08-09-2014 09:13 AM
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  1. savagelizards's Avatar
    Microsoft has had ample time to get this ship running right by now. I'm not sure what the holdup is, but as it sits, it doesn't work well enough for me. Maybe after 8.1, probably not. Maybe more around 9.0 or 10.0 it will ready for me to try again. We will see....
    Sure hope 8.1 is the cure for everything, but to do so it needs to do more than close all the holes.

    WP also needs to make a leap forward, somewhere, to put it out in front of the other OSes, while integrating all the catch up features. Otherwise they are just a redundant OS. Microsoft is more than capable of accomplishing this. But they can't wait forever or they will lose what little they ground they have established and will be relegated to being just another android developer, which they are pretty good at.
    03-12-2014 11:57 AM
  2. jleebiker's Avatar
    You see, this is an issue I have. Maybe Windows Mobile wasn't the best, or they couldn't explain it well enough, but when they moved away from WM for WP that does not mean they get to behave like this is the first product they ever designed.

    The first WP version was WP 7, so Microsoft clearly acknowledged that WP was the newest version of their OS, rebranded and with new code, but not a 1.0 product by any means.

    By the time that they designed WP 7, they should have taken all that user experience with prior versions of their OS and parlayed it into an absolutely great mobile OS, especially since they also had access to the OS of two major competitors in iOS and Android that were already in the marketplace. They didn't have to think all of this up, they could simply go into a store and buy competing products to see what features they should include. Where they should have had the edge was in knowing form their WM experience how to do a feature better than iOS or Android.

    So I refuse to accept that they are the new kids on the block and just coming up to speed. What it comes down to is that they just didn't put in the effort that they should have. They should raise their standards, not ask me to lower mine.

    I use lots of Microsoft products, and Microsoft sells a lot of gear and services because friends and relatives of mine see me doing things their Apple devices don't do. If I am excited about all my WP does that I couldn't do before, they could pick up a lot of WP converts.

    But when my wife saw me getting frustrated this morning and asked me if I wanted to use her phone instead I realized just how different my experience is than with my Surface Pro. If someone like me is getting frustrated, it's no wonder why Verizon and ATT reps don't want to sell WP to customers.
    Been reading all your posts and I think you hit the nail on the head. I'll throw this out there too. All the issues between WM and WP are assuming that internally MS was united. What if they weren't? What if there was more that happened or was going on inside MS than we are privy to? There might have been political battles. There might have been ideological battles. I don't think we'll ever know. What happened in the past is the past, will it influence the future, sure. Is WP going in the right direction? I think it depends on who you ask. It will be interesting to see how the 8.1 update is implemented in the wild. I have some basic needs that still aren't being met as far as notifications. If those features aren't there in 8.1, then I will be leaving for an OS that can meet my needs, but that's just me.
    03-12-2014 11:58 AM
  3. DaT Franchise's Avatar
    The Op is right, why is there such a huge gap in basic core os function and features? Its not hardware as the icon and 1520 run the same CPU and gpu as the top android phones. I'm not talking about apps but the os itself.
    savagelizards, Nibs and A895 like this.
    03-12-2014 11:58 AM
  4. Tom Gjonaj's Avatar
    my first windows phone device was the lumia icon and I can defintely feel the emptiness now from when I had an android. I like to play mobile games and many of them are not in the windows store and new releases wont see windows phone for much long after if ever. The OS is awesome but the games and apps are behind. Im going to try and stick with the lumia but the new galaxy s5 is begging for me to buy it, better snapdragon 801, better support, better games and apps. Come on windows I want me to want you!
    savagelizards likes this.
    03-12-2014 12:04 PM
  5. jscott1026's Avatar
    Hmmm As a rather new convert to WP I am surprised about this thread. I did a lot and I mean a lot of research before I made the leap. In the past 5 years I have jumped from Blackberry, to Android to ios and back to Android with my Galaxy Note 2, so I can say I have been around. With every switch I found something I thought was missing or could be fixed, that being said when I look back and I take into account what most of us truly use our phones for which is Browsing Web, taking photos, videos and sharing our lives via social networks or playing games then then I can honestly say there isn't a life changing difference between all of them. Some may perform better than others but who are we kidding it isn't earth shattering different. I do think that WP is growing at a larger rate then ios and android in there current state since they are at a level right now that is high. The app count is increasing and most of my apps I use are on WP and work great. Would I love some Google apps like a real Youtube app and such,YEAH but hey YoutubeHD works great. The long and the short of it is that I would tell you to do your research and like I would hope most of us on here did before taking a leap and winging it so to speak. Now the ICON is a powerful phone though and easily runs as fluid as my Note or 4s did or even my wifes 5s. I so far cant complain. Plus issues and complaints are why GOD created UPDATES for. Someone has to get paid to do Fixes.
    jlzimmerman and BobLobIaw like this.
    03-12-2014 12:12 PM
  6. radmanvr's Avatar
    Come on windows I want me to want you!
    Sounds like something my wife saves " I want you to want to take out the trash" "I want you to want to cuddle"

