11-06-2012 08:20 PM
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  1. aubreyq's Avatar
    The NUMBER dude, THE NUMBER! (7.9)
    Stop the presses! Windows Phone is going down because of this!!

    LMAO!

    The Focus is superior to the Omnia you where not missing much. The phone is like a mullet, business in the front, complete mess on the back.

    Anyway the Focus user was actually on pre-Nodo he didn't had copy/paste. BTW my Optimus problems started as soon as I got the Mango update, all my praised turned into frustration as lots of bugs and battery drain appeared.
    I know Mango jacked some stuff up, but have you tried a new battery, maybe with a higher mah? I got a new battery for my Focus and the difference is day and night. Makes me worry about switching to phones with non-replaceable batteries. I'll have to take that chance, though.
    11-02-2012 10:06 AM
  2. pjrupert's Avatar
    ...does everything they can to promote apple because that's what they like. i'm exceedingly frustrated with their reviews, with the exception of their video reviews. Normally the videos are much better. i'm getting sick of their attempts to turn a review into an editorial.
    11-02-2012 10:07 AM
  3. 1jaxstate1's Avatar
    Do you think they are promoting apple because they have some grudge against other companies, or are they promoting apple products because they feel apple have superior products? If it's the latter, it seems that they are doing nothing more than their jobs.
    ...does everything they can to promote apple because that's what they like. i'm exceedingly frustrated with their reviews, with the exception of their video reviews. Normally the videos are much better. i'm getting sick of their attempts to turn a review into an editorial.
    11-02-2012 10:13 AM
  4. MaulerX's Avatar
    They promote Apple and Android because they have a strong hate towards Microsoft. Simple as that. It is clear as day. They don't even hide it. The Verge were the ones to publicly and blatantly say that Windows was a Cancer that needed to be eradicated.

    They gave the iPad Mini an Ecosystem score of 10 and less for Windows 8 on PC. Really?? How ironic because the first thing people will do is connect and sync their iOS devices to a computer.
    11-02-2012 10:29 AM
  5. jmerrey's Avatar
    If you really think it's biased, look at their recent Nexus 4 review. Josh LOVES nexus devices. The review states it's clearly the best android phone on the market. Score? 8.3. The latest Lumia got a 7.9. Very comparable scores.
    11-02-2012 10:31 AM
  6. aubreyq's Avatar
    The Verge were the ones to publicly and blatantly say that Windows was a Cancer that needed to be eradicated.
    I know at least Topolsky doesn't care for Windows at all.

    How ironic because the first thing people will do is connect and sync their iOS devices to a computer.
    You don't need to sync iOS devices to PCs anymore. Maybe to transfer a video, but that's about it.
    11-02-2012 10:42 AM
  7. Coreldan's Avatar
    If you really think it's biased, look at their recent Nexus 4 review. Josh LOVES nexus devices. The review states it's clearly the best android phone on the market. Score? 8.3. The latest Lumia got a 7.9. Very comparable scores.
    Maybe it's not that they are biased for Android or WP, but that they are biased towards Apple.

    As has been said, and it's not Verge only, it seems that Apple products start at 10 for no reason and few points are redacted if appropriate, whereas others will start basically at 0 and have to earn their points from there.

    Or then just the amount of apps directly correlates to final score :D
    11-02-2012 10:45 AM
  8. freestaterocker's Avatar
    Well guys the thing is, until Microsoft has a great Ecosystem and lots of quality apps, is hard to give it the same score as the iphone or top notch android device.

    Let's say the ATIV ends up exactly if not a bit better than the Galaxy 3. It's still going to get a lower score and it deserves a lower score.

    In Windows Phone 7.5 we suffered from underpowered phones and unbaked OS. Now we have great phones (back before Nokia rubbed me the wrong way I only had one complain, where's the cool phones? I didn't stop that until I saw the ATIV and the 8X just immediately won me over) and a good OS but we still lack the tight integration Android has and the thousands of quality apps Iphone has.

