11-12-2012 04:00 AM
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  1. Reflexx's Avatar
    Yeah. It does sound like a software issue with noise reduction being a little too high.

    If enough people make a stink, it may be solvable through an update.
    10-31-2012 06:48 PM
  2. Reflexx's Avatar
    Ew that was just a figure of speech. Let's keep this relationship PG 13.
    PG13 nowadays can be pretty frisky!!
    10-31-2012 06:49 PM
  3. xxgatvolxx's Avatar
    920
    http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/ca...test-large.jpg

    ip5
    http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/ca...hone-large.jpg


    I dont care if its software or hardware. The PHOTOS from the 920 are not as good as the ip5 in daylight. Not sure what a professional can do with a point and shoot taking a picture of a landscape a few hundred yards away across a river, but I don't see how it can get rid of the noise in this photos.

    Sure, if the camera software is fixed it could be better. I love how the ip5 software for its camera is likened to a crutch for inferior hardware, but Nokia's inferior software is not a big deal and will be fixed eventually to make it on par with a crappier camera from apple.
    Not sure if we are looking at the same pics, but the Lumia is much clearer if you zoom in. Look at the railing on the left. The iPhone has much nicer colour, but that's surely processing as with overcast like that it should be more grey. Looks to me like Lumia = natural w more detail, and iphone 5 = more colour with less detail. I would pic the Lumia but I can definitely see the appeal for the iphone 5 style.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    10-31-2012 07:01 PM
  4. rmichael75's Avatar
    Guys,

    How many comparisions have you seen about videos and low light.. and we didnt have any day light pictures.

    Nokia didnt talk about it. Nokia I believe focussed on improving low light and the making videos better. It is still 8 MP. this is the max they can do.

    I am sure in Feb they will unveil the best camera phone monster.

    But hey 920 have lot of other things which makes it the best windows phone 8 phone.

    Again, Nokia can improve software any day.. Hardware is there in the phone.. So dont fret.
    10-31-2012 07:14 PM
  5. rmichael75's Avatar
    Did you really though you will saying the words "Well the lumia 920 camera isn't that bad"?

    CNET said their phone almost dead in 4 hours.
    winterfang is a 'HTC' head.. he is going to buy HTC 8X. let us wait till he buys a 8X and then see if he is a happy camper or grumpy one. You buy a phone.. it cannot be the best. It keeps on improving. Next year phones will be better than this year..

    Just be happy with what Nokia has achieved so far..

    There is so much buzz mainly because of Nokia.. so be happy and enjoy.

    Again, i dont see HTC doing anything to get pple to do apps. Nokia is doing a lot more. So instead of saying thank you, all you can do is grumble.

    I would like to get your review of 8X once you buy it.
    10-31-2012 07:21 PM
  6. srmiller82's Avatar
    Still don't see how you can say a phones takes better pics that gets pointed anywhere near bright light and turns purple, not only does it ruin the pic its not even as good as any other phone that doesn't have a purple tint, don't be ridiculous they will update software until then it will still take daytime pics without purple tint which makes it a better pic than iPhone. Oh and video still way better than iPhone night or day.
    10-31-2012 07:32 PM
  7. ColeHarris's Avatar
    Wow you people are already complaining about the camera before the phone is even really out yet? Seriously? We've had like maybe 4 or 5 people post pictures so far and all the sudden the 920 has an inferior camera and bla bla bla and Nokia are liars yada yada.

    Heres a fact for ya, great cameras can take crap photos and crap cameras can take great photos, there are a lot of variables to take into consideration when evaluating the quality of a photo and until we get some legitimate tests under proper scientific circumstances its impossible to say one way or the other if the 920 has a good camera. From what I've seen at least it looks light there are quite a few settings to play with in the camera app on WP8 and changing some settings up could make a huge difference in image quality especially in regards to sharpness or the lack thereof which is often the result of a low shutter speed or high iso setting.

    Either way its important that we don't jump to conclusions until we know more, it won't be long now before the NDA is up and we start seeing some reviews. Just this morning I read a tweet from Vlad Savov which seemed to indicate that the camera was excellent so I have a feeling that we're not going to be disappointed. Just stay cool everybody!
    a5cent, vp710, cckgz4 and 2 others like this.
    10-31-2012 07:54 PM
  8. Corday108's Avatar
    Not sure if we are looking at the same pics, but the Lumia is much clearer if you zoom in. Look at the railing on the left. The iPhone has much nicer colour, but that's surely processing as with overcast like that it should be more grey. Looks to me like Lumia = natural w more detail, and iphone 5 = more colour with less detail. I would pic the Lumia but I can definitely see the appeal for the iphone 5 style.
    I think you have the pictures mixed up. The iPhone photo is the sharper and less vibrant photo, the Lumia photo is richer but less detailed.
    10-31-2012 08:22 PM
  9. vlad0's Avatar
    Heres a fact for ya, great cameras can take crap photos and crap cameras can take great photos,
    True, but your opportunity window for taking a better photograph is higher with a good camera that has a more forgiving "auto" mode and so on... like I said, I think that the 920 would be fine, but the quality is average, and way short of Nokia's best work.

