Since so many people have been having trouble with Verizon reps, I made a thread on reddit.

[stephen_az]

A VZW employee posted this interesting comment, which I paste here without annotating:

Do you really want to know why we don't know anything about the Windows phones? Be warned, this will not be a popular opinion. I work in a corporate store. None of us even bother to talk about or learn about the windows phones and we actively steer customers away from them and toward Android and iOS.

I'd say a good 90% of the customers who walk in the door for a smartphone are after specifically Android or specifically iOS. These two operating systems are very well-known, easy to demo, and have a metric ton of apps that everyone who gets a smartphone wants. In addition, they have equivalent software that does what Windows touts, which is essentially Office (and a few extras). SkyDrive? Google Drive. Outlook? Any mail app on the planet. Exchange Server? iPhones have always had it. There is no major distinguishing factor on the Windows OS that sets it as a leg up on iOS or Android that isn't really easy to work around when on the two big OSs. (And seriously, no one buys a Windows phone to hook up to their Xbox.)

So what about that other 10%? Well, the majority of them really don't care--they just want a smartphone. Maybe, maybe 1% of customers at most is after a Windows phone. So, right out the gate, you're talking about a tiny fraction of walk-ins for whom it is valuable to get product knowledge on Windows, and of that 1%, the vast majority already know everything they want to know about Windows and just want to buy it.

So in the case of the Icon, I am not remotely surprised that people at your store didn't realize it launched. Product launches are only one of the many announcements we are bombarded with internally, and there's a river of "important news" filling our inbox constantly. Every single department and every single level of upper management sends us email marked "Important", and Windows phone news is at the top of the list of "things to delete immediately because no one cares". When a new Windows phone comes in, the phones get stacked at the back of the shelf with the Blackberries, the accessories get hung on the pegs in the bottom corner of the inventory room, the floor demo doesn't get set up for a week, and no one realizes it launched because we get about thirty emails a day from corporate about all kinds of crap we never read.

So, now let's talk about what's BAD about windows.

Lack of Apps. When I have two different platforms that each have over a million apps, why on earth would I get a customer into a phone that might have a few of the common apps that all their friends will have?

Bugs. Bugs bugs bugs. When you have to apologize to a customer that your contacts won't open and spontaneously crash the phone every time you try it, and whoops, you have to factory reset, and yes, it will take a good thirty minutes to completely reset, unless the reset gets stuck (which it does half the time, and you can't tell whether it's stuck or just taking forever), in which case whoops, now your otherwise-working phone has to have a CLNR replacement shipped to you and you're without a phone for a few days...it gets old fast.
Bluetooth craps out a lot, a lot of sync services don't work half the time, and God forbid someone accidentally put today's date as their birthdate and there is NO WORKAROUND for your one-day-old customer other than making a Windows account yourself, "acquiring" them as a child, changing their birthdate, then releasing them from child status. (And by the way, OP, I know that you're aware of the bugs, too.)

So what does all this mean? Returns. What you DO NOT want as a sales rep is to have a customer walk back in and return a phone, it hits reps hard. (That's the financial side, but from a personal side, customers returning phones are unhappy, and we want happy, satisfied customers.) When Windows launched and the sales reps began selling them, they came back in droves because the customers found the lack of apps appalling and found all kinds of weird quirky bugs that we couldn't explain or fix. We are expected to have answers, and "I have no idea why that phone is doing that, it makes no sense" is not an answer we can give. Managers were extending M2 exchanges and waiving restock fees to keep people from dropping lines, and even months later were allowing manager-discretion M2 upgrades because customers were unhappy and we didn't have answers for the Windows quirks and issues.

So why don't we know anything about the Icon? We don't sell it. Yes, we have it, but we don't sell it. We sell phones people want, phones we know, phones we can demo, and phones we can fix if problems crop up.

Oh, your iPhone is off and won't turn on, won't respond to charge? It's easy to fix! Your phone is just frozen, hold these two buttons and your phone is working and you're happy. Oh, your Windows phone is doing some random-*** thing I've never heard of but doesn't surprise me even slightly? Well, let's master reset it I guess, do you have an errand you can run for half an hour...? Oops, your phone is stuck in reset mode and won't boot, here's an old Blackberry you can use for two days with no contacts while we send you a replacement.

