10-10-2014 02:09 PM
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  1. MikeSo's Avatar
    Well, between all the wireless issues, occasional battery drain, and XBOX MUSIC, it's not really too shocking. I mean, the xbox music change alone would be enough to really frustrate your average user and make it near impossible to use.
    Except of course it's on the new phones anyway.
    09-08-2014 02:51 PM
  2. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Interesting...take with a Grain of salt but, look over the Disuss posts from rednibkram

    He seems to think the it will be a combo update but, not sure who this guy is....or if he is just one of us dreaming of it.. in OCTOBER....yep we are waiting a while longer if this is true...

    Full of features: Lumia Denim Update - Conversations
    09-08-2014 02:51 PM
  3. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    The difference is that WP8.1/Cyan is an OS AND firmware update; Denim is just a firmware update. Therefore, we'll get WP8.1/Cyan first because Denim will probably need WP8.1 to work. Also, because Denim is firmware only, that update should role out a bit faster. Verizon did a fairly decent job getting Black out in a timely manner last year. And I foresee Microsoft releasing Denim via developer preview like they did with Black last year.
    This is the third or fourth time you've said this and I'm surprised no one has corrected you yet. So I'll just go ahead and say something. Nokia and Microsoft tend to release firmware and software updates in tandem.

    Wp8.1 has been released along side Nokia Cyan
    Wp8.1 GDR 1 will be released alongside Nokia Denim

    Developer Preview users get general distribution releases, not firmware, through the program. If you are on the DP program, you've already received WP8.1 GDR 1. You would not, however, have denim yet as that has not yet been released to the public.
    MikeSo and feeked like this.
    09-08-2014 02:53 PM
  4. MikeSo's Avatar
    Based on the Verizon wireless release schedule for Android 4.4.x phones, Verizon has no problem skipping incremental versions. The Razr Maxx jumped from 4.4.0 to 4.4.4, the Galaxy S4 I believe jumped from 4.3 to 4.4.2. It does seem likely we will see Denim before I stop seeing nasty milkshake straw sized varicose veins on my shorts wearing co-workers' chicken legs. I mean before cyan.
    You're not implying that 8.1 is an incremental update, I hope.
    09-08-2014 02:53 PM
  5. Mr. Brown's Avatar
    This is the third or fourth time you've said this and I'm surprised no one has corrected you yet. So I'll just go ahead and say something. Nokia and Microsoft tend to release firmware and software updates in tandem.

    Wp8.1 has been released along side Nokia Cyan
    Wp8.1 GDR 1 will be released alongside Nokia Denim

    Developer Preview users get general distribution releases, not firmware, through the program. If you are on the DP program, you've already received WP8.1 GDR 1. You would not, however, have denim yet as that has not yet been released to the public.
    Lol, I just corrected him a few minutes before you did. My post is at the end of pg 16. Your response had much more detail though. ;)
    09-08-2014 02:58 PM
  6. Tepid's Avatar
    Tepid, just how are you "destroying" the testing arguments? By saying they aren't true? We've had VZW folks come on here before and detail what Verizon does during testing. As an Engineer myself I can pretty much guarantee you that they found an issue they aren't willing to release with. Remember, this phone's primary use case is on CDMA, not GSM/LTE (in terms of voice). Why else would they delay the software? They don't exactly have a bumper crop of WP flagships to sell. It's this and the One (M8). And most current users are too early in to upgrade. Further, they don't care if you choose one or the other as long as you sign on to a long contract. So what's their motivation?

    Knowing the stuff that can go wrong with radio tech, I'm much more inclined to believe that it's an issue that is causing this delay, as opposed to some sinister plot to make you hate your phone and want off their network for it (which is what these kind of antics would cause if they were doing it on purpose and people found out).
    Here's the thing, I am perfectly fine with that.
    In fact, if they said they were going to wait for Denim, I might be slightly ok with that.

    If they have come on here, and explained their process, you got a link?
    You saying there is info out here means ZERO. I don't know you, you don't know me.
    As far as you know I could be an ATT employee stirring up BS to hopfully drive customers my way.
    So, saying it, means nothing, without proof.

    I have nothing to prove, I'm just asking the questions, making assumptions based on being told nothing,
    you and others are positing the answers.
    We can believe them or not, take them for fact or not.
    But based on your statement, you are not sure either, your are inclined to believe, also means you are assuming.

    Also, there are plenty of reasons, and motives to delay.
    Making ZERO announcements and keeping everyone in the dark causes people to make assumptions
    Yeah, *** u me,, blah blah, Carriers DO have incentive to NOT release updates, or take so long as to cause obsoletion.
    You would think they wouldn't, but they do. Think about it.
    I am not saying this is fact, and no, we can't prove it, yet.
    Let's say a phone is out there that isn't doing so well.
    We all know everyone likes to say WP has no market share.
    So, what incentive does the carrier have to spend time and resources to testing an update?
    No one can say this is not an option. it actually is a perfectly good reason to a carrier.
    At the same time, I think it's time to delve into the inner workings of the cell phone in general
    A redesign may be in order to remove the Carrier from the equation.
    Why is everyone so against this separating the Carrier from the process?
    Don't say it can't be done, yes it can. And, I will make the bet that it will happen sooner or later.

    The dynamics of the devices have changed.
    I said it before I will say it again
    A Smart Phone is no longer a Cell Phone First.
    It's a micro computer that happens to make Phone calls.


