11-12-2012 04:00 AM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    Lol, funny how Sony can make these great sensors but can't figure out the software side of things.
    Yes. Software often ends up being the much more important and complicated part of these systems, particularly when it comes to things like image processing. Many companies excel at hardware development but completely fail when it comes to software. Sony is one of them. Nokia once was too, but they have accepted that fact and outsourced it.
    10-31-2012 04:23 PM
  2. vlad0's Avatar
    I really don't get how Apple manages to be the only company to consitently bring very good cameras to their phones. They don't even make the parts themselves!
    They only have 4 phones with different camera modules ...

    The best camera on a smartphone is made by Nokia.. by a pretty big margin. Their 808 is way ahead of the game when it comes to imaging, video recording, and sound recording..

    Now, why they didn't use that technology in their Windows 8 phone flagship, since its already developed and ready to go.. I believe its a Windows NT limitation, otherwise we would have seen a PureView Pro by now.

    Lol, funny how Sony can make these great sensors but can't figure out the software side of things.

    Well at least they make some money from Apple, right?
    Hah ya they do make money out of it... As far as I know their BSI tech is not the leading one, but they are doing fine.
    10-31-2012 04:30 PM
  3. alpinestars1z's Avatar
    The best camera on a smartphone is made by Nokia.. by a pretty big margin. Their 808 is way ahead of the game when it comes to imaging, video recording, and sound recording..

    Now, why they didn't use that technology in their Windows 8 phone flagship, since its already developed and ready to go.. I believe its a Windows NT limitation, otherwise we would have seen a PureView Pro by now.
    Because of the S4 only supporting up to 20MP sensors? But then someone said the 808 has a dedicated image chip or something like that, so I'm not sure how this all works.

    Or they decided no one would buy the Lumia with a huge camera bulge.

    Or they're working on combining the OIS and the 41MP sensor into a epic cameraphone next year?

    Man, I really wish the 808 came in a WP variant.
    10-31-2012 04:36 PM
  4. vlad0's Avatar
    Because of the S4 only supporting up to 20MP sensors? But then someone said the 808 has a dedicated image chip or something like that, so I'm not sure how this all works.
    Partially.. I don't know for sure, but from what I've gathered around the web we have the following:

    First, the reason why you get the quality you do on the 808 despite the fact that it uses 1.4 micron pixels (just like the 920/iphone 5/gs3) is because Nokia figured out a way to combine 6-7 1.4 micron pixels into one bigger one.. approx. 3.0 microns. The bigger the pixels, the more light, less noise.. more detail, better low light performance, etc.

    Currently, there is no SoC (system on a chip) that can handle more than 20Mpix, therefore Nokia had to implement an additional processing chip (for the 808) that is built into the camera module, and that way the processing load is spilt between the main GPU and the secondary unit (20Mpix each I guess). The main GPU and the companion chip need to be perfectly synchronized, so that all the oversampling and the other software tricks work properly. For that to happen, you either need an RTOS: Real-time operating system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia / or a very, very low latency Monolithic kernel: Monolithic kernel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Android, iOS, and Windows Phone are all monolithic, Symbian is RTOS.

    So, as far as I can tell, there are four options here:

    1. They wait until there is a chip set powerful enough to handle the processing load coming from the camera module in the 808, and that way they bypass all the sync issues.

    2. They create a secondary (very primitive) OS that handles the camera system separately, and runs under the main OS.

    3. They bring down the megapixel count to 20Mpix, and don't perform any oversampling so that the system can handle the load.. and compensate with physically larger pixels.

    4. They somehow manage to bring the latency in Windows Phone low enough, to where there are no sync issues.

    There is also the question of Xenon, which requires a mechanical shutter.. more sync issues.

    This is my own summery. Now.. if it was that easy, like a said before, there would be a PureView PRO Lumia already.
    10-31-2012 04:42 PM
  5. theefman's Avatar
    Buy another phone (enough of the moaners have already newly "ahem" decided to get the 8X, you'd think they'ed be in those forums looking for info). Open the box, take pics, enjoy. Problem solved. :D
    Residing and cckgz4 like this.
    10-31-2012 04:49 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Android, iOS, and Windows Phone are all monolithic, Symbian is RTOS.
    Having a monolithic kernel (which windows phone strictly taken isn't, it's a hybrid) and an RTOS kernel isn't mutually exclusive. Monolithic RTOS kernels exist. Windows CE, on which WP7 is based, is an RTOS OS.
    10-31-2012 04:50 PM
  7. vlad0's Avatar
    Having a monolithic kernel (which windows phone strictly taken isn't, it's a hybrid) and an RTOS kernel isn't mutually exclusive. Monolithic RTOS kernels exist. Windows CE, on which WP7 is based, is an RTOS OS.
    right.. Like I said, I my info is not 100% accurate and its mostly speculation.