It ultimately comes down to this: you want a Windows phone? It's on you. I'll do my best to talk you out of it. We are not responsible for propping up flagging Windows product line sales and we want to make our customers happy. That means selling them popular, reliable, mature phones that we can be confident in. The fact that you, a Windows fan, are not happy that I'm spurning windows makes no difference to my customer, who is happy that I'm recommending a solid, reliable Droid or iPhone that they will love for two years.

This topic pisses me off, so I'm posting anonymously. This is a peek behind the mask (because I'm usually a really nice guy and my customers love me). I care too much about making my customers happy to get them into a wildcard phone that they might be okay with but will probably be dissatisfied with. I will not stand behind Windows and I don't care to learn more about their products. Period.

...and if anyone thinks that post was from an actual VZW rep, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. It leads to the same place you will find the reddit person with a direct line to Nokia confirming the 822 was not getting Lumia Black. Why do people take this stuff so seriously? BTW, while I have had no reason to ask about the new phone, both the VZW company stores in Scottsdale and Tempe were well educated on the 822, 8X, and 928 and did not try to direct people to other devices.

 

[IdemanEric]

...and if anyone thinks that post was from an actual VZW rep, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. It leads to the same place you will find the reddit person with a direct line to Nokia confirming the 822 was not getting Lumia Black. Why do people take this stuff so seriously? BTW, while I have had no reason to ask about the new phone, both the VZW company stores in Scottsdale and Tempe were well educated on the 822, 8X, and 928 and did not try to direct people to other devices.

I don't know either way. However... The guy is selling a PHONE, not a nuclear device. It's not that complicated to know them all, present them ALL in an intelligent manner, make your little commission and do it while not sounding like a moron. I'm also pretty sure the clientele is not all that difficult. The moral of the story seems to be... YOU SELL CELL PHONES! At least do THAT right, and give me a break with your long response (which FYI, I only read part of).

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[falconrap]

...and if anyone thinks that post was from an actual VZW rep, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. It leads to the same place you will find the reddit person with a direct line to Nokia confirming the 822 was not getting Lumia Black. Why do people take this stuff so seriously? BTW, while I have had no reason to ask about the new phone, both the VZW company stores in Scottsdale and Tempe were well educated on the 822, 8X, and 928 and did not try to direct people to other devices.

I would say that there are people who have run into sales folks like that. The corporate store I went into in Tampa, which I've talked about before, had reps representing the WP's quite well. I think this type of person tends to show up more in the "Authorized Resellers". Even when I went into this same store for my Pre+, the sales guy didn't fuss with me at all. Just rang me up and set the phone up for my use. I avoid the non-corporate stores like a plague, so, fortunately, I haven't had to deal with one of these types.

 

[Honestabebread]

I'm pretty sure that guy is a VZW employee because he knows about M2 upgrades, CLNR exchanges and all that stuff. The only weird bit is about the return rate, which hasn't affected commission checks since early 2012.

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[bertongbadtrip]

The only weird bit is about the return rate, which hasn't affected commission checks since early 2012.

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I think he's talking about chargebacks.

I can agree with everyone else though - salespeople need to know their products. Reps in my store have so much hatred for WP it's like MSFT killed someone in their family. I have reps that would immediately push people away who are asking for a WP. People need to understand that VZW has NOTHING to do with their reps not wanting to learn about WP. They don't incentivize selling on OS over the other or learning about every OS in the store. If you feel strongly about the rep you just talked to not knowing their stuff and trying to push you towards something else, ask for the district manager's contact info. Let the DM know that the rep didn't offer you a personalized solution and you didn't get the standard of customer service that a company like Verizon should be offering. That'll be the fastest and the best way to start a culture change. Some store managers might do something, but sometimes store managers would just protect their reps.

This will be a very unpopular opinion here... but if you guys would actually go into a corporate store and buy your phones there, then the retail side of things will start showing higher purchases for WP. Instead of buying your phone online or somewhere else, if you want VZW reps to see that there is a demand for Windows Phones, buy your phone in the store. The less people walking in and asking for it, the more they'll think it's an unpopular product, the less they'll want to learn about it.