    As far as WP being limited I agree it is limited but I don't have a problem with that. I do not game on my phone or a heavy social network person. I am actually more of a productive enterprise level phone user so I got that going for me which is nice.
    BobLobIaw, Pieter Wolff and hs k like this.
    03-12-2014 12:12 PM
  7. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    Why can't I create a PowerPoint in the Office App?
    I'll never ever understand why someone would want to create a PowerPoint on a PHONE.
    03-12-2014 12:37 PM
  8. Joel S79's Avatar
    WP8 is older than iOS7.
    This is a silly comparison. iOS is older than Windows Phone, and Windows Phone 8 switched to using the NT kernel (Windows Phone 7 used a modified version of the CE kernel), which is a rather substantial change. It's fair to say Windows Phone 8 is a completely new OS in it's own right. In hindsight, MS should've used the NT kernel from the get go, but it was likely easier to get Windows Phone to market using the CE kernel first while developing the NT version behind the scenes.

    I am about sick of people talking about MS being in the mobile business for years from both sides. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Windows Phone 8 is substantially different from the old Windows Mobile days, and there's basically nothing carried over from those OSes, not to mention the vast differences in technology and expectations from the market.

    Anyway, NT is a very powerful Kernel, just ask the billions of people who rely on the various PCs and servers that run on it, and it does give Windows Phone 8 an advantage over their iOS and Android counterparts. It says a lot that the core OS experience is incredibly consistent across the various platforms. It's missing features, sure, but the biggies are being addressed in 8.1 (like HTML 5 support, and more than 6 tabs), and the future looks pretty good for the maturation of the platform.

    Oh, and to the OP, as many have said, your proximity sensor is acting up. Try restarting the phone first.
    03-12-2014 12:44 PM
  9. Joel S79's Avatar
    You see, this is an issue I have. Maybe Windows Mobile wasn't the best, or they couldn't explain it well enough, but when they moved away from WM for WP that does not mean they get to behave like this is the first product they ever designed.

    The first WP version was WP 7, so Microsoft clearly acknowledged that WP was the newest version of their OS, rebranded and with new code, but not a 1.0 product by any means.

    By the time that they designed WP 7, they should have taken all that user experience with prior versions of their OS and parlayed it into an absolutely great mobile OS, especially since they also had access to the OS of two major competitors in iOS and Android that were already in the marketplace. They didn't have to think all of this up, they could simply go into a store and buy competing products to see what features they should include. Where they should have had the edge was in knowing form their WM experience how to do a feature better than iOS or Android.
    No, this is incredibly misguided.

