01-17-2015 09:45 PM
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  1. John20212's Avatar
    The Lumia 1020 is still their flagshis camera phone, and certain features of Demin like better image processing algorithms and HDR, and other stuff that some 3rd party apps support already could have easily been done and supported on the 1020; all it would take is time and money, which Microsoft has plenty of.

    If there ever was a BS excuse this is one: "old hardware, not possible" and I am ashamed that Windows Central is complicit in letting MS get away with crap like this and not calling them out on it, as any serious journalistic site should.

    The Lumia 1020 is not even two years old and it was a hell of an expensive phone for those that bought it off-contract, and even on contract it was $300 on ATT, which is not cheap with a two year contract.

    So Microsoft needs to get their **** together and instead of releasing countless low end devices they should instead focus on supporting their existing flagships and the people that decided to support their Windows Phone experiment.

    If it was not obvious already, I am pissed off that MS decided that the best camera phone currently in the market does not deserve their time and energy to support with some of the newer Demin features.
    01-16-2015 03:12 PM
  2. xandros9's Avatar
    The Lumia 1020 is still their flagshis camera phone, and certain features of Demin like better image processing algorithms and HDR, and other stuff that some 3rd party apps support already could have easily been done and supported on the 1020; all it would take is time and money, which Microsoft has plenty of.
    Entitlement much?
    The 1020 isn't working any less-great than it is now.
    They did not say these features will be available.
    Since when are you an expert and know exactly what is and isn't possible? Moreso than the people who MADE THE PHONE?
    Microsoft is not a charity, neither is Google, neither is Apple. New phones get features old ones don't always get, that is how its worked.
    You're asking them to sink even more resources into an aging phone, but hey, who is management to make such eeeeevil decisions? We're not talking about a non-profit here.

    The 1020 may have a great camera, but it isn't the best phone in the lineup anymore. And plenty of phones were expensive when they were new. I got a 2010 Palm Pre Plus for $15 lately, 2011 Galaxy S II for $50, etc.
    You were buying a phone that has the camera chops to blow away the competition, never have they said "pay extra for feature updates for the next 5 years!!!"

    It may be the best for stills, but the 930 and 1520 still blow it away in raw horsepower and can actually hold up well when taking 4K. Phones always are left behind. Once upon a time a manufacturer's involvement with a phone ended when it shipped.

    Heck, Apple does the same, disabling features like say, Siri on older devices. People paid a lot of money for the iPhone 4!!! They should have Siri!!! I had an iPod touch 4th generation where Apple Maps' 3D mode was disabled - it worked fine after enabling it via a jailbreak tweak. So go ahead and threaten to jump ship to (brand of choice)

    Admittedly, I thought the flash adjustment thing was really something I could have fun with, but oh well - you cant reasonably expect any company to indefinitely add features and continue to pour resources into a phone that's past its prime.
    But hey, at least you'll see Windows 10, But pfft, who am I kidding, you want the cake and to eat it too.

    Sorry I'm just a bit tired of the continued complaints/rants of instant phone camera experts.
    01-16-2015 03:39 PM
  3. theefman's Avatar
    Its still the best camera you can get on a phone, even with denim on my 1520 I would always use the 1020 for the best picture quality. Personally have no complaints, tech gets superseded all the time, that's the way it goes.
    01-16-2015 03:41 PM
  4. John20212's Avatar
    ......
    You were buying a phone that has the camera chops to blow away the competition, never have they said "pay extra for feature updates for the next 5 years!!!"
    Microsoft DID say they would support it for 2+ years with updates, now I took that to mean actual updates not a name change from Cyan to Demin without any actual updates.
    If you think a flagship phone should not have at least a two year support cycle with firmware updates, then I must disagree with that sort of thinking.
    Microsoft and other OEM's are going to continue to do this sort of update crap as long as people like you are going to let them do it and not call them out on promising support but in practice providing updates only in name for slightly older devices. I am not saying they need to provide support forever, but I think a two year full support cycle is not unreasonable, especially for flagship devices.
    01-16-2015 04:16 PM
  5. xandros9's Avatar
    Microsoft DID say they would support it for 2+ years with updates, now I took that to mean actual updates not a name change from Cyan to Demin without any actual updates.
    If you think a flagship phone should not have at least a two year support cycle with firmware updates, then I must disagree with that sort of thinking.
    Microsoft and other OEM's are going to continue to do this sort of update crap as long as people like you are going to let them do it and not call them out on promising support but in practice providing updates only in name for slightly older devices. I am not saying they need to provide support forever, but I think a two year full support cycle is not unreasonable, especially for flagship devices.
    The changes from 8.1 to 8.1 Update, personally at least, don't seem to be large enough to warrant a new firmware. I think BLU or some other OEM did the same.

