01-10-2014 05:37 PM
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  1. xandros9's Avatar
    I dont get why at&t sucks apples baws, they could just support both qi and pma but nooh f wp and give it an even bigger disadvantage
    not WP, Qi in general I guess
    01-07-2014 06:43 PM
  2. Citizen X's Avatar
    Quick googling finds the cheapest you can buy Sony Xperia Z1 with 16GB is $564.99. T-Mobile is reported to sell their version with 32GB for unsubsidized price of $528.00. So that's a 32 GB version for X-$37...
    So you can walk into TMobile and buy the Sony Xperia Z1 16 GB for $564.99 and right next to it on the shelf is the 32 GB version for $37 cheaper? You got a link to back that up? Just googling and picking a random price posted on the web from Timbuktu and then comparing it to the price at Tmobile is intellectually dishonest. So we've moved on from a $5 difference to now companies are selling the 32 GB version cheaper. Okay.
    01-07-2014 06:51 PM
  3. b23h's Avatar
    Citizen X, I don't really feel like wasting my time to correct your mischaracterizations and self serving premises but I will address one.

    Mr. Acerbic stated "$5 savings in manufacturing costs maybe...?" Your response was: "Anyway keep looking at parts lists and waiting for stuff at retail to sell for $5. I don't know of any manufacturer who doubles the high quality memory in a device from 16 GB to 32 GB and only bumps the cost of the device up $5 at launch."

    Acerbic never stated he expected a five dollar bump at retail, that's a cheesy mischaracterization. The cost difference is likely pretty inexpensive but we do not know how much the OEM charges for the difference.

    It is my impression that 16gb for a Windows Phone is bare minimum for any enthusiast and it is reasonable to expect that enthusiasts will expect more capacity. When MS allows for installation of apps to a SD that criteria will change. We are on an enthusiast site and so what do you expect? Finally do you feel like backing up your statement about 99.9% of users being fine with 16gb, that sounds to me like 99.99% pulled out of your ***.

    If you want to be smug and talk about "reality" don't mischaracterize people's statements.
    01-07-2014 06:54 PM
  4. Citizen X's Avatar
    I dont get why at&t sucks apples baws, they could just support both qi and pma but nooh f wp and give it an even bigger disadvantage
    First of all you have presented no evidence to support your assertion.

    Secondly let's hypothetically say what you've posted is true. What would you do as the largest mobile career in America? You do realize that if you standardize all equipment to whatever wireless charging Apple uses that removes a barrier for people that wish to switch from Apple. It means for those of you who are paying attention it gives at&t more negotiating power and WP more of a chance. Think about it if someone has wireless charging in their car, on their night stand, in their kitchen and at the coffee shop (which will all be apple compatible) don't you think it is smart for at&t to standardize to that so they can easily upgrade that person to any phone in the store?

    I have no idea if what you are saying is true but I don't see everything being compatible with apple as a bad thing. In fact quite the opposite... in this narrow instance... assuming it's true.
    01-07-2014 06:59 PM
  5. Joe Acerbic's Avatar
    So we've moved on from a $5 difference to now companies are selling the 32 GB version cheaper. Okay.
    Yes, T-Mobile apparently is selling their exclusive 32GB version cheaper than you can get a 16GB version anywhere. Glad you finally understand.
    01-07-2014 07:03 PM
  6. manicottiK's Avatar
    Citizen X, I'll take a crack at answering you honestly. No, the folks claiming $5 are talking about the wholesale prices of a component, not the price the market will accept for the component. The real retail cost is much higher. Fortunately, it's fairly easy to estimate the market price for an extra 16GB by two methods: 1) compare the prices of the 32GB RM-937 vs the 16GB RM-940 and 2) by comparing the prices for other high-end smartphones available in multiple memory sizes.

    The Microsoft Store has the 16GB RM-940 off-contract for $550 while many eBay resellers have the 32GB RM-937 off-contract for about $600. (Let's assume that the Qi coil in the 937 and the PMA circuit in the 940 are of equal cost and thus not a factor in the equation.) That makes the retail price for 16 GB of Lumia memory about $50. This is roughly corroborated by the HTC One, Samsung Galaxy S4, and Apple iPhone, where you'll find 16GB of memory going for $35, $40, and $50-100, respectively. Given how closely these track, I estimate that the 32GB AT&T model will be $50 more. (If today's rumors of a January 10 release for a 32GB model are correct, we'll know soon.)

