got it to work on a dual-core phones WITHOUT an SD800. Actually Motorola made it work on the Moto X, a phone with 2GB of RAM and a dual-core Snapdragon S4 Pro. Does this configuration sound familiar to anyone? Yeah. Exactly. These are the same specs of the 1020.
    Poor Microsoft, they just couldn't make "Hey Cortana" work on phones without an SD800...they're so helpless and new and without experience when it comes to software...

    13) People are bringing the 808 into the conversation because, as far as I'm concerned, it's the phone that shows that it's Microsoft that lacks any commitment. Nokia would have made things work. Microsoft just couldn't be bothered. They took the easy way out and simply declared obsolete every single WP device that isn't the ATIV SE, the M8 and the 930. And they had to obviously include the 929 and 1520 in the batch because otherwise they couldn't use the specs excuse. Otherwise even those two phones, who made money for Nokia and not exclusively to Microsoft, would have been written off.

    90% of the existing WP can live without Denim. Actually, if Microsoft were to simply not release Denim to those devices, no one would notice the difference.
    Slight correction: The 1020 didn't have an S4 Pro, it was just an S4 and was only 1.5GHz compared to the Moto X's 1.7GHz. In addition, the Moto X had a Adreno 320 compared to the Adreno 225 on the 1020. Not that the slight difference should matter, but it might've.
    Last edited by Jas00555; 09-08-2014 at 09:39 PM.
    09-08-2014 08:53 PM
  16. roni09riku's Avatar
    If the 1020 doesn't get some features that newer phone models will get with the Denim update, it's because of its hardware limitations. It's not MS's fault that the 1020 cannot handle some features with its hardware.
    09-08-2014 09:16 PM
  17. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    7) This is false. Juha has already said on Twitter that the 1020, for example, will NOT have any sort of improvement in the processing speed.

    12) Lamest excuse ever. "Hey Cortana" is nothing more than a copy of "Ok, Google Now". Motorola got it to work on a dual-core phones WITHOUT an SD800. Actually Motorola made it work on the Moto X, a phone with 2GB of RAM and a dual-core Snapdragon S4 Pro. Does this configuration sound familiar to anyone? Yeah. Exactly. These are the same specs of the 1020.
    Poor Microsoft, they just couldn't make "Hey Cortana" work on phones without an SD800...they're so helpless and new and without experience when it comes to software...

    13) People are bringing the 808 into the conversation because, as far as I'm concerned, it's the phone that shows that it's Microsoft that lacks any commitment. Nokia would have made things work. Microsoft just couldn't be bothered. They took the easy way out and simply declared obsolete every single WP device that isn't the ATIV SE, the M8 and the 930. And they had to obviously include the 929 and 1520 in the batch because otherwise they couldn't use the specs excuse. Otherwise even those two phones, who made money for Nokia and not exclusively to Microsoft, would have been written off.

    90% of the existing WP can live without Denim. Actually, if Microsoft were to simply not release Denim to those devices, no one would notice the difference.
    but does moto x have a Pureview 41MP sensor
    no right so the comparison is not proper
    09-08-2014 10:26 PM
  18. theefman's Avatar
    As long as they don't degrade the picture quality to try and force people to upgrade to a new device its all good. I'm counting on all of you to beta test the denim firmware for any dodginess before I upgrade. TIA! :)
    lefffen1 and Karthik Naik like this.
    09-08-2014 11:06 PM
  19. pepcok's Avatar
    12) Lamest excuse ever. "Hey Cortana" is nothing more than a copy of "Ok, Google Now". Motorola got it to work on a dual-core phones WITHOUT an SD800. Actually Motorola made it work on the Moto X, a phone with 2GB of RAM and a dual-core Snapdragon S4 Pro. Does this configuration sound familiar to anyone? Yeah. Exactly. These are the same specs of the 1020.
    Poor Microsoft, they just couldn't make "Hey Cortana" work on phones without an SD800...they're so helpless and new and without experience when it comes to software...
    I hate to disappoint you, but Moto X has a dedicated chip for that. They even annouced their X8 board as "8-core", meaning quadcore GPU, dualcore CPU and 2 low-power single-cores for stuff like "always listen" etc. (natural language processor & contextual awareness processor)
    09-09-2014 04:12 AM
  20. prasath1234's Avatar
    Not at all

    Loads of device failures

    Lack of open source despite being a snapdragon+android combo

    Lack of service centres

    Service centres don't play fair

    Rather get a 630 or a moto G and be happier

    Shut up xiaomi is the best phone even nokia may have quality issues.As far as every review is concerned xiaomi is the best value for money device.Only problem I they are hard to get.my friends using xiaomi Mi 3 he is enjoying the looks no it does not look like cheap china phones.problem is you have to be that much lucky to get one.
    09-09-2014 04:54 AM
  21. prasath1234's Avatar
    As long as they don't degrade the picture quality to try and force people to upgrade to a new device its all good. I'm counting on all of you to beta test the denim firmware for any dodginess before I upgrade. TIA! :)

    Ya nokia is known for introducing greenish tinge in the photos due to post processing.I suffered the same with my Lumia 820 it cannot take pictures inside or outside.so atleast they should not spoil the camera of flagship with their silly updates which introduce more problems.
    09-09-2014 04:58 AM
  22. Cryio's Avatar
    Moment capture takes pictures at 24 FPS; it doesn't last for 24 seconds.
    It's 4k filmed at 24 fps for 24 seconds. This is Moment Capture. It's not normal shooting. It replaces Action Shot. For 1st Gen WP8 devices it probably eliminates Living Images too.
    09-09-2014 05:19 AM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    They even annouced their X8 board as "8-core", meaning quadcore GPU, dualcore CPU and 2 low-power single-cores for stuff like "always listen"
    Off-Topic side note: actually, the 8X is a dual-core chip, not quad-core. It seems to be the same SoC that is in the Chinese Lumia 920, extended with some custom hardware to support always-on listening.
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-09-2014 at 05:48 AM. Reason: spelling
    09-09-2014 05:46 AM
  24. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    Lumia Camera features aren't part of the Windows Phone 8.1 update 1 which was released by Microsoft and Microsoft has its own default camera application. Lumia camera updates are part of the Lumia Denim update which is written by the same imaging team at Microsoft Mobile(previously Nokia), which developed the 41mp camera module in the first place and also developed wrote and published Nokia Camera(which will be rebranded as Lumia Camera in coming update) along with Imaging SDKs. Now that, when the same team has been unable to bring all camera updates to Lumia 1020 because of whatever limitations, why are people blaming Microsoft(Parent Company) when they have nothing to do with this? At least in this particular matter.
    Last edited by DoctorSaline; 09-09-2014 at 06:23 AM.
    09-09-2014 06:07 AM
  25. msirapian's Avatar
    7) This is false. Juha has already said on Twitter that the 1020, for example, will NOT have any sort of improvement in the processing speed.
    I read what Juha said and you have to admit it's cryptic. Steve Litchfield interprets it as "nothing will change", but they were asking him will oversampling be affected.

    So I think most people are speculating when I believe the wisest move is to wait & see. I love my 1020, it will receive Denim and if the camera can get better, I'm happy.
    09-09-2014 06:45 AM
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