    The 1020 is still slated for more major updates, its not like its ending here. On the firmware side, maybe not as amazing things are going to happen.
    01-16-2015 04:55 PM
  6. jomarr's Avatar
    They did not abandon the 1020.

    The processor probably couldn't support those features so it was better to just not release those features to the 1020. If it was given to the 1020 and it's buggy and slow as hell, y'all would be complaining too as to how they shouldn't have brought it to the phone if it were to be buggy.

    The 1020 is still a fantastic phone performing really great with 2 year old hardware.

    Microsoft does not abandon their phones. You might argue with WP7 but that was a different situation to even begin with. They said that ALL Lumias running WP8 will be getting Windows Phone 10. By that time the first generation WP8 devices will be 3 years old which is fantastic.

    Android users are always worrying when update time is coming especially mid range users because they might not get the update, on the lower end spectrum of Android, it's pretty hopeless, ha they wouldn't get updates but Microsoft made it sure that all current Lumias running WP8 will get W10. MS gives great support to phones. They just not want to give some phones certain features because of performance issues just like how Apple did not bring Siri to the iPhone 4.

    I think when you buy a phone you should definitely know that updates would, in time, degrade in terms of features to phones because Technology moves so fast, some of the hardware of previous phones couldn't run as smooth with certain features of the current software.

    I'm pretty sure the 1020 camera is still the best one out there so don't sweat it. Hopefully the 1030 is coming to satisfy the current 1020 users.
    aximtreo, JamesPTao and gerzhwin like this.
    01-16-2015 11:58 PM
  7. John20212's Avatar
    ................

    The processor probably couldn't support those features so it was better to just not release those features to the 1020. If it was given to the 1020 and it's buggy and slow as hell, y'all would be complaining too as to how they shouldn't have brought it to the phone if it were to be buggy.
    ...........................
    I am pretty sure it could support HDR or the variable flash by taking several photos and other basic new features; very unlikely it would support 4k, but the more basic features that 3rd party apps already have could definitely be supported on the 1020 if Microsoft wanted to. Since 3rd party apps already do HDR there is no hardware limitation why the Nokia Camera app with Denim could not do it on the 1020 as well.
    I know everyone here loves Microsoft, but that is no reason to disregards all reason and come up with bogus excuses for them; they came up with plenty on their own as to why they ditched 1020 owners with the new camera features on a freakin flagship camera phone.


    Not to mention the new software photo processing algorithms that are coming with Denim; there is absolutely no reason the 1020 hardware could not support tweaking the existing algorithms; Microsoft simply decided not to bother updating it on the 1020, hence why I said they clearly abandoned it as far as firmware and camera improvement go;
    sure we will get WP10, but the best stuff was always in the firmware and camera tweaks which we are clearly not getting anymore because Microsoft can't be bothered. They even said so in the Windows Central interview that they decided to just focus on 'newer' devices, hence abandoning the 1020 less than two years after release and without any successor to speak off for some time to come.
    techiez and gpgalanis like this.
    01-17-2015 12:42 AM
  8. Harrie-S's Avatar
    So you have your answer. Why start an endless discussion with people who in your opinion don't want to belief you.
    01-17-2015 01:30 AM
  9. Vincentius Dalton's Avatar
    ...
    Since 3rd party apps already do HDR there is no hardware limitation why the Nokia Camera app with Denim could not do it on the 1020 as well.
    ...
    Well you've said how 3rd party apps can do HDR for like, gazillion times. If you love HDR photos so much, why don't you use those gazillion 3rd party apps to take HDR photos? I mean, there are gazillion alternatives; Camera360 Sight, HDR photo camera, and ProShot are just three 3rd party HDR apps examples.
    aximtreo likes this.
    01-17-2015 02:28 AM
  10. milkyway's Avatar
    my 2 cents: 3rd party apps do not use oversampling - so it's way faster. all hdr images i've see done with 3rd automatic hdr apps were terrible. please use bracketing and fuse the images on the PC if you serious about cool HDR photos.
    John20212 and Harrie-S like this.
    01-17-2015 02:35 AM
  11. JaniM's Avatar
    It is not just one algorithm that can be implemented for every single Lumia out there. It has to be optimized for every model so there's an different algorithm for 930, 1520 ... etc. The thing is, 1020 would need just a little tweaking for it's algorithm for sure, but is it worth it for Microsoft to put hundreds of work hours just for tweaking something which actually does a quite good job already. If you want the best possible output just use those DNG-files and Lightroom/Photoshop.
    aximtreo and xandros9 like this.
    01-17-2015 04:04 AM
  12. gpgalanis's Avatar
    I think that it is really hopeless to try to discuss with some people here as it is in similar Android and iOS forums.