    Either way, the 920 will take good enough pictures for 99% of the user base, its just that it won't be "amazing" like a lot of people were expecting it to be. OIS still works very well for video recording...
    a5cent likes this.
    10-31-2012 05:03 PM
  8. squire777's Avatar
    I'm disappointed with the way the pics are looking at the moment. But as others have mentioned it looks like typical smearing on jpegs caused by an overly aggressive noise reduction system. This could be resolved with firmware updates that would allow users to turn off NR.

    I had an Olympus XZ-1 that was an amazing camera, but Olympus was too aggressive with the NR on that camera and jpegs looked quite smeared at high ISOs.

    The other issue I'm seeing is a focusing issue. I haven't used the phone so I can't tell what kind of focus modes it has (centre, spot, etc). Some of the pictures, especially scenery shots look out of focus.
    10-31-2012 05:07 PM
  9. alpinestars1z's Avatar
    I'm disappointed with the way the pics are looking at the moment. But as others have mentioned it looks like typical smearing on jpegs caused by an overly aggressive noise reduction system. This could be resolved with firmware updates that would allow users to turn off NR.

    I had an Olympus XZ-1 that was an amazing camera, but Olympus was too aggressive with the NR on that camera and jpegs looked quite smeared at high ISOs.

    The other issue I'm seeing is a focusing issue. I haven't used the phone so I can't tell what kind of focus modes it has (centre, spot, etc). Some of the pictures, especially scenery shots look out of focus.
    Yeah I thought I saw the focusing issue too, just wasn't sure.
    10-31-2012 05:10 PM
  10. joeynox's Avatar
    To the peeps saying that people complaining need to move on are wrong.We are all here because for some reason we like WP and many have held out ( myself ) for a lumia 920 and after reading, hearing, and seeing all the hype from nokia and others regarding the MAIN marketed feature of the device not performing better than its biggest competitor is disappointing. Then hearing issues with the battery is devastating.
    Alot of people say wait for the Big sites but engadget will give it a low review, the verge will give it a poor review even if they loved the phone, Gizmodo is pro apple ( fact ) will rape the phone. The only site that seems to be unbiased is slashgear. Once these reviews hit and point out the negatives with the most advertised feature of the phone could be really hurt the os and the phone line. so as a fan of nokia and of wp it upsets us that the phone doesnt live up to the hype . Even if its just a software issue it shouldnt have been released like that at this point in nokias life
    10-31-2012 05:10 PM
  11. alpinestars1z's Avatar
    To the peeps saying that people complaining need to move on are wrong.We are all here because for some reason we like WP and many have held out ( myself ) for a lumia 920 and after reading, hearing, and seeing all the hype from nokia and others regarding the MAIN marketed feature of the device not performing better than its biggest competitor is disappointing. Then hearing issues with the battery is devastating.
    Alot of people say wait for the Big sites but engadget will give it a low review, the verge will give it a poor review even if they loved the phone, Gizmodo is pro apple ( fact ) will rape the phone. The only site that seems to be unbiased is slashgear. Once these reviews hit and point out the negatives with the most advertised feature of the phone could be really hurt the os and the phone line. so as a fan of nokia and of wp it upsets us that the phone doesnt live up to the hype . Even if its just a software issue it shouldnt have been released like that at this point in nokias life
    What about Wired, AnandTech, GSMArena (I'm sure they'll do a nice camera comparison) and PhoneArena?

    If it is a software issue, what do you suggest they do? Delay it? Everyone's already been complaining for months about no release date.
    a5cent and Yakkaimono like this.
    10-31-2012 05:21 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    What about Wired, AnandTech, GSMArena (I'm sure they'll do a nice camera comparison) and PhoneArena?
    All of those are much better then the review sites previously mentioned! AnandTech is usually best.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-31-2012 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Spelling
    alpinestars1z likes this.
    10-31-2012 05:23 PM
  13. jonathan sink's Avatar
    HTC evo lte has an excellent camera. Not sure what your doing wrong. Even in low light the pics are nice. Not lumia nice, but probably not far off.
    I disagree hated my Evo camera and all.
    10-31-2012 05:34 PM
  14. jonathan sink's Avatar
    Nokia screwed themselves . They focused on low light and hurt themself with dayshots. Most pictures are taken during the day.
    I would have to ask where or how you come up with the fact that most pics are shot during the day. I know for myself and most everyone I know that while working during the day 5-6 days a week leaves very little time for day shots most at night or poor lit rooms.
    10-31-2012 05:37 PM
  15. Winterfang's Avatar
    Well slap my arse and call me Mandy. With bad quality pictures and terrible battery life there's no excuse for the lumia to be that huge.
    10-31-2012 05:46 PM
  16. gfiz's Avatar
    Gizmodo is pro apple ( fact ) will rape the phone.
    I just choked on my coffee... are you hearkening back to pre iPhone gate? Because subsequent to the whole "lost iphone4 in a bar" incident, I don't know of a tech site more anti apple nowadays. (And understandably so)