    AnandTech, GSMArena (I'm sure they'll do a nice camera comparison)
    I would take those two over any of the "major" blogs... those two are legit :D

    N8 and I use it as my "point-and-shot" while my DSLR is my main camera, and that symbian phone makes a good job, but it's SO is dead...
    The N8 has a bigger sensor, better jpeg processing (it seems), and probably better optics.

    The essential part is that the N8 shoots @ 1.75 microns/pixel , the 920 is @ the "standard" 1.4 microns.. in fact, there is no other smartphone currently on sale that uses bigger pixels than the Nokia N8. Things are getting crazy lately.. those new 13Mpix sensors are dipping down to 1.1 micron pixels, just for the sake of the "megapixel" war.. its silly.

    As soon as they published the white paper on the 920, I felt like it won't be very good... I just couldn't see how OIS would help with the quality, Yes.. it helps out by giving the opportunity to keep the shutter open for longer, but what do we do with all the noise that pours in with it ? The sensor simply can't accommodate for that, not at 1/3"

    Here is the white paper on the 920: http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/18242...review-820.pdf

    The 808 .. that is a whole different story, Nokia solved a bunch of issues which have been a problem in the p&s imaging industry for years in a very elegant way, and on top of that they put the whole thing in a proper smartphone.

    Here is the white paper on PureView PRO which is used in the 808.. its very informative: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?s7rlaa88o263oz2

    I really hope they can properly port it to Windows NT one day.. hopefully soon.
    Last edited by vlad0; 10-31-2012 at 08:31 PM.
    10-31-2012 08:22 PM
  10. DaveGx's Avatar
    Now it makes sense. It sure seemed like a lot of night shots were shown off over the past month or so, but I hardly recall any day shots.

    I really wanted the 920, partially for the much hyped camera. If it's not going to live up to the hype then I won't feel so bad that it's only on ATT
    10-31-2012 09:07 PM
  11. Xsever's Avatar
    10-31-2012 09:22 PM
  12. rareohs's Avatar
    Wow you people are already complaining about the camera before the phone is even really out yet? Seriously? We've had like maybe 4 or 5 people post pictures so far and all the sudden the 920 has an inferior camera and bla bla bla and Nokia are liars yada yada.

    Heres a fact for ya, great cameras can take crap photos and crap cameras can take great photos, there are a lot of variables to take into consideration when evaluating the quality of a photo and until we get some legitimate tests under proper scientific circumstances its impossible to say one way or the other if the 920 has a good camera. From what I've seen at least it looks light there are quite a few settings to play with in the camera app on WP8 and changing some settings up could make a huge difference in image quality especially in regards to sharpness or the lack thereof which is often the result of a low shutter speed or high iso setting.

    Either way its important that we don't jump to conclusions until we know more, it won't be long now before the NDA is up and we start seeing some reviews. Just this morning I read a tweet from Vlad Savov which seemed to indicate that the camera was excellent so I have a feeling that we're not going to be disappointed. Just stay cool everybody!


    Jesus H. Eff Me for reading every last post of this inane thread, and I can't believe it took until the almost-last post, but finally some sanity.

    Well said. Ansel Adams with a piece of crap 25 cent dimestore camera could slay any one of us with a $10,000 rig.

    Let's just wait until the phone is actually out, eh?
    10-31-2012 09:24 PM
  13. sgorveatt's Avatar
    I was wondering if the apperature is fixed at f/2.0? If it is, that would explain why focus appears to be such a small area. It's called depth of field and a small apperature number is great for creating that blurred background effect but not great for landscape shots.
    10-31-2012 09:26 PM
  14. Braumin's Avatar
    920
    http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/ca...test-large.jpg

    ip5
    http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/ca...hone-large.jpg


    I dont care if its software or hardware. The PHOTOS from the 920 are not as good as the ip5 in daylight. Not sure what a professional can do with a point and shoot taking a picture of a landscape a few hundred yards away across a river, but I don't see how it can get rid of the noise in this photos.