    In the past WP fans were proud about how light WP are and that you don't need high specs etch and now because of this a 1.5 year old camera phone flagship like the 1020 will not get the new camera features!

    And on top of this we won't even get better algorithms etc which is simply because MS just don't care. As for the updates honestly it is a joke to still wait for Denim 6 months after it was announced in order to get folders etc and some other basic features that existed in WM a decade ago and now they are part of MS WP "updates"!

    PS. The interview with the camera guru was also a joke since no serious questions were asked about the fact that MS abandoned the 1020.
    patrikmore and John20212 like this.
    01-17-2015 04:29 AM
  13. npoe's Avatar
    I don't see the 1020 taking 3 or more pics in a fraction of a second and doing basic processing of all that information.
    01-17-2015 04:49 AM
  14. jomarr's Avatar
    I am pretty sure it could support HDR or the variable flash by taking several photos and other basic new features; very unlikely it would support 4k, but the more basic features that 3rd party apps already have could definitely be supported on the 1020 if Microsoft wanted to. Since 3rd party apps already do HDR there is no hardware limitation why the Nokia Camera app with Denim could not do it on the 1020 as well.
    I know everyone here loves Microsoft, but that is no reason to disregards all reason and come up with bogus excuses for them; they came up with plenty on their own as to why they ditched 1020 owners with the new camera features on a freakin flagship camera phone.


    Not to mention the new software photo processing algorithms that are coming with Denim; there is absolutely no reason the 1020 hardware could not support tweaking the existing algorithms; Microsoft simply decided not to bother updating it on the 1020, hence why I said they clearly abandoned it as far as firmware and camera improvement go;
    sure we will get WP10, but the best stuff was always in the firmware and camera tweaks which we are clearly not getting anymore because Microsoft can't be bothered. They even said so in the Windows Central interview that they decided to just focus on 'newer' devices, hence abandoning the 1020 less than two years after release and without any successor to speak off for some time to come.
    There's simply nothing bogus about what I said. All I'm saying is that Microsoft may see some hardware limitations in older phones and maybe the reason for not bringing those features in the phone. I tried several HDR apps and they actually disappointed me. The SD S4 was nice during its time but the newer SD 800 and higher are leaps and bounds better processors than the SD S4 was. Again, technology runs through quickly especially today since all processor making companies tend to focus more on both battery life and performance as you can see with the new Snapdragon 810 and the new Broadwell chips from Intel.

    I do not in any sort worship Microsoft but I can really understand that a two year old chipset has limitations now. I'm sorry about your disappointment but I still disagree about your opinion that Microsoft abandoned the Lumia 1020. Until our phones stop receiving updates you can call them out for truly abandoning the phone but that happens all the time. I'm pretty amazed that 3 year old lumias will still get the Windows 10 update. Especially on the lower end of the market considering that comparable Android devices do not get updates and are most of the time stuck with the operating system version they shipped in.

    Hopefully they could work things out with Windows 10 so that it will be a win-win situation.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App for Android!
    xandros9 and aximtreo like this.
    01-17-2015 08:07 AM
  15. JaniM's Avatar
    And on top of this we won't even get better algorithms etc which is simply because MS just don't care.
    How on earth would Microsoft turn that tweaking of the Lumia 1020 camera algorithm into money? It's not a religion. It's business. You don't just pour money into something that doesn't generate more money.

    And, to compare with others. Think where we started as users of Lumia 1020. Windows Phone 8.0, a little laggy and buggy here and there. Then came first updates actually quite fast and update by update the os went the direction we wanted it to, we got WP8.1, and even more new updates and fixes. The underdog that Lumia 1020 was has grown into a world class smartphone which has unbelieveably good camera for its size and continues to be usable and affordable option that can be compared to much more expensive phones. I personally don't have any pressure to switch to a newer phone because 1020 just keeps on giving. Two years is a heck of a long lifespan for a smartphone today. Think one smartphone from the others launched about at the same time than 1020 was launched that is still a good smartphone and still receiving new updates that don't spoil the usability by making it sluggish and a pain to use.

