10-16-2016 05:59 AM
37 12
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  1. Torontonian22's Avatar
    Hey All,

    I've been running the insider preview on my 930 for a while now and was wondering about picture quality... I took some great pics earlier this year and early summer but I was still using W8.1 back then. I realized that the DNG files were actually looking sharp with lots of details and editing these files in lightroom was great in terms of rendering.

    Since I switched to the Insider preview, I didn't actually had a lot of time to take pictures. In late August I went on vacation and already noticed a huge drop in picture quality for DNG pics. Last weekend, I went out of town and took a few shots with my 930. Once again, the result on the big screen was really disappointing.

    Compared to the pics I used to capture with my 930 with 8.1, it seems that the camera performs fairly poorly with W10M. It's a preview and most likely normal at this point but I wanted to ask you folks if you have also noticed that or if I'm the only one. In that case, then my 930 is acting up. If not, then I'm relieved and I'm going to roll back to 8.1 ASAP.

    Just an FYI, I use Lumia camera 5.

    Cheers!
    10-15-2015 03:26 PM
  2. chris_gt's Avatar
    Can't say for the 930 since I haven't enrolled mine (daily driver)

    I have used it on my old 925 and did notice that low light photo quality had gone down the toilet compared to Lumia Camera 4.xx on 8.1.

    So maybe the OS has something to do with this.
    hamka787 likes this.
    10-15-2015 06:38 PM
  3. onetwright's Avatar
    hmmm...I haven't checked that yet. I've got a 1020 on 10 which I'll be using this weekend at a wedding. I'm sure there will be some good low light opportunities. I'll check it out
    10-16-2015 11:30 AM
  4. Torontonian22's Avatar
    Thanks for the input guys. I rolled back to W8.1 and will test de camera again to see if I can notice the difference or not.

    I have to say that low light performance became terrible with W10M preview. Even if it's a preview, the difference was pretty shocking. Let's assume it's a driver issue. However, I also noticed a drop in quality even in daylight. This was more concerning to me.

    BTW, rolling back to 8.1 was kind of a bumpy ride. After a few hours, the process is still not complete.... first, windows device recovery tool couldn't recognize my device. I manually hard reset my phone. Now, I'm getting an error 80070490 when syncing my microsoft account... this is really an issue that MS needs to work on.... so far my contact list is still not up to date, my emails and messages either...

    Apart from that, it's weird but being back to 8.1 is a breath of fresh air. Way smoother, nicer, more intuitive... The only thing I miss from W10M is the tiny space between tiles. Apart from that, I think I actually like 8.1 better.

    Anyway, thanks guys for the replies, I'll check the picture quality and will update the thread with my findings, whatever my findings are :)
    10-17-2015 11:21 AM
  5. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    There's no difference on quality. The software still the same and the pathetic algorithm that make the post process still the same too. But Lumia Camera is bugged as hell on Windows 10 Mobile. The experience is just terrible. Slow, have a lot of crashes, etc.

    But system have no interference on picture quality. Only the software that take shots. If you use Oneshot or ProShoot you will see very different aproach, since they don't have this poor algorithm that destroy almost every picture on Lumia 930.
    10-17-2015 03:48 PM
  6. PauloP's Avatar
    The updated Windows Camera app has 4K video, but the bitrate has been lowered from 58 to 48 Mbps at 30fps.
    10-18-2015 08:35 PM
  7. Torontonian22's Avatar
    There's no difference on quality. The software still the same and the pathetic algorithm that make the post process still the same too. But Lumia Camera is bugged as hell on Windows 10 Mobile. The experience is just terrible. Slow, have a lot of crashes, etc.

    But system have no interference on picture quality. Only the software that take shots. If you use Oneshot or ProShoot you will see very different aproach, since they don't have this poor algorithm that destroy almost every picture on Lumia 930.
    I finally took a few shots now that I'm back to 8.1 and I can now tell you there is a clear difference in the output. I reckon that Lumia camera (and most apps actually) is painful to use on w10m though (I didn't try the latest version yet, it may have changed).