    The complaints about what AT&T has done with the 1520 are based on disappointment with being denied a "pure" upgrade when the rest of Earth can get it. What I mean by that is that -- ignoring the issue of size, since those not interested in a "phablet" wouldn't even be looking at such a phone -- the 1520 is an upgrade from the previous AT&T Windows Phone flagship Lumia 920 in every way: screen size, screen resolution, cores, processor speed, GPU speed, OS level, camera, memory expansion. People outside of the U.S. get to make that clear upgrade choice. Inside the U.S., AT&T decided downgrade two features from the 920: memory is halved to 16GB, and Qi is removed. What could have been an enthusiastic upgrade decision is now a mixed bag for folks in the U.S. Those folks can see a "pure" upgrade in the RM-937 (and the rumored RM-938) and they're disappointing at being denied the ability to even pay for such a device.

    I can think of two negatives to having PMA on the AT&T 1520 rather than Qi, but these don't apply equally to everyone and they aren't even a knock on PMA itself.
    1. Qi is built in to the 920 and the international 1520 -- PMA is only half-baked into the U.S. 1520. Because it's only half-way there, a PMA user needs to add a case. The only PMA case available one is relatively expensive, fairly heavy, and nearly double the thickness of the device that users must carry and pocket. (This one would go away if PMA were fully built-in.)
    2. A bunch of AT&T Lumia owners already have an investment in Qi charging plates -- a technology that AT&T enthusiastically sold to its customers until only recently. Switching to PMA feels like the bad old days of having different chargers and adapters to power everything, a problem solved when the market coalesced around micro USB.

    So, I'll grant you that a model with an extra 16GB would likely retail for $50 more (since that's what we see in other phones) rather than $5 more. However, since not all of the PMA parts are built in to the phone, the switch to PMA will cost users who want wireless charging about $50 for a PMA case. Whether it was intentional or not (and I suspect not), the removal of 16GB perfectly offsets the added cost of a PMA case. Having the two changes happen in concert let AT&T both promote the wireless charging standard that it has backed and to maintain a price point that it trying to meet to sell a high-end Windows Phone in the market today.

    It's not a conspiracy. It's not illegal. It is annoying.
    b23h and 5150 Joker like this.
    01-07-2014 07:11 PM
  7. Citizen X's Avatar
    Citizen X, I don't really feel like wasting my time to correct your mischaracterizations and self serving premises but I will address one.

    Mr. Acerbic stated "$5 savings in manufacturing costs maybe...?" Your response was: "Anyway keep looking at parts lists and waiting for stuff at retail to sell for $5. I don't know of any manufacturer who doubles the high quality memory in a device from 16 GB to 32 GB and only bumps the cost of the device up $5 at launch."

    Acerbic never stated he expected a five dollar bump at retail, that's a cheesy mischaracterization. The cost difference is likely pretty inexpensive but we do not know how much the OEM charges for the difference.
    The manufacturing costs are irrelevant. What you pay at retail is the number we need to discuss. And thus far neither you or anyone else has shown me a recently released phone selling from a reputable seller where the RETAIL price difference between the 16 GB variant and the 32 GB version is $5. So please stop googling parts price lists unless you are going to set up a manufacturing plant in China. Talk about what we are going to pay at retail. Again I don't know why this state of affairs exists. All I know is it exists and it doesn't matter whether you are on at&t, Verizon, or Sprint. You can easily expect to pay $50 to $100 for the jump from 16 GB to 32 GB. This is irritating but not something that is in any way peculiar to at&t nor the nokia 1520. If people want to start a thread about the obnoxious retail pricing on installed memory go ahead. But acting like this is some kind of Nokia/at&t conspiracy is ludicrous.

    It is my impression that 16gb for a Windows Phone is bare minimum for any enthusiast and it is reasonable to expect that enthusiasts will expect more capacity....Finally do you feel like backing up your statement about 99.9% of users being fine with 16gb, that sounds to me like 99.99% pulled out of your ***.
    Lol. Dude, the iphone 5s,5,4s etc dwarf the Nokia 1520 install base and I've never seen someone with one of those things with any more than 16 GB of memory total.... no expandable memory. They live. I am not saying that there is no conceivable need for the 32 GB variant. What I'm saying is the market for a phone that will cost $50-$100 more at retail is tiny compared to the people that picked up the 16 GB version for $0-$99 within weeks of launch.

