[MSFTisMIA]

The simple truth is that the 810 and 8X on t-mo were casualties the company fully accepted in taking on once they made changes to their business model. The Lumia 521/635 are always gold mines for t-mobile for one reason only:

When you make a carrier branded phone for $130 without a contract, you sell the idea of these things being disposable. They're so "cheap" in the consumer's eyes that it is easier to upgrade to the next cheap one than get more mileage out of their current cheap one.

If that's the case, why would you push updating them? I'm sure their analytics can tell them what % of those people who wont upgrade and how much of that group keeps their phones, stays in t-mo vs getting another phone or jumping to another carrier.

To me, if you can, buy a popular carrier branded phone of you don't have the cash and are comfortable with the contract. If you're in the know and able to do so, buy your models unlocked.

[timeraner]

I made an account today just so I could post. Been tweeting T-Mobile and Nokia Support for several months about updates, also have sent a few emails. Here's an email I got back today:

Walmart Family Mobile powered by T-Mobile (“Family Mobile”) is in receipt of your correspondence dated July 19, 2014, regarding the above-referenced account.

Family Mobile regrets any inconvenience you may have experienced with your handset. Please be advised that Family Mobile is not responsible for the software updates to the Nokia Lumia 810. It is important to note that the release of the software update is at the discretion of the manufacturer, and when it is approved by the manufacturer, it will be released by Family Mobile. Additionally, the manufacturer most go through extensive testing to ensure that all components of the software enhancements included in the update are compatible with the hardware of the device.

At this time, Family Mobile will not be able to support the update to Lumia Black or Cyan on the Nokia Lumia 810 handset, because it is not available. Below is a link from Nokia’s website that provides supported devices in North America, you will see that the Nokia Lumia 810 is only available in North America and the updates are not available through Family Mobile/T-Mobile. Remember software updates will still come to the device to correct software issues, but unfortunately not for the Black or Cyan Update. Please see: Software update for Nokia Lumia with Windows Phone 8 - Nokia

Please note that if you are able to update to Black or Cyan, and it works, you can still use your phone with Family Mobile. We just cannot guarantee the phone will be able to handle the update without the approval from Nokia. We regret any inconvenience this matter may have caused and we appreciate your business.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. Should you have any further questions please feel free to contact us at: Family Mobile Customer Relations, PO Box 3220, Albuquerque, NM, 87190. Our Customer Service department is also available to assist you from 6am - 9pm PST at 877-760-8760.

Very truly yours,

FAMILY MOBILE


Haley Lane
Executive Response

It seems that T-Mobile is directly blaming Nokia for the 810's situation, inconsistent with what I've been reading here for months. Specifically,

We just cannot guarantee the phone will be able to handle the update without the approval from Nokia.

[Mr Lebowski]

I made an account today just so I could post. Been tweeting T-Mobile and Nokia Support for several months about updates, also have sent a few emails. Here's an email I got back today:



It seems that T-Mobile is directly blaming Nokia for the 810's situation, inconsistent with what I've been reading here for months. Specifically,

I posted a direct link many months ago to an article saying that NOKIA has decided not to support the 810.
I believe it was NOKIA's call in this case.

[MSFTisMIA]

I posted a direct link many months ago to an article saying that NOKIA has decided not to support the 810.
I believe it was NOKIA's call in this case.

I couldn't disagree with you more. There's stuff online to show that the dip**** on this one is t-mobile. Nokia has updated the 822 and 820. Name one good reason Nokia would have for withholding an update for a specific carrier variant model like the 810? Nokia needed all the brand recognition and consumer it got, not push folks away.

[timeraner]

I spoke with both Nokia and T-Mobile on the phone today and both would only blame each other. This is complete bullcrap. They even refused to transfer me to higher up.