 

[pci2k]

Instead of buying your phone online or somewhere else, if you want VZW reps to see that there is a demand for Windows Phones, buy your phone in the store. The less people walking in and asking for it, the more they'll think it's an unpopular product, the less they'll want to learn about it.

Sorry bertongbadtrip, I don't plan on buying my phone from Verizon unless they have a better offering than the Microsoft Store has, and offer better customer service than they do. I know that will happen when hell freezes over.

The Microsoft Store is offering me a free charging plate or charging stand, $100 insurance for 2 years, replacement for damage up to 2x over 2 years at $49 each, and I get a NEW replacement at that, and not a crappy refurb like you guys offer!!!! Verizon can't offer me any of that, so why would I go to them? Verizon also discouraged me from buying off-contract for them. They told me to go a 3rd party like the Microsoft Store!!!

 

[Citizen X]

Bugs. Bugs bugs bugs. When you have to apologize to a customer that your contacts won't open and spontaneously crash the phone every time you try it, and whoops, you have to factory reset, and yes, it will take a good thirty minutes to completely reset, unless the reset gets stuck (which it does half the time, and you can't tell whether it's stuck or just taking forever), in which case whoops, now your otherwise-working phone has to have a CLNR replacement shipped to you and you're without a phone for a few days...it gets old fast.
Bluetooth craps out a lot, a lot of sync services don't work half the time, and God forbid someone accidentally put today's date as their birthdate and there is NO WORKAROUND for your one-day-old customer other than making a Windows account yourself, "acquiring" them as a child, changing their birthdate, then releasing them from child status. (And by the way, OP, I know that you're aware of the bugs, too.)

So what does all this mean? Returns. What you DO NOT want as a sales rep is to have a customer walk back in and return a phone, it hits reps hard. (That's the financial side, but from a personal side, customers returning phones are unhappy, and we want happy, satisfied customers.) When Windows launched and the sales reps began selling them, they came back in droves because the customers found the lack of apps appalling and found all kinds of weird quirky bugs that we couldn't explain or fix. We are expected to have answers, and "I have no idea why that phone is doing that, it makes no sense" is not an answer we can give. Managers were extending M2 exchanges and waiving restock fees to keep people from dropping lines, and even months later were allowing manager-discretion M2 upgrades because customers were unhappy and we didn't have answers for the Windows quirks and issues.

This was one of the best pieces of creative writing I've seen in quite some time. I've had two Windows Phones, the Lumia 900 and the Lumia 1520. The two issues I had with the Lumia 900 were the purple tint issue (that was fixed with a firmware update) and after about a year my phone irreparably locked up. I took my Lumia 900 in and they handed me a pristine refurb phone. That thing has been solid except a flaky micro USB port. And based on reports on the internet microUSB ports seem prone to failing after a couple of years of heavy use. That isn't unique to Windows Phone. I have to be a bit careful about plugging in the phone to charge but other than that the phone is pristine and runs like the day I got it.

Now on to iphones. My girlfriend went through 3 iphone 5s before she found one that would work on her home network. I know this because when the overpriced piece of crap has a problem I am the one that gets called. The "geniuses" at the Apple store are worthless. I had to take her to the Apple store and return the device twice. The @$$holes at the Apple store said, hey the phone works at our store so your home network must be the issue. I'm serious. I literally spent hours at my girlfriend's house changing security protocols on multiple wifi routers before finally diagnosing the iphone 5 had a fatal flaw of not working with multiple routers when WPA2 AES security is activated. Of course the "genius" at the Apple store just had to turn the phone on and jump onto their open network at the store to diagnose that the phone was fine! He didn't check any of the security settings. While we were at the store during this epic 3 HOUR waste of time another person came in complaining of the same problem. That person just accepted that her wifi wouldn't work on a lot of networks and left the store. My girlfriend eventually returned the phone but she eventual went back months later and tried again. Her final iphone 5 finally did work on all wifi networks encounterd... until months later when she upgraded to iOS7! Bam! Wifi didn't work again. I got a panicked phone call and had to head over to her house for hours of customer support. I have never owned an iphone and I had to sit on the internet and figure out how to roll back the OS update. Luckily I found some bootleg stuff on the internet that helped me accomplish this task. I told my girlfriend no more OS updates. A few months after than one of her relatives came over for a visit and their iphone couldn't get wifi either.