    Sure, if the camera software is fixed it could be better. I love how the ip5 software for its camera is likened to a crutch for inferior hardware, but Nokia's inferior software is not a big deal and will be fixed eventually to make it on par with a crappier camera from apple.
    This is all a bit fishy. Looking at those photos, they are not full res. They've been down sampled at the very least. The Lumia shot is only 2MP (and widescreen) and the iPhone is 1.5MP. Who did the compression? Were they just shot at low res? Something is up here and I agree with others. I'll wait for some legit reviews before I decide on what phone I am going to buy.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    10-31-2012 09:45 PM
  15. imanolsoliman's Avatar
    True, but your opportunity window for taking a better photograph is higher with a good camera that has a more forgiving "auto" mode and so on... like I said, I think that the 920 would be fine, but the quality is average, and way short of Nokia's best work.



    I would take those two over any of the "major" blogs... those two are legit :D


    The N8 has a bigger sensor, better jpeg processing (it seems), and probably better optics.

    The essential part is that the N8 shoots @ 1.75 microns/pixel , the 920 is @ the "standard" 1.4 microns.. in fact, there is no other smartphone currently on sale that uses bigger pixels than the Nokia N8. Things are getting crazy lately.. those new 13Mpix sensors are dipping down to 1.1 micron pixels, just for the sake of the "megapixel" war.. its silly.

    As soon as they published the white paper on the 920, I felt like it won't be very good... I just couldn't see how OIS would help with the quality, Yes.. it helps out by giving the opportunity to keep the shutter open for longer, but what do we do with all the noise that pours in with it ? The sensor simply can't accommodate for that, not at 1/3"

    Here is the white paper on the 920: http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/18242...review-820.pdf

    The 808 .. that is a whole different story, Nokia solved a bunch of issues which have been a problem in the p&s imaging industry for years in a very elegant way, and on top of that they put the whole thing in a proper smartphone.

    Here is the white paper on PureView PRO which is used in the 808.. its very informative: Nokia808PureView_Whitepaper.pdf

    I really hope they can properly port it to Windows NT one day.. hopefully soon.
    I tought the sensor in the 920 had bigger pixels just as N8... I bought that phone because it's sensor and versatility, the pics just don't look as saturated as the iPhone's or Android's devices, but they had more detail and lacked that "aggressive" postprocessing... Lumia phone is the opposite... -.-
    The OIS in the N8 would have improved the pictures in night mode... but with another sensor........ that's just hard... I liked the idea of taking decent indoors pics with the phone... and I was going to "switch to lumia"... now I don't know, I'm really disappointed, I didn't read the whitepaper before.
    Although, I still belive that postprocessing is too aggressive with noise reduction in daylight, the pics should look at least like iPhone 5, with that level of detail....
    10-31-2012 09:48 PM
  16. vlad0's Avatar
    I tought the sensor in the 920 had bigger pixels just as N8...
    They are certainly smaller than the ones in the N8 .. per the white paper I posted on last page:

    "Latest generation BSI sensor with 1.4 micron pixels"

    Here is how its calculated:

    8Mpix (3248 x 2448). Sensor size is 1/3.0" (4,8мм х 3,6 mm).

    In 1 mm. we have 1000 microns.

    4,8 х 1000 = 4800 microns across

    4800 / 3248 = 1,477** microns per pixels.

    Although, I still belive that postprocessing is too aggressive with noise reduction in daylight, the pics should look at least like iPhone 5, with that level of detail....
    Right, .. I am going to guess that the aggressive noise reductions is because of their effort to keep the noise down in low light, where you wouldn't expect good detail anyway, but the problem is that it doesn't "turn off" when you are shooting in daylight.. that is my guess.

    Either way, the problem of the small pixels/sensor size remains, and there is nothing they can do about in terms of software processing.. Apple got the maximum out of it I think, but still.. the difference is negligible.

    Now it makes sense. It sure seemed like a lot of night shots were shown off over the past month or so, but I hardly recall any day shots.
    Yup.. I don't know if you remember, but all the marketing leading up the 808's launch was actually done with the phone itself, and they were showing off all kinds of pictures with the phone.. very confident approach, and the product delivered exactly what they promised.

    With the 920 we got a few shots taken with a DSLR, and bunch of resized night shots.. If they were that confident in the quality, they would have done the same 808 style campaign for the 920.
    10-31-2012 10:19 PM
  17. VagrantWade's Avatar
    So how good is the image stabilization on the iPhone 5 and 8X?

    Because I am buying the 920 for the recording not the still images.
    10-31-2012 10:20 PM
  18. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ pretty much non existent compared to the 920.. OIS works really well for video.
    10-31-2012 10:22 PM
  19. VagrantWade's Avatar
    ^ pretty much non existent compared to the 920.. OIS works really well for video.
    I like this;

    Lumia 920 vs. Windows Phone 8X on Twitpic

    From an editor at The Verge.