[Mr Lebowski]

I couldn't disagree with you more. There's stuff online to show that the dip**** on this one is t-mobile. Nokia has updated the 822 and 820. Name one good reason Nokia would have for withholding an update for a specific carrier variant model like the 810? Nokia needed all the brand recognition and consumer it got, not push folks away.

You show me even one published article where it says T Mobile "did it" and I'll show you mine...

[MSFTisMIA]

You show me even one published article where it says T Mobile "did it" and I'll show you mine...

You want a published article? Go read MSFT's website where it says that updates are available based on your carrier. It's at the bottom of the website, if you care to look. No need for something directly from t-mo with that present.

For those who pay attention, it is common sense. It is the same reason why HTC didn't update their t-mo version past portico (even thought it is the same model as the international unlocked one that I own currently). The phone wasn't selling on t-mo, so t-mo stopped asking for restocks and since it is the carriers job to support models for their network, they're not going to "waste" resources updating a phone that has a smaller user base.

Want another article? Go look on Phonearena when HTC laid out the update process for carrier models for their Android phones. Same principle here.

[Mr Lebowski]

You want a published article? Go read MSFT's website where it says that updates are available based on your carrier. It's at the bottom of the website, if you care to look. No need for something directly from t-mo with that present.

For those who pay attention, it is common sense. It is the same reason why HTC didn't update their t-mo version past portico (even thought it is the same model as the international unlocked one that I own currently). The phone wasn't selling on t-mo, so t-mo stopped asking for restocks and since it is the carriers job to support models for their network, they're not going to "waste" resources updating a phone that has a smaller user base.

Want another article? Go look on Phonearena when HTC laid out the update process for carrier models for their Android phones. Same principle here.

You have no article with the reporter saying TM has decided not to support the 810 with Black. There are emails from reps but that's nothing like a reporter attaching their name to an article where TM is saying we decided not to send Black OTA. 0

Here is an article with a reporters name attached to it. At least most reporters check facts before they publish and attach their name to a publish article , bloggers and customer's personal contact with TM don't, that's one reps opinion or anecdotal " "evidence" " and not a reporter reporting.
Cosmin Vasile for SOFTPEDIA

Bad news for T-Mobile customers who own the Lumia 810, as Nokia recently confirmed it will not offer other major upgrades for the smartphone beyond the Lumia Amber.** Nokia announced a few days ago it has started the rollout of the Lumia Black software update globally. Initially, the update is available for Lumia 1020 and 925, but it will arrive on all Lumia smarpthones
powered by Windows Phone 8 in the coming weeks.

Unfortunately, Lumia 810, exclusively available in the United States via T-Mobile, has been skipped by Nokia. The Finnish company confirmed the information on its support site where it says Lumia Black update for this particular handset will not be available.
T-Mobile customers who own the Lumia 810 may want to switch to another smartphone if they want to take advantage of the latest features included in the Lumia Black update.

** and this is where it differs greatly from the posting you suggested, here he is either making this up out of thin air, or he's had contact with Nokia. None of your suggested "proof" mentions this. To say Nokia confirmed means he asked.

[Dr_8820]

That's funny, because I asked Nokia and they said TMo isn't releasing it... Look Back at your article. .. It says users of the 810 might want to upgrade to another device. .. Who comes out better when you upgrade, Nokia or TMo?

[MSFTisMIA]

Dr, as an intelligent consumer who has been following the cellphone industry for the past 10 years with a keen eye, I claim to have no internal contacts with Nokia or t-mobile. However, my mother has blessed me with enough common sense not waste time over splitting hairs.

I can list a number of carrier variants sold by these US wireless companies that didn't sell as excepted and got stuck with few updates. Most notably I can pull out WP7 and even WP8 where the Odyssey on VZW may not have gotten GDR3.

If people want proof as to who to blame, perhaps they should write these soothsaying reporters and ask how do carrier variant or cellphone contracts get done. From what I understand, the carrier goes to the OEM and says: "make me x phone with x number of units". Once the phone is made, the contract says that the OEM must provide hardware and software support, but the carrier has the final say on what gets released and when. The OEM cannot push out updates the carrier doesn't approve because that is a breach of contract.