The isheep keep buying broken iphones and accepting the status quo. I don't think that says anything about Windows Phone hardware.

 

[jlzimmerman]

"It ultimately comes down to this: you want a Windows phone? It's on you. I'll do my best to talk you out of it. We are not responsible for propping up flagging Windows product line sales and we want to make our customers happy. That means selling them popular, reliable, mature phones that we can be confident in. The fact that you, a Windows fan, are not happy that I'm spurning windows makes no difference to my customer, who is happy that I'm recommending a solid, reliable Droid or iPhone that they will love for two years.

This topic pisses me off, so I'm posting anonymously. This is a peek behind the mask (because I'm usually a really nice guy and my customers love me). I care too much about making my customers happy to get them into a wildcard phone that they might be okay with but will probably be dissatisfied with. I will not stand behind Windows and I don't care to learn more about their products. Period."

This sums up so much regarding WP growth in the US. This coupled with ingrained loyalty that Apple and Android have built over the past few years, and you know why it's hard to get past 3%.

This article is infuriating to WP users, embarrassing to Nokia/MS, and pathetic on Verizon.

 

[VirtualDanMan]

I have At&t, just thought I'd chime in.

I don't mean to offend anyone so please don't take offense to anything that I say.

I have At&t like I said, I love their customer service. Whenever I have a bad phone, even after warranty, I can still get a replacement. For example, in the last 4 weeks, I've had 6 Lumia 1020's. I say what's wrong, they say okay, and ship me a new one. However, their service is only decent. Data wise, yes, I get good signal, but voice call wise, it's a struggle. Verizon people never have this problem! I'm currently on my family plan with At&t and have been thinking about getting Verizon. Anyone have any thoughts? Should I stay with the cheaper yet better customer service At&t or should I go with the most expensive, better signal, but poor customer service Verizon? Just a side note to the thread. I do love the Lumia Icon and would take that over my 1020 any day of the week btw.

I've been with VZW for over 10 years. I've hardly had to call their customer support as the devices just work, but the handful of times I did - they were great. They are a bit more expensive than the others but worth it. (IMHO)

 

[savagelizards]

If, for example, MS offered even a $20 commission to carrier employees for each WP sale, and guaranteed that they would pay for any returns, this would insulate the carrier and its employees from the risk of returns and motivate them greatly to sell more WPs.

This is my thought exactly. You can't blame he rep for choosing the best way to go about his job, simply because it doesn't reflect well on your favorite products.

The poster was being very honest about his position. Verizon itself doesn't care about which platform wins. If they did they would only want/need two choices to play off each other to get their best deals. Both iOS and android work well enough, and all Verizon is concerned with is that customer devices don't reduce the performance of their market-leading network, since that's what they are selling. Quite frankly, Microsoft is lucky that they are still in the conversation, and that is probably why we Verizon customers see so few Windows devices in the first place.

The question Microsoft has to answer is "how can we motivate reps to suggest windows phones?" We can argue the merits of the reps feelings about WP, and some of his feelings may have been resolved by more recent products/OS updates (or will be addressed by WP 8.1), but they are still valid. Sales reps always default to selling what they believe in, so if the rep believes in the iPhone 5S than that's what his customers will buy. If Microsoft provides a spiff to reps for moving their phone, that can "reboot" the reps value proposition and offset any perceived risk of a return. At that point, the conversation becomes more about what's "new," which is where the Icon has the edge for the next month.

The truth at the moment is that you have to really want WP to buy one, and I tell you this as a serial android user who decided to switch to WP when my contract expired last fall. My reason? I wanted to get away from Google, who uses my every interaction with my phone to increase the value they can charge advertisers for info about me.

Why am I still using my laggy Razr Maxx? Because WP lacked competitive hardware. At this point I have made up my mind to purchase an Icon tomorrow, and that is not without reservations. Maybe after 8.1 things might be different, but I feel like I am making the move despite having to make compromises. No one buying a flagship should ever feel like they are not getting the best.