    The market changed A LOT from when Windows Mobile was around to when Windows Phone 7 was released. Microsoft's experience in the market literally meant nothing. When WM was popular, most people used their cell phones to talk on and Smart Phone users were mostly business folk who expected their devices to be like PDAs and controlled them with styli or trackballs and keyboards. They used them to communicate and do business type stuff, no play games or browse Facebook. When the iPhone hit, it completely changed the market, and Palm, Blackberry and Microsoft were left scrambling. People didn't want to use Styli, and they didn't care about emailing their coworkers, they wanted to play games, browse the web, mess with apps, and use something with an attractive interface. Palm adapted first with WebOS, but they never got a foothold on the market, and HP mishandled them so badly, they vanished. BB relied on their stranglehold on the business market to stay afloat, and by the time they started adapting, it was too late. MS also scrambled, and was able to deliver Windows Phone 7, which was built on a version of the CE Kernel used in Windows Mobile. Of the three (Palm, BB, MS), they have the best chance of succeeding.

    Windows Phone required a complete rethink of how people use, and interact with their phones. MS basically went back to the drawing board, and you can argue they pushed 7 to market. Windows Phone 8 is significantly different from its predecessors, including Windows Phone 7... about the only thing they share is the similar looking interface. MS's experience in the market prior to WP was useless, they were going after a different target market using different input methods on different hardware. It actually would be to MS's favor for them to completely forget what they did in the past and start with a blank slate (and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they did).

    Microsoft made a ballsy move pushing Windows Phone 7 out and then changing the kernel like they did, but they wanted to get the interface in front of people. It makes sense, push it out and try and steal some mindshare from iOS and Android. They also wanted to get the core functionality working well, which I actually applaud. You can either release a feature packed OS filled with features that mimic their competition but is plagued with performance issues and bugs, or you can release a slimmer OS with a rock solid core to build on. You wouldn't build a house on a shoddy foundation would you?

    Apple did pretty much the exact same thing, don't forget, when iOS was released it was missing core functionality that people using flip phones were accustom to. Apple wanted to get the phone in front of people betting they'd be sucked in to the new interface, and they were right. Time will tell if it works for MS.

    P.S. Android basically did the opposite. They crammed the OS with features and only recently began working to slim it down so it runs well.
    Kage Maru and cckgz4 like this.
    03-12-2014 01:16 PM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    All the issues between WM and WP are assuming that internally MS was united. What if they weren't? What if there was more that happened or was going on inside MS than we are privy to? There might have been political battles. There might have been ideological battles. I don't think we'll ever know.
    Great point. We might think of Microsoft as one big well oiled machine. It's not. My boss is a Microsoft MVP, and he's been to MVP conferences on the Microsoft campus and other places. He recently said that someone told him that if we knew how disjointed Microsoft is, we'd be surprised that they can produce what they already do! I'm guessing that most large companies are like that to a certain extent.

    This graphic is kind of interesting:

    bjymgni.jpg
    03-12-2014 01:18 PM
  11. Joel S79's Avatar
    Great point. We might think of Microsoft as one big well oiled machine. It's not. My boss is a Microsoft MVP, and he's been to MVP conferences on the Microsoft campus and other places. He recently said that someone told him that if we knew how disjointed Microsoft is, we'd be surprised that they can produce what they already do! I'm guessing that most large companies are like that to a certain extent.

    This graphic is kind of interesting:
    Yep. Last year this was made very clear when the One Microsoft plan was announced and it was revealed they're scrapping their old bonus plan (which actually encouraged infighting). It sounds like it's getting better though...
    03-12-2014 01:32 PM
  12. DaT Franchise's Avatar
    Android os has zero features, its the OE like Samsung HTC LG that adds them to the base os. The G2 is packed full of features and is still a monster with no lag or bogging down. I can't stand when people say that all those things bog down a phone and the fact that WP runs smooth on slower chips means the 800 equipped phones should be able to be even faster then android with the same features. But that's not the OP point, his point is things apple and android have offered for years aren't even available or work half assed. Yea WP is relatively new but MS has been coding for how long now??
    Nibs and Jonah Travisano like this.
    03-12-2014 02:38 PM
  13. TrueMetalGeek's Avatar
    I had a Palm Treo 700wx with WM5 and loved it at the time. It was a great phone and I was watching flash on it when iPhone came out and could not. And was the first phone I had which could stream audio to Bluetooth headphones (iPhone could not).
    That was also my first phone with high speed data EVDO.
    Then my wife had the first HTC Touch with WM5.5 and it ran pretty good.
    Then I had an Imagio with WM6 if I remember which was way too much software for the hardware in that thing. It got slow real fast.
    That was the first phone that I loaded other roms into.