    I see this on every "enthusiast" forum I look stuff up on. Some niche group is like why didn't x company make y feature and toss it in for free or $5 for little ol' me. Even if I want the feature I think about the size of the market and the companies P&L.

    Anyway rumor has it the 32 GB variant will be available or ordering/preordering in a few days. It will be interesting to see the flood of people ponying up $50-$100 for the 32 GB version. Somehow I don't think the order flow with be as strong as the whining we've been hearing for months.
    01-07-2014 07:20 PM
  8. Citizen X's Avatar
    So, I'll grant you that a model with an extra 16GB would likely retail for $50 more (since that's what we see in other phones) rather than $5 more. However, since not all of the PMA parts are built in to the phone, the switch to PMA will cost users who want wireless charging about $50 for a PMA case. Whether it was intentional or not (and I suspect not), the removal of 16GB perfectly offsets the added cost of a PMA case. Having the two changes happen in concert let AT&T both promote the wireless charging standard that it has backed and to maintain a price point that it trying to meet to sell a high-end Windows Phone in the market today.

    It's not a conspiracy. It's not illegal. It is annoying.
    Someone put forth this theory in the Qi charging hack thread. Except his version was that he believed there were added costs to setting up a half baked PMA manufacturing run just for at&t and that some of those costs were defrayed by slashing the memory. Sounds plausible. Don't know if it is true. But it does sound more reasonable than "it is a secret plot to get you do use more data."

    I have a 16 GB phone and download video podcasts to it all the time. I also have an unlimited data plan. Frankly I never go over 3 GB worth of data. If a 16 GB phone is designed to force you to use more data it hasn't happened in my multi year experience. It could happen for some people I guess but I've never heard anyone in the real world complain about it.

    The thing is whether you are talking about cable modems, DSL or cellular data it is only a minority of users who go above a very modest amount of data usage a month. Streaming video like Hulu and Netfilx has changed that somewhat but memory on a phone isn't going to affect that. Whenever I hear people screaming bloody murder on the internet about caps and so forth you realize they are a vocal but tiny minority of people. I don't like that my contract says "unlimited" but limits me to 5 GB of LTE data. But to be honest with you it would be the rare month I would exceed 5 GB of data. What really miffs me about at&t is the fact they won't let me use those 5 GB as I see fit. If there is anything to have a justifiable rant about it's the ban on sharing. I mean if I pay for unlimited and even with sharing my connection with a tablet I use less than 3 GB a month why should at&t have any right to say anything? Really there ought to be a law.
    01-07-2014 07:32 PM
  9. b23h's Avatar
    manicottiK resolved this issue appropriately by realizing that people are not and at no time have ever stated that we expect a five dollar bump at retail and manicottiK has adroitly analyzed the concerns of enthusiasts over a 16gb 1520 as an upgrade.

    "What could have been an enthusiastic upgrade decision is now a mixed bag for folks in the U.S. Those folks can see a "pure" upgrade in the RM-937 (and the rumored RM-938) and they're disappointing at being denied the ability to even pay for such a device."

    Overall Citizen X I find your analytical style heavy on mischaracterizations and light on actual data.

    So apparently it may be released within days and it is great that consumers will be able to have that choice.
    01-07-2014 07:42 PM
  10. Joe Acerbic's Avatar
    But it does sound more reasonable than "it is a secret plot to get you do use more data."
    Oh how stubbornly stupid... how is it a "secret" plot and conspiracy when the salespeople and the apologists for the crippling regularly tell you that it's no problem because you can use cloud storage? Can you guess what else you use when you use cloud storage, genius?
    01-07-2014 07:48 PM
  11. b23h's Avatar
    Overall it is critical to remember that until MS updates WP to allow for apps to be installed to a SD card, that in whatever forum you are in you will see people complaining that 16gb WP devices do not meet their criteria. On the other hand you and others say that 16gb is sufficient. Personally I view 16gb as the minimum standard for an enthusiast phone and would prefer 32 gb.

    Given the above I have zero interest in debating people over whether 16gb is sufficient. For some it is, for many it is not. That's each persons decision whether or not they would prefer to pay extra for more capacity.
    01-07-2014 07:50 PM
  12. manicottiK's Avatar
    Oh how stubbornly stupid... how is it a "secret" plot and conspiracy when the salespeople and the apologists for the crippling regularly tell you that it's no problem because you can use cloud storage? Can you guess what else you use when you use cloud storage, genius?
    Because sales people are told to always say "we have a solution for that" and then to give you one, even if it isn't great. They don't mean that "cloud is equivalent to 16GB extra" they mean "our bosses told us to never disappoint a customer who wants something that we don't have, so we tell customers about other things that we do have and hope that the customers don't notice that we avoided answering them directly."