One last thing. I have a Microsoft store at home, but I am on vacation and I drove from Clearwater to Orlando to go to a Microsoft store just to hold an Icon in my hands. They didn't have one either, and had to research it to tell me the basics I already knew. They were very nice, and definitely convinced me to buy direct from Microsoft instead of from Verizon, but everything they knew about phones seems to be geared to ATT customers.

I really hope they will be able to activate my phone tomorrow on my corporate account at the contract price with no problems.

 

[KevinRahimi]

Did you go to the Millenia mall store? I plan to be there in the AM to pick one up. Did they let on if there has been a lot of demand for the phone?

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[reidbp]

Maybe after 8.1 things might be different, but I feel like I am making the move despite having to make compromises. No one buying a flagship should ever feel like they are not getting the best.

Damn... this summed up my feeling today after demoing it and left without a pre-order. Hope it works out well for you. It's absolutely true.

 

[Honestabebread]

I think he's talking about chargebacks.

Charge backs are only on new lines though.


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[Kevin Rush]

I visited the Minneapolis Minnesota USA downtown Skyway Verizon store today and they have Motorola phones on the display with the "Microsoft Windows" sign and the Windows Phones are on the display signed "Google" along with other google phones. I asked to see the Icon and at first the Sales Rep just said they would be out for sale tomorrow. When asked if they had a display one I could look at, he went behind the sales desk and said they had a nonfunctional display. He pulled out an empty shell version of the phone from behind the desk. The mock phone had a fake screen. The Rep was friendly and helpful and didn't say anything negative. He commented that it's a great looking phone. I'm hoping the real phone doesn't look so plastic, cheap, and has some a substantial feel too it. The mock phone didn't weigh hardly anything. I'll go back tomorrow.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

I love how (mostly current or former employees) can brush off not knowing a single thing about a product you sell. I'm sorry, for I second I expected you to know how to do your job. Was that really too much to expect?

 

[irvin792]

These replies from these reps really underscore a huge laziness and ignorance problem in the staff of these stores. Pretty sad.

 

[Ashe Too]

I went to a Verizon store in Charlotte at ParkTowne Village (across from Park Road Shopping Center), and they had a dummy phone, and that was it. The sales rep didn't know about the phone when I asked about the "Nokia Icon," and I had to say "Nokia Lumia Icon" before she even remembered it. They had not set up a demo phone for the sales floor and she wanted me to demo the Lumia 928 because "it's basically the same." It's funny because the countless articles I've read about this device have all talked about how Verizon spec'd this phone from Nokia; ow Microsoft, Verizon and Nokia wanted a flagship WP8 phone for the Verizon network; how important this phone is to Verizon, Microsoft and Nokia .... and this is the way it's handled at street level by the personnel who interact with the individuals who have money to spend known as "customers" ??? Maybe it's not as much of a priority as the corporate PR departments are making it out to be to the media. Either than or Verizon management is great at building a network but they suck at customer service. Nah, that couldn't be it.

 

[k0de]

I went to a Verizon store in Charlotte at ParkTowne Village (across from Park Road Shopping Center), and they had a dummy phone, and that was it. The sales rep didn't know about the phone when I asked about the "Nokia Icon," and I had to say "Nokia Lumia Icon" before she even remembered it. They had not set up a demo phone for the sales floor and she wanted me to demo the Lumia 928 because "it's basically the same." It's funny because the countless articles I've read about this device have all talked about how Verizon spec'd this phone from Nokia; ow Microsoft, Verizon and Nokia wanted a flagship WP8 phone for the Verizon network; how important this phone is to Verizon, Microsoft and Nokia .... and this is the way it's handled at street level by the personnel who interact with the individuals who have money to spend known as "customers" ??? Maybe it's not as much of a priority as the corporate PR departments are making it out to be to the media. Either than or Verizon management is great at building a network but they suck at customer service. Nah, that couldn't be it.

From the report on this thread and other threads. I am convinced there is no doubt on my mind that WP is up against organized crime.

Just wondering how MSFT will contest that?