To me, this is like standing in a burning building and fighting over who set the fire in the first place as the place is about to collapse.

My point is clear: my hard earn cash is worth something. Based on debacles similar to the 810 in the past, my stance is don't trust the carriers. If you cannot afford an unlocked model and you care about support from the software side, pick a popular model. Otherwise, beware of you buying the phone that you want if software updates is important to you. Carriers are here to make money. Nothing else matters.

[Dr_8820]

I would like to add that my t mobile branded HD7 didn't get updated past 7.5... but I guess that was HTC and not TMo. ...

[Paul Verizzo]

Hard to believe that at this late date, y'all are arguing about who is responsible for the lack of 810 support and updates. News Flash: It doesn't matter.

A month ago I did the 8.1 Developers Preview. I have to say that at last, I like my 810 a LOT. The single biggest improvement for my limited wants and needs was getting notifications on the Glance screen and the announcements bar. Battery life is somewhat better, too. Fewer major drain incidences.

The update took a LONG time because it installed six (???) updates total, almost all requiring reloading of data or something. But, well worth the wait!

I'm now good for another year or two. Maybe I'll buy a new phone when the 700mhz band opens up on TM and Metro. OTOH, that new 635 is really awesome for the price.

[Guzzler3]

Anyone know for certain the email address for Jo Harlow at Microsoft?

She's now in charge of the phone devices at Microsoft.

[Guzzler3]

** and this is where it differs greatly from the posting you suggested, here he is either making this up out of thin air, or he's had contact with Nokia. None of your suggested "proof" mentions this. To say Nokia confirmed means he asked.

OK, let's play this game:

Are you SURE that HE contacted Nokia at the time? Softpedia is notorious for just being a parroting news site (re-reporting other sources), but using their reporters name. The only thing he did was go to the Nokia firmware status site and say that Nokia isn't providing the Black firmware. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

[Dr_8820]

The thread was dying, so I bumped it haha! Seriously, I posted after seeing the official WPCENTRAL list and it confirmed what most of us felt would happen which also falls under this thread heading: TMo dropping support for the 810. All of the stuff about 18 months of support is out the window. If you want your 810 updated, you'll either have to pay to get the developer preview or hope to get a free account. It makes one think about supporting the platform any longer. ...

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Dustin Hodges]

Name one good reason Nokia would have for withholding an update for a specific carrier variant model like the 810?

Casually walks in late provide clarification.

While you are correct that in most cases withholding a tested, functioning update from consumers makes little sense for an OEM, and while it's true carriers will usually delay updates for devices with little sales or usage (usually due to the cost of testing the updates themselves.), this may not be the case.

For instance, the rumored "LTE Update" that never came to be *supposedly bricked or otherwise rendered the 810 useless, and as such was not officially announce or released to consumers. This may be the case again, where the black firmware (and to a further possible extent, Cyan) may of been found to be incompatible with the variant hardware of the 810, causing issues, instability, or even going as far as to render the device useless, and as such, the [black] firmware development for the 810 was ceased.

There is also the issue of the device being labeled as EOL. This means that neither the OEM nor the carrier are obligated to provide support beyond that of warranty or future updates to the device. As such, Nokia (Now MS Mobile) may be refusing to allot time and resources into thorough development of the firmware for the 810 as so to better allot the very time and resources it would need to bigger, more important projects.

As such, even though the act of carrier testing and pushing updates is up to the carrier, development and initial testing are responsibility of the OEM, and as we do not know the development status of the variant firmware for the 810, it is just as possible that Nokia themselves have halted development and release of Black for the Lumia 810 or any other firmware as much as it's possible that T-Mobile has chosen not to put forth the effort to release a finished firmware update due to the device's EOL status.