    Please don't even base decisions on what sales reps say or you'll be no better than the folks who think that a low-level person mis-tweeting from an off-shore customer service center is making commitments for AT&T corporate. With that kind of belief system, you might as well be reporting for WMPU.
    01-07-2014 08:03 PM
  13. manicottiK's Avatar
    I have a 16 GB phone and download video podcasts to it all the time. I also have an unlimited data plan. Frankly I never go over 3 GB worth of data. If a 16 GB phone is designed to force you to use more data it hasn't happened in my multi year experience. It could happen for some people I guess but I've never heard anyone in the real world complain about it... I don't like that my contract says "unlimited" but limits me to 5 GB of LTE data. But to be honest with you it would be the rare month I would exceed 5 GB of data. What really miffs me about at&t is the fact they won't let me use those 5 GB as I see fit. If there is anything to have a justifiable rant about it's the ban on sharing. I mean if I pay for unlimited and even with sharing my connection with a tablet I use less than 3 GB a month why should at&t have any right to say anything? Really there ought to be a law.
    Now, we're veering off-topic, but what the heck.

    As a general rule, people HATE meters* and limits. Any time usage is limited and metered -- even if there's no variable cost -- there is a disincentive for use and a corresponding decrease in innovation. I have an unlimited data plan and have never reached 2 GB, but I don't stream much and have amble Wi-Fi at home and work. My most data-intensive employee (we're a 40-person IT shop) got to 9GB one month, but usually we top out at about 4-5 GB. Still, we all complain about the idea that AT&T even meters usage and that I even look at the monthly statement, given that there's no incremental cost. People just hate being metered.

    I believe that this is also why people freak out about "percentage" battery indicators, Data Sense, 16GB phones, etc. Limits are bad. We all spend too much time self-rationing so that we don't run out of some resource. Think of the increase in productivity if we could just stop worrying about such stuff and just do our jobs, contact our friends, and entertain ourselves. Now, someone please figure out how to make that all profitable for someone.

    * Americans also hate the gram, liter, and other parts of the metric system.
    01-07-2014 08:15 PM
  14. Citizen X's Avatar
    Overall it is critical to remember that until MS updates WP to allow for apps to be installed to a SD card, that in whatever forum you are in you will see people complaining that 16gb WP devices do not meet their criteria.

    There's nothing to "remember." I see it every week on this forum.

    On the other hand you and others say that 16gb is sufficient.
    You aren't reading my posts. I said 16GB+64GB SD are more than enough for 99+% of the people out there. The 99+% is not an exact figure. It should be translated as "the vast majority."

    Given the above I have zero interest in debating people over whether 16gb is sufficient. For some it is, for many it is not.
    Switch that sentence around to "for many 16 GB+64GB SD is sufficient and for a minority it is not" and you will be closer to reality.
    01-07-2014 08:21 PM
  15. Citizen X's Avatar
    Now, we're veering off-topic, but what the heck.
    Lol. Yeah it was off topic but sometimes when you try and do some objective critical thinking about a problem that involves at&t you have to veer off topic to deal with charges that you are an "at&t shill." Just because I have my issues with at&t doesn't mean I'm going to swallow every conspiracy theory whole. Hey I might end up believing some of them but people are going to have to present some convincing evidence before I agree to this equation +/- 16 GB on a 16 GB + 64 GB SD device = using more wireless data.
    01-07-2014 08:38 PM
  16. paulxxwall's Avatar
    The Surface Pro 2 uses an SSD and even with that caveat $25>$5. And you are talking going from 64 GB to 128 GB. I asked about going from 16 GB to 32 GB. The fact that we are talking about phones and 16 GB and you had to jump all the way to the Surface Pro 2 which is basically a netbook in tablet form tells me you can't walk into any cell phone store regardless of which corporation runs it and pay $5 to double the internal memory on a 16 GB high end phone.

    Since this whole 16 GB kerfuffle started I have asked people multiple times which recently released high end cell phone do you know of where you can get the 16 GB version for X dollars and the 32 GB version for X+$5. Nobody answers the question. I just think conspiracy theories are intellectually lazy. People are confronted with facts they don't want to accept so they ignore them. I can't fully explain the universal mark up but I'm not going to just pretend it doesn't exist.