    Then WM7 came out as Android was taking off and I grabbed a Thunderbolt. My first 4G phone.
    WM7 was so different and I tried Android.
    I've had the HTC DNA and now a Samsung S4 (it can be pretty buggy) and now that I have a Microsoft Surface RT Tablet and Windows 8.1 on my PC I'm thinking of getting a Windows Phone again.

    I tested the waters by getting my 17 yr old daughter a used Nokia 822 and she loves it. That old thing is snappy. Snappier than Android phones. Even my quad core S4 I think. LOL!
    (Not with equal screen, camera, etc)

    Now that Verizon is going to get the Icon I'm tempted.
    I got a few months left before I can use an upgrade on a line to get it at the discount then transfer to my unlimited line.
    03-12-2014 03:02 PM
  14. TheArcaneFlame's Avatar
    Concerning the screen not turning off during calls: Do you have any sort of case or screen protector on your Icon? It's possible that it could be interfering with the proximity sensor. I don't have any such issues when on phone calls and have never had such issues going all the way back to my HTC Trophy (WP7). So my guess is that either something is causing an issue externally or the phone/sensor might be flaky. For as great as Nokia's are... they're really just another electronic device and do still have issues from time to time.


    I'm going to blatantly give you a hard time about this next point (but it's largely in jest).... It's your description of how you simply cannot wait to finish your conversation before checking notifications when they come in... Really?! I mean... REALLY?! That's pretty rude/inconsiderate of you and I can understand how you disappearing from calls for several seconds might annoy the people who are on the phone attempting to talk with you.... I wouldn't blame Microsoft for them getting annoyed. Maybe just finish talking and then check the notifications.

    Additionally when this happens and you absolutely HAVE to check it, you say you need to scan the tiles trying to figure out what just happened. If it's really so important for you to be able to check this stuff while being on the phone then perhaps you need to reorganize your tiles so that all your accounts or the apps which would have these notifications are in a single area of the screen so you can very easily glance at it to see what's new and then get back to your caller that much faster.

    Again, mostly just giving you a hard time about that in jest. :)
    03-12-2014 03:05 PM
  15. Jazmac's Avatar
    My advice to the OP, "STAY IN YOUR LANE". You have no reason to feel like you are on the outside looking in with probably the best handset ever,. Once you allow folk not on the platform to determine what is best for you, you will forever feel like one missing out. Stay in your lane.
    radmanvr and cckgz4 like this.
    03-12-2014 03:19 PM
  16. nasellok's Avatar
    The Op is right, why is there such a huge gap in basic core os function and features? Its not hardware as the icon and 1520 run the same CPU and gpu as the top android phones. I'm not talking about apps but the os itself.
    Now, WP8.1 isn't out yet, but from what we know about it - it looks like we can probably make an assumption that after 18 months, windows phone 8 hasn't gotten a lot of new features. Nokia has done their best to bring them to WP8, but its not a huge amount. I think what we are looking at with MS's evolution, is that they are adding features in huge chunks. Look at 7->8, and now 8->8.1. If we look at what 8.1 brings, I think we are looking at a monumental upgrade - sort of similar if Android jumped from 2.1 -> 4.0 ish upgrade (2010 - 2013). The biggest difference being that people on the original 8.0 phones, will be able to run 8.1 with no issues, whereas all the Android Phones that were running 2.1-2.2, etc, got screwed, and if you didn't get a new phone, you were forever stuck on an old outdated OS (that is unless you rooted, and installed Roms, which we all know lag the device so bad you could hear it crying from the inside.