*I say this because in research of the rumored LTE update i once found an article, to which i forgot where (I think it was softpedia), quoting a response from a T-Mobile representative/correspondent stating that it did not pass testing stages due to issues with rendering the cellular antenna useless or otherwise bricking the device. However, as i can no longer find the article or confirm its source or reliability, i do not wish to state this as fact.
_____________________________________________________________________________

If you want your 810 updated, you'll either have to pay to get the developer preview or hope to get a free account.

Correction: In order to update using the Developer Preview (somewhat a misnomer), there are two additional routes to joining the program.

•1: Retrieve either the Windows Phone SDK, which includes Visual Studio, or the [custom] Windows Phone Lite SDK package, which includes only the registration and deployment tools, and then proceed to register your device. Registration is free and available to any user, but non-developers are limited to 1 device per account and only 2 apps (I believe it was) to be deployable per device (vs. 10 apps with a Developer account). Once registered, your device will be "developer" unlocked, and will allow registration with the Preview program.

•2: Register with AppStudio. Its free and once you've registered, you sign in with your MS account you signed up with in the Preview for Developers app and then you are on your way to 8.1

[MSFTisMIA]

@Dustin, well said. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a combination of the factors you mentioned. Mubonly point of contention is this: If the 810 was as popular sales wise as the 822, wouldn't t-mobile and Nokia have found solutions to the potential instabilities in the firmware? I read an article or two here on WPCentral about firmware issues with HTC and their 8X during GDR2 for some of the carriers and they skipped it and rolled everything into GDR 3.

To me because the phone wasn't popular t-mo probably went back to Nokia to say we're not going to take more orders and to cease and desist working in those firmware updates.

[ThaKrazyOne]

At the end of the day, the blame falls more on T-Mobile. They gave the 810 the EOL treatment after a few months of being out in the market. What came next was the 521, which is inferior to the 810, and then soon after the 925, which is superior. They decided to support those phones and leave the 810 in the dust. In this case T-Mobile screwed up. Here's why I know it's not Nokia aka Microsoft's fault... Both the 820 (AT&T) and the 822 (VZW) are almost the same phone as the 810 with the exception of LTE supposedly. Both the 820 and 822 are slated to get 8.1 Cyan in the near future. SO in this case it's not MS or Nokia's fault. This one falls solely on T-Mobile. If people can install the WP Developers Preview on the 810 and work with little to no problems, then that there is proof enough to go after T-Mobile. I would have done it myself but I ended up getting an unlocked 920 and never looked back.

[Mr Lebowski]

It's all speculation in the end, there is no real proof.
Thread needs to be closed.

[b23h]

It's all speculation in the end, there is no real proof.
Thread needs to be closed.

So let me get this right. You use an article that is little more than an fluffed up version of the Nokia Software Update Availability chart and it's statement that neither Black or Cyan updates are available as "proof" that Nokia is responsible for the lack of the update and when people fail to find that "proof" compelling you call for the thread to be closed. Wow, that's charming.

You blew into the thread late not having any idea who the CEO of T-Mobile is and repeatedly rode the asses of multiple people demanding "proof" of their statements as if you were the final arbiter of truth and so what's up with that?

It's a rhetorical question, I am not interested in the answer. I will say though that my experience with T-Mobile leads me to the conclusion that T-Mobile has a long history of abandoning their WP products with their treatment of the 810 as only one part of a very long history of maltreatment. So while floods of people flocked to T-Mobile recently I voted with my feet and moved to AT&T where I expect I will get Cyan any moment now for my 920. And so while I have respect for the policy moves that T-Mobile has made and find them responsible for sparking competition amongst the carriers in the US and really appreciate them for opening up a space so that I could in fact move to AT&T as AT&T had always been too expensive before, however I find fault with T-Mobile and think they are not an appropriate carrier for WP enthusiasts. That is to say it's often painful to use T-Mobile with T-Mobile branded WP hardware and many of you with long loyalty to T-Mobile have gone the route of using phones like the Rogers 920 or similar work arounds.

