12-14-2012 12:33 PM
75 123
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft for whatever reason isn't pushing anything out as it is I am sure the phone software is manipulated by the OEMs and the Carriers.
    Not really. First one must understand that the OS and the firmware are two different things. Microsoft delivers the OS and HTC has neither the ability nor the rights to change anything in that package. The firmware is the exact opposite, as it is developed primarily by HTC. Both OS and firmware changes can be shipped in a single update, but that is the only thing they have in common. The same applies for any of the other OEM's except Nokia, who could theoretically also make changes to the OS.

    Again, carriers don't manipulate anything anywhere.
    dabdoub81 likes this.
    12-12-2012 02:11 AM
  2. Duvi's Avatar
    I really don't see the point in making a new thread for every little tiny bit of question that comes to mind with these phones.

    Sure we all like to discuss everything, but this just sets a new low.
    Off topic... I hated that clown!


    On topic... it doesn't matter IMO (to OP).
    12-12-2012 02:25 AM
  3. ryeworth's Avatar
    Answer: This was primarily to fix a specific crash that only the 8X had.
    12-12-2012 02:35 AM
  4. jaj324's Avatar
    Answer: This was primarily to fix a specific crash that only the 8X had.
    show me some documentation on that...
    12-12-2012 08:58 AM
  5. jdhooghe's Avatar
    Show me documentation on any of this, jaj324. All of this is speculation and whining. The update will come when it comes. Want to know why the lumias aren't getting it? Ask elop or some customer service rep.
    Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
    12-12-2012 11:09 AM
  6. brmiller1976's Avatar
    The 8X is the "Signature" Windows Phone. It's also the only WP high-end device to have a large number of unlocked devices sold worldwide (Nokia went the carrier-exclusive locked-down route for the 920). It's likely both easier and more straight-forward to update the 8X first (starting with all those unlocked devices).

    Additionally, the random reboot issue seemed to be hitting 8X handsets harder than 920s, so the update was "more urgent" for those devices.
    12-12-2012 11:19 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    There is no conspiracy theory involved here. There is no WP overlord deciding which devices shall be blessed with updates first. Least of all, it has nothing to do with the 8X being a "signature" phone. Reading anything into this is a complete waste of time. Reality is much more mundane. HTC was simply ready earlier.

    Nokia tells me they have WP updates from Microsoft that are ready for deployment to their devices, but they also have other issues they would like to address with the same update. The overhead involved in distributing an update is very large, so distributing two smaller updates requires much more effort than distributing one larger one. Possibly HTC didn't have anything else they needed to address and just deployed what they got from Microsoft. I don't know, but whatever the reason is, it isn't anything more meaningful than that.
    tumaykilinc and xbilly like this.
    12-12-2012 12:11 PM
  8. Ekin Koc's Avatar
    What I don't like about this update procedure is that not all 8X phones are getting the update at the same time. I mean, it's ok for two different devices to have a gap. Maybe Nokia had other problems to solve. But the fact that some 8X owners are waiting still? Apple managed to do this since the first iPhone without problems. They can still manage to push major updates to millions and millions of iOS devices and Microsoft/HTC can't? To be honest, messing up an update on iOS would be much more devastating than on WP8, given the install base.

    Now I know that I'll be waiting for the update to appear when they start pushing it to Nokia 920. I really don't like it.

    Also, no change logs? Really? Is imitating Samsung a thing now?
    Last edited by Ekin Koc; 12-12-2012 at 03:55 PM.
    12-12-2012 03:44 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    Apple managed to do this since the first iPhone without problems. They can still manage to push major updates to millions and millions of iOS devices and Microsoft/HTC can't?
    No. You are forgetting that the traditional method of updating an iOS device has always been to do it through iTunes. OTA updates for iOS have only been available since iOS5, and those updates are also passed out to a couple thousand devices at a time. There is no difference.

    That Apple was able to simultaneously update millions of devices through iTunes proves that overloading update servers isn't really a problem. The real issue is mobile network bandwidth.

    With the rest of your statement I agree.
    12-12-2012 05:15 PM
  10. snowmutt's Avatar
    Why not?
    12-12-2012 06:01 PM
  11. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    No. You are forgetting that the traditional method of updating an iOS device has always been to do it through iTunes. OTA updates for iOS have only been available since iOS5, and those updates are also passed out to a couple thousand devices at a time. There is no difference.

    That Apple was able to simultaneously update millions of devices through iTunes proves that overloading update servers isn't really a problem. The real issue is mobile network bandwidth.