    Now, the first pic was taken in almost a pitch black environment with my 930 using 8.1, saved as DNG. As you can see, the focus isn't perfect due to the lack of light however, even if the conditions were very challenging, there is still a lot of details that were captured and the noise, after post-processing in Lightroom, is really reasonnable considering the lack of light around. So, keep in mind that I'm taking the worst conditions possible for this shot.

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg


    The second pic was taken in broad daylight, with the lumia 930, still in DNG format but this time with W10M. Post-processed with Lightroom. Conditions were close to ideal in terms of lighting. If you zoom in, you'll see how terrible the picture actually looks. It's super grainy, details and colours are washed out and I already decreased the amount of digital noise... the original pic was simply terrible to look at.

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg


    On the one hand, a pic taken in the worst condition possible with a surprisingly good output and on the other hand, a pic taken in broad daylight, same phone, dng format, but different OS and a disgusting output. I didn't even show you the pic taken in low light with W10M...

    To be fair, here's a pic taken in broad daylight with the lumia 930, WP8.1, DNG format, post processed in lightroom. Zoom in it and compare it to the one taken with W10M. According to you, is the quality the same?

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg
    10-24-2015 11:11 AM
  8. Koen C's Avatar
    I just changed my camera app to "360 Sight" because of the standard app not working like it should on Windows 10.
    10-24-2015 11:45 AM
  9. Elitewolf's Avatar
    windows 10 lets you change your default camera app to another camera app not made by microsoft?
    10-25-2015 01:58 AM
  10. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I finally took a few shots now that I'm back to 8.1 and I can now tell you there is a clear difference in the output. I reckon that Lumia camera (and most apps actually) is painful to use on w10m though (I didn't try the latest version yet, it may have changed).

    Now, the first pic was taken in almost a pitch black environment with my 930 using 8.1, saved as DNG. As you can see, the focus isn't perfect due to the lack of light however, even if the conditions were very challenging, there is still a lot of details that were captured and the noise, after post-processing in Lightroom, is really reasonnable considering the lack of light around. So, keep in mind that I'm taking the worst conditions possible for this shot.

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg


    The second pic was taken in broad daylight, with the lumia 930, still in DNG format but this time with W10M. Post-processed with Lightroom. Conditions were close to ideal in terms of lighting. If you zoom in, you'll see how terrible the picture actually looks. It's super grainy, details and colours are washed out and I already decreased the amount of digital noise... the original pic was simply terrible to look at.

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg


    On the one hand, a pic taken in the worst condition possible with a surprisingly good output and on the other hand, a pic taken in broad daylight, same phone, dng format, but different OS and a disgusting output. I didn't even show you the pic taken in low light with W10M...

    To be fair, here's a pic taken in broad daylight with the lumia 930, WP8.1, DNG format, post processed in lightroom. Zoom in it and compare it to the one taken with W10M. According to you, is the quality the same?

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg
    These pictures have huge differences. ISO, time exposure, focus, etc. It's not about easy or difficult shot. To make a fair comparison we need at least same subjetc, but not only that, same moment too. Even more: we need a lot pictures to choose the best of each app or system.

    But we can make some superficial comparison with a lot of pictures, but now with only few ones.

    Anyway, I agree with you, W10M picture looks better, but I think this is not a fair comparison. I have a lot of crisp and beautiful shots that are made on W8.1. I think that your picture on W8.1 was a taken wrong, only that.

    I'm 100% sure. There's absolutely no difference between Camera App and Lumia Camera (the last one, the one that bring ones a even more bad post process), the SO just doesn't matter at all.
    10-25-2015 01:48 PM
  11. Torontonian22's Avatar
    These pictures have huge differences. ISO, time exposure, focus, etc. It's not about easy or difficult shot. To make a fair comparison we need at least same subjetc, but not only that, same moment too. Even more: we need a lot pictures to choose the best of each app or system.

    But we can make some superficial comparison with a lot of pictures, but now with only few ones.

    Anyway, I agree with you, W10M picture looks better, but I think this is not a fair comparison. I have a lot of crisp and beautiful shots that are made on W8.1. I think that your picture on W8.1 was a taken wrong, only that.

    I'm 100% sure. There's absolutely no difference between Camera App and Lumia Camera (the last one, the one that bring ones a even more bad post process), the SO just doesn't matter at all.
    I don't think you actually understood. Pictures on W10M look terrible, not the other way around. The pics taken with 8.1 are the ones that look better, with more details and less noise.