    I will personally be weary of recommending the ATIV over the GS3 to anyone, because Windows Phone still lacks things people want, is not a complete OS and the phones suffered because of that.
    Problem is apps quantity/quality != ecosystem. Apps are only PART of an ecosystem. Can you order Hulu programming from your iPhone and watch it on your TV through your gaming system/computer? No. (at least not until the SmartGlass app reaches iTunes...) Can you proofread that excel document from the bar on ladies night before your boss looks at it Friday morning while waiting for your drink order on your Droid? No. (1 I'm not a lady, but it's the only reason I can think of to be at a bar on Thursday night-working hung-over SUCKS- and 2 As these reviewers are so quick to point out, substitute apps don't count, so GoogleDocs is disqualified here. You can't have it both ways) Microsoft's 3 screens is the most comprehensive and complete smartphone experience available, period. App count is a SMALL piece of an ecoSYSTEM.
    11-02-2012 10:51 AM
  9. Winterfang's Avatar
    Apps are what separated a smartphone form a feature phone.
    11-02-2012 11:32 AM
  10. Coreldan's Avatar
    Apps are what separated a smartphone form a feature phone.
    In a way I beg to differ. Early smartphones didn't really have apps as we know them now, they just did a lot directly out of the box that featurephones didn't.

    Naturally if you see the iPhones as first smartphones, maybe then, but that's only the first mainstream smartphone if even that. Nokia for one had smartphones before Apple had even thought about making phones :P

    I have like basically one 3rd party app on my N8, does that mean it's very close to a featurephone? Naturally the word "app" is a very generic word so I guess the features on N8 can be seen as built-in apps, but they sort of arnt.. they are just built into the OS. At the same time I can also assure that none of your feature phones would do as much as my N8 did even without a single app installed :D
    11-02-2012 11:35 AM
  11. theeboredone's Avatar
    It still boggles my mind how the Lumia 920 seem to struggle in some parts of the review. Okay, it's fair game if you want to say that the camera doesn't do well in certain areas compared to say, the Iphone 5. However, the 920 is the only phone with OIS along with a bunch of abundant camera features, which I find a shame doesn't help in its score. It almost seems like were this the Iphone 5 in place, you would see a "10" on the camera for whatever reason.

    I mean, just look at the Nexus 4 review. The reviewer even admits that the low light shot isn't as good as the Lumia 920, but due to additional software, it is going to score the same as the 920 in that department. Either they fail to take into account the 920 software, or there is some bias being played here.

    All in all, I would say 95% of reviewers have some hidden bias, and it's always going to show somehow, someway in reviews.
    11-02-2012 11:47 AM
  12. aubreyq's Avatar
    In a way I beg to differ. Early smartphones didn't really have apps as we know them now, they just did a lot directly out of the box that featurephones didn't.
    You're right. Heck, the App Store didn't come to the iPhone until a year later. Smartphones were mostly about email/messaging and other business-oriented stuff.
    11-02-2012 11:51 AM
  13. mcphersc's Avatar
    You're right. Heck, the App Store didn't come to the iPhone until a year later. Smartphones were mostly about email/messaging and other business-oriented stuff.
    I don't even pay attention to the "ecosystem" section of these reviews anymore. Microsoft is paying the price of coming to the market later than everyone else. Windows store rate of growth has been incredible compared to all the other platforms (not something reviewers every seem to take note of). Of course its not gonna catch up to the iPhone, but I think Microsoft has laid the foundation for there to be significant developer interest in the platform.

    We'll have to see how the ecosystem develops, I'm betting on Microsoft.
    11-02-2012 12:28 PM
  14. Winterfang's Avatar
    It still boggles my mind how the Lumia 920 seem to struggle in some parts of the review. Okay, it's fair game if you want to say that the camera doesn't do well in certain areas compared to say, the Iphone 5. However, the 920 is the only phone with OIS along with a bunch of abundant camera features, which I find a shame doesn't help in its score. It almost seems like were this the Iphone 5 in place, you would see a "10" on the camera for whatever reason.

    I mean, just look at the Nexus 4 review. The reviewer even admits that the low light shot isn't as good as the Lumia 920, but due to additional software, it is going to score the same as the 920 in that department. Either they fail to take into account the 920 software, or there is some bias being played here.

    All in all, I would say 95% of reviewers have some hidden bias, and it's always going to show somehow, someway in reviews.
    I saw a review once of the GS3 vs OneX he said the One camera was superior but the GS3 had better software. And gave the better camera to the GS3.