    With the rest of your statement I agree.
    Precisely, and even the Galaxy S3 updates get rolled out in stages, not all at once. People are just stupid and impatient.
    12-12-2012 07:11 PM
  12. AngryNil's Avatar
    Makes the 8X more enticing, might actually get one :]
    12-12-2012 09:40 PM
  13. socialcarpet's Avatar
    What evidence is there that the HTC 8X is the flagship signature leading device thing? It seems to me both the 8X and 920 got equal attention from Microsoft.
    It is, Microsoft says so themselves. The reason why is simple. HTC was willing to name the phone "Windows Phone 8X" and not do too much customization so Microsoft could have their own sort of Nexus device. Nokia was unwilling to drop the Lumia brand because they believe (and rightfully so) that the Lumia brand carries more cachet than "windows phone"
    12-12-2012 09:50 PM
  14. snaqvi91's Avatar
    I want actually challenging that. I just wanted to know how people know or came to the conclusion that the HTC 8X was the signature device. I didn't know how else to put it so it came as though I was challenging the idea that the HTC is the signature device.

    On another note you might be interested in what HTC's CPO or whatever said about calling the HTC 8X like the Nexus of WP8. The interview is on the verge, it's quite recent. He days there was zero input from Microsoft and I got the impression that he was rejecting the idea that the HTC 8X is like a Nexus.
    12-12-2012 10:11 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    I want actually challenging that. I just wanted to know how people know or came to the conclusion that the HTC 8X was the signature device. I didn't know how else to put it so it came as though I was challenging the idea that the HTC is the signature device.

    On another note you might be interested in what HTC's CPO or whatever said about calling the HTC 8X like the Nexus of WP8. The interview is on the verge, it's quite recent. He days there was zero input from Microsoft and I got the impression that he was rejecting the idea that the HTC 8X is like a Nexus.
    The designation "signature phone" is important only in terms of marketing and completely without consequence to the consumer. At least at this time.

    The main benefit of having a Nexus device is getting the stock Android experience without carrier and OEM bloatware, and the timely OS updates. If carriers had no say in the WP update process, every WP8 device would enjoy those same benefits.
    12-12-2012 11:09 PM
  16. Slai's Avatar
    HTC was willing to name the phone "Windows Phone 8X" and not do too much customization so Microsoft could have their own sort of Nexus device
    Yet its the worst of the top WP8 phone lineup. Greek tragedy much?
    12-13-2012 01:23 AM
  17. Michael-Dallas's Avatar
    For windows phone this is simply false.OEM's certainly configure their devices differently for each carrier, but carriers aren't involved in the development of those devices. Carriers certainly don't "add changes and fixes".



    As stated above, AT&T never touches the devices firmware. OEM's may modify some configuration files on their behalf, but that is as far as it goes.
    Where do you think the carrier settings and AT&T-branded bloatware comes from? Once the carrier gets the update package from the OEM, it's theirs to do whatever they want (add/update/remove/etc) and put it through lab testing. I'll be more than happy confirm w/ my friend, who's been on both sides of the fence (OEM and now carrier).
    12-13-2012 02:58 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Where do you think the carrier settings and AT&T-branded bloatware comes from? Once the carrier gets the update package from the OEM, it's theirs to do whatever they want (add/update/remove/etc) and put it through lab testing. I'll be more than happy confirm w/ my friend, who's been on both sides of the fence (OEM and now carrier).
    Yes, please go and discuss it with your friend. You're wrong.

    What you are describing is Android's "anything goes" approach, although even then your description isn't quite accurate.

    Most importantly, your statement that carriers are free to add/remove/modify a WP update package to whatever extent they please is completely false. In fact, update packages aren't even delivered to carriers in a way that they could easily modify (if at all).

    What carriers can do is develop their own WP apps. Carriers can then upload those apps to the windows phone app store or their own app distribution hubs. That is all.

    Depending on which carrier ordered the device, OEM's will typically install slightly different firmware variants. These firmwares include configuration files which specify carrier settings and the apps the device should download during initial setup. That is how carrier apps get onto your phone. It's also the reason those apps can be uninstalled just like any other app. None of those apps are "backed" into the ROM as they are on android, which they certainly would be if carriers had the amount of freedom you claim they do.