    My point of all this - MS, while slow to get on feature parity with other OS's, seems to be doing it right. You will eventually be able to run the same app on your desktop computer that you run on your cell phone - that coupled with the fact that your desktop computer also runs any software you could possibly need (unless its Windows RT, which we all know has its own set of limitations). I do however wish that MS would build some of the great Windows 8.1 features into Windows Phone - particularly running side by side apps, and full file explorer, but im hardly going to consider them deal breakers. Ive been using my Icon since launch day, and Ive never even thought of trying to use mobile powerpoint to create a presentation. Ill use my Computer, cause that's what its for.
    aximtreo likes this.
    03-12-2014 04:20 PM
  17. savagelizards's Avatar
    Come on windows I want me to want you!
    Well Said!
    03-12-2014 05:01 PM
  18. Joel S79's Avatar
    Android os has zero features, its the OE like Samsung HTC LG that adds them to the base os. The G2 is packed full of features and is still a monster with no lag or bogging down. I can't stand when people say that all those things bog down a phone and the fact that WP runs smooth on slower chips means the 800 equipped phones should be able to be even faster then android with the same features. But that's not the OP point, his point is things apple and android have offered for years aren't even available or work half assed. Yea WP is relatively new but MS has been coding for how long now??
    Just... come on. Android does not have "zero features." OEMs add a lot of crap, but most of the core functionality people are used to with Android is Android.

    You may not like it, but it's a fact. The more apps you have running, the slower the device will run. Android is WAY better now as far as performance goes, and some people way overstate the performance hits, but Android OEMs have long relied on top of the line hardware to give users solid performance where Apple and Microsoft aimed to give a consistent experience across the board (this is also why WP8 and iOS were rather minimal when they launched, so they could produce a reliable core first).

    MS coding forever means nothing. Ford has been building cars for over a century, but you wouldn't expect them to release an electric car that's better in every way than the Tesla Model S on their first shot would you? Their initial hybrid cars were a joke, it's only recently that they're respectable.
    radmanvr and MazoMark like this.
    03-12-2014 05:12 PM
  19. savagelizards's Avatar
    Concerning the screen not turning off during calls: Do you have any sort of case or screen protector on your Icon? It's possible that it could be interfering with the proximity sensor.
    I have only an Incipio Feather case and no screen protector (my daughter, who works in Best Buy's mobile department, is appalled), so that's not it. It happened to me again twice today, and I was playing around with it to see if the sensor was working. It seems to, but it is definitely touchy. It may be me moving the phone around against my head too much. I will definitely take it to the Microsoft store to get it checked out. I haven't had any other hardware problems though. The build quality is excellent.

    I'm going to blatantly give you a hard time about this next point (but it's largely in jest).... It's your description of how you simply cannot wait to finish your conversation before checking notifications when they come in... Really?! I mean... REALLY?! That's pretty rude/inconsiderate of you and I can understand how you disappearing from calls for several seconds might annoy the people who are on the phone attempting to talk with you.... I wouldn't blame Microsoft for them getting annoyed. Maybe just finish talking and then check the notifications.
    I appreciate your humor, and I know there's an etiquette point in there as well. The point is that with android, I can just scan the top of the phone and read what the notification is and know if it's important or not, and if (as it often happens) information has arrived that has bearing on my call.

    This phone is chirping and buzzing all the time, and I don't know if it's a weather update, the set of plans that the architect was sending me that might have the answer to the question I am trying to solve with the caller, an appointment reminder or a text telling me not to forget I left my car running in the parking lot. I spend a lot of time going form property to property, so my phone is often my entire office.

    Additionally when this happens and you absolutely HAVE to check it, you say you need to scan the tiles trying to figure out what just happened. If it's really so important for you to be able to check this stuff while being on the phone then perhaps you need to reorganize your tiles so that all your accounts or the apps which would have these notifications are in a single area of the screen so you can very easily glance at it to see what's new and then get back to your caller that much faster.