    It is not abandoned. They just don't cripple it with updates that look good on paper but in real life just doesn't make it any better.
    xandros9 and aximtreo like this.
    01-17-2015 10:57 AM
  16. legend921's Avatar
    These phones aren't abandoned. Your still getting windows 8.1 update 1. I have a Lumia 925 and 930 and I was amazed that the 925 was able to get six columns for tiles and love folder view just like my 930. Now this 925 is about two years old. Your going to get windows 10 which is something to look forward to. The Lumia Denim update was primarily created for the latest phones that run quad core pure view camera to take advantage of the extra processing power.
    xandros9 and aximtreo like this.
    01-17-2015 11:26 AM
  17. gpgalanis's Avatar
    If it is business as you say then it is bad business because obviously they only have around 3% worldwide and honestly the 1020 was my first and last Windows phone.

    As for the "1-2 years old phones still getting updates" argument let me just say that that the updates that they are getting are things that other OS had 4 years ago so it is really a joke. Just imagine that still in 2015 I am waiting for Denim in order to create folders, to snooze my alarm etc!

    The 1020 is still their flagship camera phone and until they introduce another camera flagship they should have made proper camera updates to the camera to keep the owners happy.

    But anyway as you said it is just business so good luck to MS and to their rather pathetic 3% market share.
    patrikmore likes this.
    01-17-2015 12:34 PM
  18. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    Go sue MS if you're so right. Good luck.

    Edit 1. BTW, did I forget to mention that hardware-wise the S4 processor (which powers the 1020) is not capable of 41MP shots (actually 36, nvm), and Nokia (now MS Mobile) somehow made it? Still people don't care, which would drive me nut if I wouldn't know how sensible some users are.
    Last edited by Silviu Bogusevschi; 01-17-2015 at 01:43 PM.
    01-17-2015 01:31 PM
  19. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    The Lumia 1020 is still their flagshis camera phone, and certain features of Demin like better image processing algorithms and HDR, and other stuff that some 3rd party apps support already could have easily been done and supported on the 1020; all it would take is time and money, which Microsoft has plenty of.

    If there ever was a BS excuse this is one: "old hardware, not possible" and I am ashamed that Windows Central is complicit in letting MS get away with crap like this and not calling them out on it, as any serious journalistic site should.

    The Lumia 1020 is not even two years old and it was a hell of an expensive phone for those that bought it off-contract, and even on contract it was $300 on ATT, which is not cheap with a two year contract.

    So Microsoft needs to get their **** together and instead of releasing countless low end devices they should instead focus on supporting their existing flagships and the people that decided to support their Windows Phone experiment.

    If it was not obvious already, I am pissed off that MS decided that the best camera phone currently in the market does not deserve their time and energy to support with some of the newer Demin features.
    This is pretty full of ignorance. You're claiming to know the ins and outs of the hardware and software requirements of Denim, HDR, and everything else about this update, despite no explanation of logic to prove that point.

    The 1020 isn't yet 3 years-old, but you're also not considering (and very well might not know) what it is actually made of. The core of the phone is the Qualcomm MSM8960. This is the same SoC found in the Lumia 920, which came out in November 2012 on AT&T. It's also the same SoC found in the Galaxy S III, and was introduced by Qualcomm in the second quarter of 2012. The SoC itself is about 3 months shy of being 3 years-old. The 1020 was launched with an SoC that had launched more than a year prior, and they had to customize that SoC just to make the 41-MP sensor's support capable on the silicon.

    So, the stock SoC couldn't handle the 1020 without any bells and whistles, yet you claim that it could easily support all of these software improvements, and you're using nothing to defend that point as truth. Maybe it can make use of them, but it is probably also a case where the 1020 was a fairly niche device, Microsoft would be wasting too much money (and possibly compromising improvements on newer devices) to make the firmware and apps run well on the 1020.

    If you're going to make the grandiose claims you are, at least back them up with something other than whining about what you want.
    01-17-2015 01:47 PM
  20. gpgalanis's Avatar
    How are your MS stocks and salary guys? I am asking because you care more about MS resources rather than the money you paid for your 1020.

    I mentioned it before and I will mentioned it again that I don't care about the processor etc. It was Nokia decision to introduce their flagship model with it and MS promise to support all devices for 3 years. Also they were proud of WP not needing high specs to run smoothly etc and now they use it as an excuse.

    Forget the 4K etc.

    Do we need a better processor to open the app faster? No. Do we need a better processor to have better algorithms? No. Based on MS comments will we get anything? No.