    Is not bias.
    11-02-2012 12:43 PM
  15. 1jaxstate1's Avatar
    Early smartphone did in fact have "apps". They might not have been called app, but they had programs that you can load. I had "app" on my WM 6.0 phone years before the iPhone. They just wan't called apps. I use to load cabs on my device log before the term apps were popular.

    Just because you decide not to use them, doesn't mean they are not available. Of course a most feature phone won't do as much as a smartphone, even without apps.
    In a way I beg to differ. Early smartphones didn't really have apps as we know them now, they just did a lot directly out of the box that featurephones didn't.

    Naturally if you see the iPhones as first smartphones, maybe then, but that's only the first mainstream smartphone if even that. Nokia for one had smartphones before Apple had even thought about making phones :P

    I have like basically one 3rd party app on my N8, does that mean it's very close to a featurephone? Naturally the word "app" is a very generic word so I guess the features on N8 can be seen as built-in apps, but they sort of arnt.. they are just built into the OS. At the same time I can also assure that none of your feature phones would do as much as my N8 did even without a single app installed :D
    11-02-2012 02:08 PM
  16. AngryNil's Avatar
    Second best cameraphone in the world gets an 8/10. Only one device had any LTE problems out of several review devices they had, but reception (which covers connectivity in general) got a 7/10.

    Nexus 4: no LTE at all, reception 6/10. "Good" camera, plainly admitted it is not the "quantum leap forward" the 920 is, yet 8/10.

    Oh, the beautiful double standards. Also, the Nexus 4 should have been significantly boosted when thinking worldwide appeal due to its low price. Should have been 8.0 for the Lumia and 8.5 to 9.0 for the Nexus.
    11-02-2012 08:31 PM
  17. brmiller1976's Avatar
    All the throwing about of marketing terms like OIS, PureMotion HD+, etc. doesn't matter.

    Specs don't sell phones -- user experience sells phones.

    Apple has always been behind in the specs, but they sell 100 million phones a year because the experience is very good for a lot of people.

    Nokia's strategy appears to have been to cram every buzzword possible into a phone and then tout it. Besides making the phone very heavy and thick, it also escalated expectations around camera performance.

    Fair or unfair, most people were led to believe that the "PureView" would rival DSLR (like it does on the 808) and that things would generally be best-in-class. The moment ANY cracks appear, ratings start to decline. Like the collective groan when it was discovered that the "PureView" would be 8.7 megapixel and not 40+ megapixel.

    Note that Apple doesn't film lots of videos claiming that their camera is the best ever made for a phone. They just say "it's a good camera." As a result, you don't see camera comparos hammering the iPhone 5 for its camera issues (which do exist). (And they also were able to keep that device thin and light as a result of not focusing on the camera).

    Most people just want a "good enough" camera. But if you claim your camera is one of the best ever, and worth compromises like added weight and thickness, and it's not consistently delivering the best results, you're going to get dinged. That doesn't make The Verge biased.

    I also doubt the 920 would fare well in a photography magazine, but the complaint would be different -- that "it's not fair to compare the 920 to a real camera." Except that Nokia itself claimed comparability (and even tried to simulate it with CameraGate).
    Last edited by brmiller1976; 11-02-2012 at 08:52 PM.
    Smg-Uk likes this.
    11-02-2012 08:46 PM
  18. brmiller1976's Avatar
    You're right. Heck, the App Store didn't come to the iPhone until a year later. Smartphones were mostly about email/messaging and other business-oriented stuff.
    Actually, most smartphones (even of the time) were about apps. One of the big arguments that Palm and RIM made against the original iPhone was that it didn't run apps. Ironically, Apple resisted it and then tried to palm off (hee hee her) "web apps" as a solution.

    That failed, they relented, cloned the Handango store from Palm on the iPhone, and designated it the "app store." And went from claiming that apps were geeky and stupid to "apps are essential."