    90% of my pictures are also taken in low light situations. So yay for me.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    10-31-2012 10:22 PM
  20. vlad0's Avatar
    For sure.. the 920 lets more light in and the jpeg processing takes care of some of the extra noise. Now, I don't know what balance they chose between high ISO and exposure time. Longer exposures won't work in a bar where everybody is moving, you need a fast shutter speed and a flash for a usable picture in situations like that.

    I am yet to see a 920 shot in bright sunlight...all the shots are taken in less than ideal conditions, so I still can't quite get a good feel for it.
    10-31-2012 10:25 PM
  21. SuddenlyDinosaur's Avatar
    For sure.. the 920 lets more light in and the jpeg processing takes care of some of the extra noise. Now, I don't know what balance they chose between high ISO and exposure time. Longer exposures won't work in a bar where everybody is moving, you need a fast shutter speed and a flash for a usable picture in situations like that.

    I am yet to see a 920 shot in bright sunlight...all the shots are taken in less than ideal conditions, so I still can't quite get a good feel for it.
    So, do you think that this can be fixed by a software update, or does there need to be a change in the hardware?
    10-31-2012 10:29 PM
  22. vlad0's Avatar
    So, do you think that this can be fixed by a software update, or does there need to be a change in the hardware?
    Which part ? The aggressive noise reductions (which seems to be present, I am not sure yet) can be adjusted via a software update.

    I noticed a similar behavior in the new LG .. something with a 13Mpix BSI sensor, very aggressive noise reduction, it destroys all the detail.

    The 900 got much better over time as far as remember, so... I am sure they will be working on it, but don't expect quantum leaps :)
    10-31-2012 10:31 PM
  23. Yang_H's Avatar
    From the cnet review, it is clear to me that Lumia 920's sensor is much nosier than iPhone5's. The noise reduction in 920's photo is very heavy, smearing a lot of fine details. The catch here is whether those two photos were taken at same ISO levels. If they were, then iPhone5 definitely has a superior sensor in terms of sensitivity/noise level. If it turned out that 920 aggressively uses higher ISOs under less than ideal lighting conditions, then we need to see more samples taken by 920 and iPhone5 at identical ISO. Aggressive ISO settings can be potentially fixed by camera software, but if 920 indeed has a nosier sensor then it'll be impossible for it to match iPhone 5.

    Those night photo samples of 920 do look impressive. However, I guess that's mostly because that 920's image-stabilized lens allows much longer exposure time at low ISO level. Other cameras have to bump up the ISO to increase the shutter speed in order to minimize the shaking, resulting in underexposed and less cleaner photos than 920's.
    Corday108 likes this.
    10-31-2012 10:44 PM
  24. vlad0's Avatar
    ^ It could be the sensor.. but I am thinking its more of a jpeg processing problem.

    The funny part is.. the iPhone uses a Sony sensor, and the Nokia 920 uses a Sharp sensor, co-developed with Nokia apparently. Nokia worked with Toshiba on the N8s and the 808s sensor.. but for some reason they switched to Sharp for that one.

    The few low light shots I've seen are all shot at 800 iso, which is... "normal", most smartphones do the same.
    10-31-2012 10:55 PM
  25. dukrem's Avatar
    From the cnet review, it is clear to me that Lumia 920's sensor is much nosier than iPhone5's. The noise reduction in 920's photo is very heavy, smearing a lot of fine details. The catch here is whether those two photos were taken at same ISO levels. If they were, then iPhone5 definitely has a superior sensor in terms of sensitivity/noise level. If it turned out that 920 aggressively uses higher ISOs under less than ideal lighting conditions, then we need to see more samples taken by 920 and iPhone5 at identical ISO. Aggressive ISO settings can be potentially fixed by camera software, but if 920 indeed has a nosier sensor then it'll be impossible for it to match iPhone 5.

    Those night photo samples of 920 do look impressive. However, I guess that's mostly because that 920's image-stabilized lens allows much longer exposure time at low ISO level. Other cameras have to bump up the ISO to increase the shutter speed in order to minimize the shaking, resulting in underexposed and less cleaner photos than 920's.

    The effect you see on the lumia is the result of overly aggressive noise reduction, not noise itself. It reduces sharpness and you get that typical appearance of pixels that appear to have 'jumped off' the object they belong to (ie if there is a white object on a dark background you will see a couple of white pixels over the dark background just off the edge of the white object).

    If you zoom in on both full size images the iphone clearly has a LOT more noise. It is especially obvious in the clouds/sky at the top. Whether the fact that there is apparently less noise in the lumia is down to the huge amount of processing/noise reduction that has occurred or whether it naturally has less noise is unclear until nokia patches the software to tone down NR for daylight shots.
    10-31-2012 11:46 PM
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