Personally I view this thread as a long dirge to the idea that one should support what one sells and treat one's customers with respect.


P.S. Thank you AT&T as I read that Cyan has been released to the 920 TODAY. Now that's momentarily.... (Correction, I guess the WP article was wrong and the 920 did not get Cyan today).

[ThaKrazyOne]

I too left T-Mobile a few months ago and went back to AT&T. The 920 worked fine on T-Mo in LA with the refarmed 1900 band. I can just imagine what will happen with the 521 and the 925 after Cyan.But then again now with them receiving the 635, the 521 might become the next victim of EOL

[Dr_8820]

It's all speculation in the end, there is no real proof.
Thread needs to be closed.

I want to help you. ...please point out the person that's making you read this thread. ..

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Dustin Hodges]

At the end of the day, the blame falls more on T-Mobile. They gave the 810 the EOL treatment after a few months of being out in the market. What came next was the 521, which is inferior to the 810, and then soon after the 925, which is superior. They decided to support those phones and leave the 810 in the dust. In this case T-Mobile screwed up. Here's why I know it's not Nokia aka Microsoft's fault... Both the 820 (AT&T) and the 822 (VZW) are almost the same phone as the 810 with the exception of LTE supposedly. Both the 820 and 822 are slated to get 8.1 Cyan in the near future. SO in this case it's not MS or Nokia's fault. This one falls solely on T-Mobile. If people can install the WP Developers Preview on the 810 and work with little to no problems, then that there is proof enough to go after T-Mobile. I would have done it myself but I ended up getting an unlocked 920 and never looked back.

1. Did you read what I said just a few comments above you?

2. The 810 is actually more varying in hardware than the 820 and 822. For instance, support for the 1700MHz frequency, combined screen tech from both the 820 & 822 (the 820 has a polarization filter while the 822 is Corning Gorilla Glass 2), uses a different Bluetooth module (based on BT3.0 rather than BT4.0), and likely other underlining changes that are harder to notice (most of above can be ascertained by comparing the spec sheet of all three devices.). For instance, the 521 has an additional sensor on the back of the device, that when compared to the 520, the 520 does not have one (view this thread post for more). As such, it is possible that there is a fundamental difference in the underlying hardware that makes this phone different enough that one can't simply 'tweak n go' the firmware for the 810.

3. The blame can be anywhere from T-Mobile refusing to allot resources to test the firmware to Nokia refusing to allot time and resources without an incentive to do so from T-Mobile, to the other, very possible reasons I listed above. We have no solid proof of blame for either party. All we have is a couple of varying customer service rep responses with questionable reliability (I'm sorry, but as Walmart Family Mobile is an MVNO powered by T-Mobile, I highly doubt they would have more info than T-Mobile themselves, especially when it comes to a service rep.), and the fact that the device is EOL (due to poor sales, most likely), meaning neither party is required to provide updates of any kind to the device.
______________________________________________________________

Honestly, this thread should be closed, EXCEPT for the fact that it would become of use in the case that any headway is made on the issue, or in the case that it actually receives a new firmware update.

I couldn't care less about firmware. In fact, Cyan removes bar code scanning, and the Nokia System apps bring 90% of the new features as long as you have the latest OS, firmware or not, so to it I say good riddance.

[sahib lopez]

So um I'm going to say it ....the 810 was the better device out of the 3 >.> yet it was the first one to be dropped

[Dustin Hodges]

So um I'm going to say it ....the 810 was the better device out of the 3 >.> yet it was the first one to be dropped

Sales. The 810 was the highest cost out of it and the two 82x models, and not enough customers' were buying it over other TMobile devices. The 521 was a runaway success, which is why it avoided the same fate, and the 925 did well enough that ATT felt they need it.