    Anyway...just needed to point that out. Current android user and soon to be WP8 user, so no horse here

    Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2
    10-31-2012 05:51 PM
  17. independentvolume's Avatar
    Well slap my arse and call me Mandy. With bad quality pictures and terrible battery life there's no excuse for the lumia to be that huge.
    Can I pull your hair and playfully bite your lip as well?
    10-31-2012 05:55 PM
  18. Winterfang's Avatar
    Can I pull your hair and playfully bite your lip as well?
    Ew that was just a figure of speech. Let's keep this relationship PG 13.
    10-31-2012 06:07 PM
  19. alpinestars1z's Avatar
    Well slap my arse and call me Mandy. With bad quality pictures and terrible battery life there's no excuse for the lumia to be that huge.
    The image quality isn't that bad. And how do you know it has terrible battery life?
    10-31-2012 06:12 PM
  20. Winterfang's Avatar
    The image quality isn't that bad. And how do you know it has terrible battery life?
    Did you really though you will saying the words "Well the lumia 920 camera isn't that bad"?

    CNET said their phone almost dead in 4 hours.
    10-31-2012 06:19 PM
  21. imanolsoliman's Avatar
    I posted this in the xserver's thread:
    "I'm a young amateur photographer and I've been waiting for this phone since it was announced... but now I'm very disappointed with the camera.
    My current phone is an N8 and I use it as my "point-and-shot" while my DSLR is my main camera, and that symbian phone makes a good job, but it's SO is dead... so I was waiting to see how the lumia's camera was, and the daylight pictures look worse than the N8 ones....
    However, I've been looking at the pictures for a while and I noticed that the focus and white balance where perfect, but there is a lot of detail loss, and I think that the answer is in postprocessing, not in the sensor.... And that's important: it's a software problem.
    The camera is set for take only night or low light pics, so the noise reduction and compression are way too much for a daylight pic..."

    I belive that the camera problem is the postprocessing, if there is a way to change it, since it's apparently a software problem, the picture quality will improve.
    10-31-2012 06:26 PM
  22. alpinestars1z's Avatar
    Did you really though you will saying the words "Well the lumia 920 camera isn't that bad"?

    CNET said their phone almost dead in 4 hours.
    When you say bad quality pictures I'm thinking webcam quality pictures, which this is not. I'm just trying to get people not to say it's bad or it's crappy or terrible when it really isn't. I think the thread title sums it up nicely, "not as good as we thought," not bad.

    4 hours under heavy use. And that wasn't a scientific test. What if they used a Galaxy S III or an HTC One X and it lasted the exact same 4 hours? Now that's got terrible battery life too?

    Look at this review, which is the one of the reviews you guys use to point out how "crappy" the camera is:

    Nokia Lumia 920 review | Expert Reviews

    The phone managed a reasonable six hours and 56 minutes of videoplayback in our battery test, which is significantly better than the HTC 8X's meagre five and a half hours.
    So apparently your beloved 8X has even worse battery life than the "already terrible" Lumia 920.

    By the way everyone, I'm not trying to start another Lumia vs 8X war, I know the 8X's battery life isn't terrible, but if we go by Winterfang's standards, then it would be.
    10-31-2012 06:33 PM
  23. theefman's Avatar
    The haters are out in force!
    10-31-2012 06:39 PM
  24. joeynox's Avatar
    from what people have said its an average camera for todays standard. its inline with the s3 but lower than the iphone 5. with all the hype and tech it should produce better images than the iphone. But everyone who has reviewed it has stated the images are soft/ produce less detail. thats upsetting. if nokias amazing" tech " is noise reduction then they need a new camera guy . " some what sarcasm"
    10-31-2012 06:40 PM
  25. alpinestars1z's Avatar
    from what people have said its an average camera for todays standard. its inline with the s3 but lower than the iphone 5. with all the hype and tech it should produce better images than the iphone. But everyone who has reviewed it has stated the images are soft/ produce less detail. thats upsetting. if nokias amazing" tech " is noise reduction then they need a new camera guy . " some what sarcasm"
    They did great on the hardware, the problem is probably software, in which case, they need better camera-software-writing people.
    10-31-2012 06:44 PM
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