    If you want a good laugh, check out the Apple fanboy sites of the day and their responses to "But I need apps." They scream that it's ridiculous and that the "core experience matters most." Now, check out an article written by the same author -- it's all about how app count is the only thing that matters, and lack of some arbitrarily-designated "essential" app is an ecosystem killer.
    11-02-2012 08:49 PM
  19. firstness's Avatar
    Apple didn't release apps for iPhone 1.0 because the SDK was not ready. It was an incredibly complex task to build the entire sandboxed app environment from scratch, with a quality future-proof SDK that could support the app boom that followed. Either the iPhone would have been delayed an extra year if they had waited for 3rd party app support to be ready, or the quality of the SDK would have suffered.
    11-02-2012 08:56 PM
  20. Winterfang's Avatar
    Second best cameraphone in the world gets an 8/10. Only one device had any LTE problems out of several review devices they had, but reception (which covers connectivity in general) got a 7/10.

    Nexus 4: no LTE at all, reception 6/10. "Good" camera, plainly admitted it is not the "quantum leap forward" the 920 is, yet 8/10.

    Oh, the beautiful double standards. Also, the Nexus 4 should have been significantly boosted when thinking worldwide appeal due to its low price. Should have been 8.0 for the Lumia and 8.5 to 9.0 for the Nexus.
    Second best cameraphone? I know the 808 is the absolute best but Iphone 5, GS3, OneX, N8 are also contenders.

    There's more than your points of what affects a score. The Nexus 4 is like what half the price of the Lumia? Is also not exclusive to AT&T, the screen is comparable but bigger and the Ecosystem, OS and Apps are subjectively better.

    This might be a bit silly


    But you have to take into account the software behind the camera. So far Pureview is not the leap beyond other cameras we all expect it.

    TL;DR different strokes for different folks.
    11-02-2012 09:00 PM
  21. Illicit Hero's Avatar
    Second best cameraphone? I know the 808 is the absolute best but Iphone 5, GS3, OneX, N8 are also contenders.

    There's more than your points of what affects a score. The Nexus 4 is like what half the price of the Lumia? Is also not exclusive to AT&T, the screen is comparable but bigger and the Ecosystem, OS and Apps are subjectively better.

    This might be a bit silly
    Click to view quoted image


    But you have to take into account the software behind the camera. So far Pureview is not the leap beyond other cameras we all expect it.

    TL;DR different strokes for different folks.
    One thing about theverge is don't look at the numbers, read the review and make an opinion.
    aubreyq likes this.
    11-03-2012 01:04 AM
  22. Joelist's Avatar
    You do realize that the Verge is a joke in the "tech site" world. Basically they totally destroyed their credibility with that stupid remark about Windows being a cancer - it basically alerted everyone not to place any stock in reviews they do of anything Microsoft.

    Their cred is in the same tank ZDNet's went into back in the 90s when they basically fabricated a story about Windows 2000 shipping with 50,000 known defects. Even doing a "clarification" (which was basically a retraction) didn't restore their cred.
    11-03-2012 01:40 AM
  23. Heron_Kusanagi's Avatar
    Tech journalism feels like its going the way of the cable news networks. Not in a good way too. There's a lot of polarizing opinion, and if you aren't with us, you might as well don't exist.

    Still, Nokia getting any news is more important than it getting no news like how RIM is doing. There's still quite a bit of negative news, but Nokia crafted something great and we will see how the sales go.

    By the way, at least the 8X is a worthy contender, and I think that generates a good buzz in WP8, with 2 active OEMs trying to win marketshare. Only drives innovation. The small design flaw of having that standby button on top is a deal breaker for me though.
    aubreyq likes this.
    11-03-2012 04:35 AM
  24. AngryNil's Avatar
    Nice argument, Verge. Average users don't want stable videos, less blurry pictures or visible shots in bad lighting. No, they want oversaturated colours. Good job Winterfang, nice to see you've met your match in unjustifiably skewed opinions in Joshua Topolsky.

    The Verge couldn't give this camera a good score. They'd lose too much face after overblowing the fake video.

    Nice to see you've overlooked the All About Windows Phone comparison, which is easily the most in-depth camera shoot-out of the pack. The One X can't stand up to the iPhone or S3 and they can't stand up to the 920. Comparing "average user" shots are stupid because average users post terrible shots taken with their VGA FFCs.
    Last edited by irlju; 11-03-2012 at 07:46 AM.
    aubreyq and socialcarpet like this.
    11-03-2012 07:39 AM
  25. Winterfang's Avatar
    Actually the 920 has a problem with blurry pictures, other cameras like the GS3 ones are a lot sharper.
    Smg-Uk likes this.
    11-03-2012 09:07 AM
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