    Here are the complete EXIF of the two daylight shots:

    Shot taken with 8.1:
    Camera: Lumia 930
    Lens: 4.5mm, f/2.4
    Exposure: Auto exposure - 1/1500 sec
    ISO: 64
    File: DNG
    Time: 1:49PM

    Shot taken with W10M:
    Camera: Lumia 930
    Lens: 4.5mm, f/2.4
    Exposure: Auto exposure - 1/2300 sec
    ISO: 64
    File: DNG
    Time: 12:33PM

    As you can see, except for the exposure, the differences between the 2 shots are very minor. As an FYI, aperture does have an impact on the shot but the 930 has a constant aperture lens. However, with such a high exposure on the 2, the difference on the output is negligeable. Even the time of the shot is almost the same and out of of the optimal range (blue hour).

    Even with almost identical settings, the difference between W10M and 8.1 is huge.

    But I do agree, having more pics would help to have a more scientific comparison.
    Last edited by Torontonian22; 10-26-2015 at 08:27 AM.
    10-26-2015 08:16 AM
  12. antiochian2010's Avatar
    I gave up.

    Latest build turned my skies white even when there was no glare or haze; video would not work at any setting and rich capture is busted.

    I am leaving WP10 on my L635, but I reverted my 930 back to 8.1 (and all camera functions and image quality are back 100%). Won't upgrade until I am sure they have updated image drivers for the 930; I depend heavily on that little camera.
    10-28-2015 03:40 PM
  13. Mark Seychell's Avatar
    Won't upgrade until I am sure they have updated image drivers for the 930; I depend heavily on that little camera.
    Same here, it's all that is holding me from upgrading my 930 to W10 as my daily driver
    10-29-2015 04:14 AM
  14. Mark Enderby's Avatar
    Just upgraded to latest build and noticed the Camera app isn't working properly. Only saving jpegs at around 500k despite being set to save jpg and dng. Camera 360 is saving at around 4M so it's definitely the app but I guess firmware could be an issue as well.

    Cheers

    Mark
    11-05-2015 04:33 AM
  15. Roland Stoll's Avatar
    Just upgraded to latest build and noticed the Camera app isn't working properly. Only saving jpegs at around 500k despite being set to save jpg and dng. Camera 360 is saving at around 4M so it's definitely the app but I guess firmware could be an issue as well.
    yes, (Microsoft) camera app seems to be broken - pics are taken in 1440x1080... :O
    use the Lumia Camera Beta, which takes pics up to 4992 x 3744...

    on the other hand:
    - with Lumia Camera Beta I can't shoot videos, get an error... this works with MS camera app...
    - with MS camera app link to photo app is broken... not in Lumia Camera Beta...

    currently using both apps... quite a mess... hope to be fixed soon...
    11-05-2015 05:53 AM
  16. Dusan Randj's Avatar
    Although I use 735, I've also noticed drop of quality in W10m preview.
    Colours are duller, Camera app forces the use of higher ISO and so on, photos are usually washed out and with too much gama increased.
    I really hope that we need proper firmware update with W10 update that will fix that preview issues, but if it stays this way...not sure if I'llstick to it.
    11-05-2015 06:14 AM
  17. SaulSantos's Avatar
    I updated my Lumia 930 to the latest Windows 10 Insider version, and the picture quality is horrible - the whole system works pretty well (way better than I was expecting it to), but this is making me go back to 8.1 for now. Do you guys know of any fixes for this?
    11-05-2015 09:52 AM
  18. Mark Enderby's Avatar
    The App update that came in last night has fixed the DNG problem ... now getting both images at correct sizes:-)

    Mark
    11-06-2015 03:13 AM
  19. Roland Stoll's Avatar
    yes, (Microsoft) camera app seems to be broken - pics are taken in 1440x1080... :O
    use the Lumia Camera Beta, which takes pics up to 4992 x 3744...

    on the other hand:
    - with Lumia Camera Beta I can't shoot videos, get an error... this works with MS camera app...
    - with MS camera app link to photo app is broken... not in Lumia Camera Beta...

    currently using both apps... quite a mess... hope to be fixed soon...
    todays camera update added slomo for some devices (930 works - YEAH!) and fixed most of the issues above!
    - pics resolution up to 4992 x 3744 fixed
    - link to photo (top left corner) works, but only in video mode
    11-06-2015 03:18 AM
  20. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I gave up.