    I don't know where you are getting your information from, but you need to re-evaluate your sources.
    Last edited by a5cent; 12-13-2012 at 06:46 PM.
    12-13-2012 06:29 PM
  19. gilesjuk's Avatar
    That Apple was able to simultaneously update millions of devices through iTunes proves that overloading update servers isn't really a problem.
    With iOS every time a big release would come out the Apple servers would get overloaded. Your download would be slow or fail.
    12-14-2012 05:03 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    With iOS every time a big release would come out the Apple servers would get overloaded. Your download would be slow or fail.
    Ok, I've not experienced that in my corner of the world. Still. The point is, doing updates OTA, everyone must restrict the amount of people that can update simultaneously. It's works identically for all OS'. Over landlines you can apparently cause difficulties too, but you can make updates visible to everyone at once if you so choose
    12-14-2012 05:31 AM
  21. DanBB1's Avatar
    HTC 8S and 8X both are 'signature' devices and were revealed as such. 8S is no less 'signature' device than 8X. Other than that, being a 'signature' device means absolutely nothing. Just a marketing gimmick MS gave to HTC to support HTC's sales. Seems to work in my opinnion. HTC probably didn't have to modify the firmware too much, where as Nokia might have little bit more. Or Nokia wants to do more with the update(camera issues for example).. What difference does it make? I didn't see any major features and all off contract phones will probably have within a month or so.
    12-14-2012 05:51 AM
  22. berty6294's Avatar
    Yet its the worst of the top WP8 phone lineup. Greek tragedy much?
    Haha somebody is quite the joker!

    Hate to burst your bubbles but there are just as many people who think the 8x is superior to the 920 as there are vice versa! I actually have a couple friends that started with the 920 and traded it in for the 8x after a couple weeks! The 8x offers just as much as the 920!
    12-14-2012 06:30 AM
  23. Michael-Dallas's Avatar
    Yes, please go and discuss it with your friend. You're wrong.

    What you are describing is Android's "anything goes" approach, although even then your description isn't quite accurate.

    Most importantly, your statement that carriers are free to add/remove/modify a WP update package to whatever extent they please is completely false. In fact, update packages aren't even delivered to carriers in a way that they could easily modify (if at all).

    What carriers can do is develop their own WP apps. Carriers can then upload those apps to the windows phone app store or their own app distribution hubs. That is all.

    Depending on which carrier ordered the device, OEM's will typically install slightly different firmware variants. These firmwares include configuration files which specify carrier settings and the apps the device should download during initial setup. That is how carrier apps get onto your phone. It's also the reason those apps can be uninstalled just like any other app. None of those apps are "backed" into the ROM as they are on android, which they certainly would be if carriers had the amount of freedom you claim they do.

    I don't know where you are getting your information from, but you need to re-evaluate your sources.
    I just discussed w/ my friend and he said carrier can add their stuff, but Microsoft limits what the carrier, in this case AT&T, can add/change; however, it's mostly testing to make sure the update does not crater the network. My source worked for Nokia for over a decade, then switched to AT&T Foundry. If my info is no good, then I'll happily go back into lurking.

    Where do you get your info?

    For everybody else, I've been told that Nokia recently released a second update to AT&T, a week 49 build, which most likely has fixes for the week 46 build.
    12-14-2012 10:30 AM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    @Michael-Dallas

    I work in the same industry as your friend, although tied closer to Microsoft than to Nokia, and also in Europe.

    Anyway, your description sounds much better to me now:

    he said carriers can add their stuff, but Microsoft limits what the carrier, in this case AT&T, can add/change; however, it's mostly testing to make sure the update does not crater the network.
    Yes, carriers are limited. That is a far cry from being able to "do whatever they want (add/update/remove/etc)". But what are those limitations? They are precisely the things I mentioned earlier. Carriers can add any apps they want, but they can't screw around with the OS in any way. IMO that is a very big advantage over the "anything goes" approach of Android. It gets every WP device very close to being the equivalent of a Nexus device. I want people to understand that, which is why I jump on statements like the one you previously made.

    Skype is somewhat special, as carriers may ask OEM's that the devices headed to their network don't come preinstalled with that app. The ability to satisfy that request is one of the reasons Skype isn't baked into the OS like other 1st party apps. If you consider Skype part of the OS (I do not), then you might think of that as "removing something from the OS". I would concede that point.

    Just as your friend said, carriers get early access to updates so they can test the update on their networks prior to releasing it. I am unaware of any carrier doing anything to an update that goes any further. Finally, even those things that are specific to the carrier (like configuring carrier settings) are handled by the OEMs, not the carrier.

    Otherwise your info is good, no need to lurk
    Michael-Dallas likes this.
    12-14-2012 11:32 AM
  25. Jed Cutler's Avatar
    Never mind the OTA Update, I'm still waiting for the Lumia 920 to be sold here in the Philippines. hehehe...Icebreaker.
    12-14-2012 12:33 PM
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