    So bottom line I really love my 1020 and it was the reason to also try WP but the actual OS and support is a joke!
    John20212 likes this.
    01-17-2015 02:48 PM
  21. dpaynewp's Avatar
    . They even said so in the Windows Central interview that they decided to just focus on 'newer' devices, hence abandoning the 1020 less than two years after release and without any successor to speak off for some time to come.
    Um that is not at all what was said - the engineer clearly said that the 1020 did not have the chops to support the new features/enhancements...
    xandros9 and aximtreo like this.
    01-17-2015 03:08 PM
  22. xandros9's Avatar
    How are your MS stocks and salary guys? I am asking because you care more about MS resources rather than the money you paid for your 1020.

    I mentioned it before and I will mentioned it again that I don't care about the processor etc. It was Nokia decision to introduce their flagship model with it and MS promise to support all devices for 3 years. Also they were proud of WP not needing high specs to run smoothly etc and now they use it as an excuse.

    Forget the 4K etc.

    Do we need a better processor to open the app faster? No. Do we need a better processor to have better algorithms? No. Based on MS comments will we get anything? No.

    So bottom line I really love my 1020 and it was the reason to also try WP but the actual OS and support is a joke!
    Well how are your Google and Apple stocks doing? Since you seem to want them to keep sinking more and more money on attempting to add features to a phone that may not be making as much money for them anymore, even as they want to sell their newer devices.

    Yes, its being supported for 36 months. Updates? Yup, its still getting Windows Phone 8.1 Update, and soon 10. They still will service 1020's in/out of warranty, etc. Tell me where the word "support" means "the exact additional features and upgrades gpgalanis wants, everyone else and qualified people be damned"
    Support doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get every single additional feature, every single dinky switch, etc. The iPhone 4 did indeed see software upgrades up until iOS 8 launched. But wait, as I've said, it never got Siri! (and we do know for a fact it was possible) IT DIDN'T EVEN GET TOUCH ID. APPLE SHOULD HAVE ENABLED TOUCH ID - MY SISTER PAID LOTS OF MONEY FOR THE 4. WAKE UP.
    Look around, the fields on the other platforms may seem greener, but it really depends. HTC dropped OS upgrades for the One S, X smartphones a long ago, while the similarly aged Lumia 920 still is slated for 10. etc.

    Windows Phone doesn't necessarily need the fastest hardware around, but it doesn't mean its immune to reality and the laws of physics. I've seen someone else argue about how their low-end (not sure which model, it may have been the 520) Lumia should be getting 4K video recording since "its possible" because the 520 has a 5 MP camera.

    Do we need a better processor to open the app faster? Depends. But it without a doubt helps a lot.
    Do we need a better processor to have better algorithms? Algorithms are tailored to each phone, so they would have to spend resources specifically for the 1020, and the 1020 already performs great and doesn't have glaring widespread photo issues as far as I know.
    Based on MS comments will we get anything? Of course not! OS updates be damned! Getting Windows 10 isn't anything, developing it took no effort on their part because I know better than the coders and team! What was I thinking?

    Jokes on you, since you seem to hold Microsoft to a standard above and beyond the industry.
    01-17-2015 03:08 PM
  23. meowmixmeow's Avatar
    I remember jailbreaking my iphone 4 and installing siri a few years back. Boy was it slow, and man did it crash, many times. C'mon guys, lets just be happy that we have 41 yummy Vlasic megapickles that no new firmware/os update could give to a lumia phone at the moment.
    snowmutt likes this.
    01-17-2015 03:40 PM
  24. gpgalanis's Avatar
    I suppose that common sense isn't so common after all.

    1020 is the still the best camera phone in WP and probably in the market so I am expecting proper camera updates and I don't care about MS resources etc. I care only about actual support on things that for sure can be done with the existing processor.

    But since some of 1020 owners just buy the MS BS then I suppose that we will get the support that we deserve. And WP they will get the market share that they deserve as they do.

    PS. Except for the 1020 I have a Dell laptop, an Acer W700 tablet and a Toshiba Encore 2 tablet all running W8 but I won't stop complaining when MS or any other company treat me like ****.
    John20212 likes this.
    01-17-2015 03:43 PM
  25. Harrie-S's Avatar
    I suppose that common sense isn't so common after all.

    1020 is the still the best camera phone in WP and probably in the market so I am expecting proper camera updates and I don't care about MS resources etc. I care only about actual support on things that for sure can be done with the existing processor.
    do.
    Bottom line is that you can EXPECT what you want but nobody here can give that to you.
    And you can CARE or DON'T CARE about what you want but still there is nobody here that can give that to you.
    theefman and xandros9 like this.
    01-17-2015 03:53 PM
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