    Latest build turned my skies white even when there was no glare or haze; video would not work at any setting and rich capture is busted.

    I am leaving WP10 on my L635, but I reverted my 930 back to 8.1 (and all camera functions and image quality are back 100%). Won't upgrade until I am sure they have updated image drivers for the 930; I depend heavily on that little camera.
    Same here, I think this is the new Microsoft approach, since every other smartphone do that. They have EV0 on 0.3 or 0.7 to compensate. iPhone do this since always and that's why people that understand nothing about photography think some shots on iPhones are better.

    It's not a worry, since we have EV available to manually fix this new concept.
    11-09-2015 05:17 AM
  21. Mark Seychell's Avatar
    But is it possible to shoot high-res (16MP or 19MP) in JPG or is it just DNG?

    I heard that now there is only the option to shoot in JPG (5MP) + DNG (16/19MP). Is the option to shoot in JPG (5MP) and JPG (16/19MP) really gone?
    11-09-2015 05:17 AM
  22. Hutzi's Avatar
    Hey guys,
    Somehow I have to disagree with the general consensus that WM10 (Build:10581) produces worse images than WP8.1. I snap pictures with the Lumia camera (I have it set as standard) and usually try to stay on ISO 64. Resolution wise I set it to 5MP JPG + 16MP DNG. The pics below are all oversampled versions. Yeah, I guess see for yourself, in my opinion the 10 quality resembles the quality on 8.1. Obviously I know you can not call this a comparison just because the 8.1 half is missing but in my memory the quality is pretty much the same.

    Cheers

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    Note: Even though these pictures are lower resolution, OneDrive still does need some time to resharpen the images (even on a 50k connection)
    11-09-2015 08:30 AM
  23. Mark Seychell's Avatar
    I understand Lumia Camera takes comparable pictures. The problem is actually the Windows Camera app itself, and there must be something missing in the processing of this software.

    Unfortunately, it seems not everyone's phone, mine included, ports over Lumia Camera during the upgrade process, and no version of Lumia Camera or Lumia Camera Beta is available for download from the store.
    11-10-2015 02:38 AM
  24. greedo_greedy's Avatar
    The answer to this is pretty simple. The OS we're installing into our phones is the vanilla version of Windows 10 Mobile. Meaning it does not include the special firmware/algorithms that take advantage of the specific hardware.

    Remember back in the days of 8.1? We would get a Lumia Cyan then a Lumia Denim update?

    This is why it is going to take longer to get OTA for these phones because I believe MS will make sure these firmware will be included OTA.
    11-10-2015 03:08 AM
  25. Hutzi's Avatar
    These are EXACTLY the same pictures taken with both apps on the 930.

    Lumia Camera:
    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    Microsoft Camera:
    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    On the final quality (Lumia Camera WM10 vs 8.1) I can not say anything yet. I'm undecided. I do however tend to agree with you on the app side of things. I still don't really think that the change of OS can have an impact on image quality. The drivers are the same. The software (Lumia Camera) is the same.

    I have HOWEVER found out two things:
    1. The file sizes are slightly smaller on the Microsoft camera. 1.9MB vs 1.7MB (Again: these are oversampled versions)
    2. In the photos app on phone (WM10) one can pinch to zoom further into the picture on the Microsoft camera

    The fact that one can zoom in further WHILE the actual file size is smaller makes it obvious to me that the products of the Microsoft camera WILL be inferior. If this makes a HUGE difference in daily usage let's say when using a Lumia 640 I would seriously doubt. In my opinion you wouldn't even notice it. On something like a Lumia 930/950 I think you WOULD notice it (If you would really look for it).

    In conclusion: There is a SLIGHT decrease in quality if you compare the two apps. BUT this is also pre-release software. There will definitely be future updates to the software but WHY didn't they just rebrand Lumia Camera? Instead they created a new application which, by my assumptions, is slightly inferior.
    11-10-2015 05:04 AM
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