    Again, mostly just giving you a hard time about that in jest. :)
    I have been working on making my tiles more organized and informative. But I still have to take the time to look and discern what is happening, rather than just know what is happening. Here is a screenshot of my latest configuration (any tips for usability are appreciated):

    my_tiles.png
    03-12-2014 05:40 PM
  20. tgp's Avatar
    I have only an Incipio Feather case and no screen protector (my daughter, who works in Best Buy's mobile department, is appalled), so that's not it. It happened to me again twice today, and I was playing around with it to see if the sensor was working. It seems to, but it is definitely touchy. It may be me moving the phone around against my head too much.
    You're just holding it wrong! ;-) In reality, you may be holding the phone up to your ear in a way that worked with your Android phone, but not the Icon. It could be something more device or manufacturer specific than anything else, and not necessarily a defect.
    03-12-2014 06:30 PM
  21. TrueMetalGeek's Avatar
    If Microsoft could get the Windows 8.1 from the RT into the Windows Phone now that the new phones have 1080 screens and thus could handle the split screen modes, etc it would be GAME OVER for Android.

    My Surface RT which I'm using now can occasionally get laggy if I leave a lot of programs in memory but I absolutely LOVE IT compared to using a tablet that is handicapped with the Android system which is generic and made for phones more than tablets.
    03-12-2014 09:28 PM
  22. Kebero's Avatar
    Split screen on a 5" or even 6" device? I don't think that Galaxy Note users even rely on that feature much.
    03-12-2014 09:45 PM
  23. raacut's Avatar
    People keep fooling themselves into thinking that limited apps is the only thing wrong with wp8. For me its the basic functionality that it lacks even though the OS is like 4 years old. The OS is miles behind the competition. wp8.1 is make or break for me. I feel its going to be make or break for a lot of ppl. I mean we just got screen orientation lock a few months ago lol.....
    jleebiker, A895 and Kashan Osama like this.
    03-13-2014 10:57 AM
  24. jleebiker's Avatar
    People keep fooling themselves into thinking that limited apps is the only thing wrong with wp8. For me its the basic functionality that it lacks even though the OS is like 4 years old. The OS is miles behind the competition. wp8.1 is make or break for me. I feel its going to be make or break for a lot of ppl. I mean we just got screen orientation lock a few months ago lol.....
    Yep. I have always missed how I could set a specific tone for my kids phone, text and email that were separate from each other and also separate from everyone else. BB had this what, 10 years ago? WP let's you specify a ring tone and text tone, but not EMAIL? WTF?!?! Why stop at ring tone and text tone? WHY NOT INCLUDE EMAIL as well? It's little things like that that bug me. This has nothing to do with the "app ecosystem". This is the OS we're talking about.
    03-13-2014 12:24 PM
  25. spicypadthai's Avatar
    I have only an Incipio Feather case and no screen protector (my daughter, who works in Best Buy's mobile department, is appalled), so that's not it. It happened to me again twice today, and I was playing around with it to see if the sensor was working. It seems to, but it is definitely touchy. It may be me moving the phone around against my head too much. I will definitely take it to the Microsoft store to get it checked out. I haven't had any other hardware problems though. The build quality is excellent.



    I appreciate your humor, and I know there's an etiquette point in there as well. The point is that with android, I can just scan the top of the phone and read what the notification is and know if it's important or not, and if (as it often happens) information has arrived that has bearing on my call.

    This phone is chirping and buzzing all the time, and I don't know if it's a weather update, the set of plans that the architect was sending me that might have the answer to the question I am trying to solve with the caller, an appointment reminder or a text telling me not to forget I left my car running in the parking lot. I spend a lot of time going form property to property, so my phone is often my entire office.



    I have been working on making my tiles more organized and informative. But I still have to take the time to look and discern what is happening, rather than just know what is happening. Here is a screenshot of my latest configuration (any tips for usability are appreciated):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	my_tiles.png 
Views:	16 
Size:	414.2 KB 
ID:	59435
    Real quick reaction is to go with smaller tiles for weather and calendar, especially if you're using the built in calendar app. It only displays one appointment at a time so I find the largest tile just takes up space. I go with the step down. Same for weather. If I want more info or an extended forecast, I'll open the app. I also moved my more frequently accessed tiles, i.e., email, text, etc., to the middle so it's easier to unlock the phone and open them with one hand. The tiles I access the least are at the bottom and top with the top being those I care more about seeing info on as it's more natural, reading top to bottom.
    03-13-2014 12:24 PM
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