    Then please state for us which recently released high end smartphone you can buy the 16 GB version for $X and the 32 GB version for $X+5. Is that the way it works at Verizon? T-Mobile perhaps?

    The at&t version of the phone debuted at less than $550 off contract and was free on contract last month. Is the Qi 32GB version being sold for only $5 more somewhere on the planet? Seriously the at&t version is substantially cheaper than the prices I've seen for this device in other countries. If I am wrong and you guys are seeing the Qi 32 GB version of this phone being sold for less than $550+$5 from reputable sellers with full warranty go ahead and post your data and we will discuss. If someone shows us that happening all over the place then I will have to revise my thinking.

    And I am still waiting on this big insightful explanation of why Qi is better than PMA... or vice versa. I don't own either and I don't want to argue. I just want someone to take a break from conspiracy theories and ranting and just explain to me the difference and why I should love one and loathe the other.
    att gave me one and sold me 3 qi chargers...yes att did.that being said they've helped me invest on qi charging and now they say ...nah no more qi well go pma... But are they selling pma chargers? Any pma shells? And why does it need a charging shell? The 920 they sold me doesn't! So if I stay with att and decide to get a new Lumia....what do I do with these qi chargers they sold me? I can't use them on future Lumia phones anymore? That's what suck about att
    01-07-2014 09:24 PM
  17. unstoppablekem's Avatar
    I hope when the 32GB model comes out, that it is for all colors, and not limited to two or one.
    snowmutt and psudotechzealot like this.
    01-07-2014 10:10 PM
  18. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    As an ex-verizon customer I really don't understand all the ATT hate going around this forum

    ...it could be much much MUCH worse

    Your carrier could be T Mobile...

    OK not that much difference.
    01-07-2014 11:14 PM
  19. nuprotocol's Avatar
    From what I'm reading in this thread, even if Nokia releases a charging shell, it won't be QI? It would PMA?
    01-07-2014 11:30 PM
  20. snowmutt's Avatar
    Hmmm....

    Thread name: "What happened to the 32GB (AT&T) Model?"

    Thread content:

    "....Wireless charging, AT&T conspiring VS. the World, and Citizen X takes on all."

    Not that it isn't a nice read!!

    I do believe actually that Citizen X makes very valid points on the corporate decisions of AT&T. Let's face it: On their level, every decision is made with a thought process most of us as users could not even get close to. Also, I do not think using one example of T-Mobile selling one device with more memory for less then the international version as a reason to assume every device/carrier/OEM can or will ever follow suite. It is just one of those decisions that prove that in mobile there really is very little patterns that can be followed.

    And, outside of the Qi standard purchased by users already, so far I have no clue what the difference is in wireless charging. Heck, I am so 15 minutes ago I still plug my phone in with wires into a wall socket.
    unstoppablekem likes this.
    01-07-2014 11:54 PM
  21. snowmutt's Avatar
    As a side note (and back on thread topic), if Jan. 10th is when the 32GB varient of the L1520 shows up I can hope the price will be comparable to the 16GB bad boy already there. Or even less if AT&T really wants to one up T-Mobile!!

    More realistically, that means the best I can hope for is the 16 GB to drop in price a tad. I would be fine with that. I am generally a cheap skate. I have held out looking for a better deal on the L1520. Be neat to see what happens if it shows up.
    01-07-2014 11:58 PM
  22. 5150 Joker's Avatar
    That 32 GB model better at least have PMA charging built into it after all this time rather than forcing users to buy a crappy case. Otherwise I'll keep the RM 937, no way I could give up Qi wireless.
    01-08-2014 12:26 AM
  23. fitchalcyone's Avatar
    I can't remember, do the specific model numbers cleared by FCC (the RMs, basically) each have their own memory capacity? Meaning, is the 32GB version a different RM from the 16?
    01-08-2014 12:51 AM
  24. Tony_Offends_U's Avatar
    AT&T can take away half the internal storage, I'm fine with that. They can take away Qi wireless charging, I barely use it.
    BUT one thing they took away from all WP8 devices is Data Sense. After using that, I can't live without it.

    No Data Sense, no buy.
    unstoppablekem likes this.
    01-08-2014 06:23 AM
  25. psudotechzealot's Avatar
    That 32 GB model better at least have PMA charging built into it after all this time rather than forcing users to buy a crappy case.
    Dang, you beat me to the punch. any who, I agree 100%.
    01-08-2014 07:04 AM
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