    Thankfully MS made an end run around with Dev Preview.
    And let me tell you, WP8.1.1 is frigging sweet, I am very happy I didn't have to wait for a carrier to APPROVE and TEST it.
    As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, you can't just install the latest Android OS, unless you find a leak and root it.
    You have to wait for OTA.

    And I am not alone in questioning these things as you can see.

    There is a lot of confusion surrounding how updates get passed down and what is involved.
    I read the articles surrounding the update process. But even those are not entirely clear.
    Once a manufacturer/developer is done with it, they pass it on to the carrier
    The carrier does testing and approval, The Carrier's DO NOT just do testing ONLY.
    They tear it apart and add their own stuff and test it, till THEIR stuff works.

    There is a break down/bottleneck that causes issues and it's at the Carrier.
    In many instances, I can guarantee you it is completely unnecessary.
    MikeSo likes this.
    09-08-2014 03:02 PM
  7. gernerttl's Avatar
    This is the third or fourth time you've said this and I'm surprised no one has corrected you yet. So I'll just go ahead and say something. Nokia and Microsoft tend to release firmware and software updates in tandem.

    Wp8.1 has been released along side Nokia Cyan
    Wp8.1 GDR 1 will be released alongside Nokia Denim

    Developer Preview users get general distribution releases, not firmware, through the program. If you are on the DP program, you've already received WP8.1 GDR 1. You would not, however, have denim yet as that has not yet been released to the public.
    Yes that is true Microsoft/Nokia does do that. But, in the case of Denim it is STILL WP8.1. Whereas the WP8.1/Cyan update is being updated from WP8.0/Black. THAT is the difference. And though going from WP8.0/Black to WP8.1/Cyan is technically (by software versioning standards) an incremental update, it is still a bigger difference than going from WP8.1 to WP8.1 Update 1. The difference is this:

    WP8.0.10521.155 w/Black -> WP8.10.12400.899 w/Cyan versus. WP8.10.12400.899 w/Cyan -> WP8.10.14147.180 w/Denim.

    (source: Windows Phone version history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    The "updates" as they are called now (Microsoft dropped the GDR moniker), are not so much to add functionality (though they do add some), but to fix OS bugs and other known problems on ALL compatible WP devices.

    Firmware updates such as Amber, Black, Cyan, and (now) Denim, are for Nokia/Microsoft devices ONLY; you do NOT need any of them to run WP8.1 or WP8.1 Update 1. Just take a look at the HTC One W8. It runs WP8.1 sans Cyan; and will NEVER get Denim...though it will get WP8.1 Update 1. HTC (and Samsung) have their own firmware that it will either update directly or go through the carriers.

    And yes, you can get the firmware updates via the developer preview program if you have a Nokia/Microsoft device. I got the Black update about two months(ish) before it was released to the carriers for testing.
    09-08-2014 03:45 PM
  8. Mr. Brown's Avatar
    Here's the thing, I am perfectly fine with that.
    In fact, if they said they were going to wait for Denim, I might be slightly ok with that.

    If they have come on here, and explained their process, you got a link?
    You saying there is info out here means ZERO. I don't know you, you don't know me.
    As far as you know I could be an ATT employee stirring up BS to hopfully drive customers my way.
    So, saying it, means nothing, without proof.

    I have nothing to prove, I'm just asking the questions, making assumptions based on being told nothing,
    you and others are positing the answers.
    We can believe them or not, take them for fact or not.
    But based on your statement, you are not sure either, your are inclined to believe, also means you are assuming.

    Also, there are plenty of reasons, and motives to delay.
    Making ZERO announcements and keeping everyone in the dark causes people to make assumptions
    Yeah, *** u me,, blah blah, Carriers DO have incentive to NOT release updates, or take so long as to cause obsoletion.
    You would think they wouldn't, but they do. Think about it.
    I am not saying this is fact, and no, we can't prove it, yet.
    Let's say a phone is out there that isn't doing so well.
    We all know everyone likes to say WP has no market share.
    So, what incentive does the carrier have to spend time and resources to testing an update?
    No one can say this is not an option. it actually is a perfectly good reason to a carrier.
    At the same time, I think it's time to delve into the inner workings of the cell phone in general
    A redesign may be in order to remove the Carrier from the equation.
    Why is everyone so against this separating the Carrier from the process?
    Don't say it can't be done, yes it can. And, I will make the bet that it will happen sooner or later.

    The dynamics of the devices have changed.
    I said it before I will say it again
    A Smart Phone is no longer a Cell Phone First.
    It's a micro computer that happens to make Phone calls.


    Thankfully MS made an end run around with Dev Preview.
    And let me tell you, WP8.1.1 is frigging sweet, I am very happy I didn't have to wait for a carrier to APPROVE and TEST it.
    As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, you can't just install the latest Android OS, unless you find a leak and root it.
    You have to wait for OTA.

    And I am not alone in questioning these things as you can see.

    There is a lot of confusion surrounding how updates get passed down and what is involved.
    I read the articles surrounding the update process. But even those are not entirely clear.
    Once a manufacturer/developer is done with it, they pass it on to the carrier
    The carrier does testing and approval, The Carrier's DO NOT just do testing ONLY.
    They tear it apart and add their own stuff and test it, till THEIR stuff works.

    There is a break down/bottleneck that causes issues and it's at the Carrier.
    In many instances, I can guarantee you it is completely unnecessary.
    I agree with a lot of your points, except where break down/bottlenecks by the Carrier are unnecessary. I've been running DP on my Lumia 920 and my Lumia Icon since the beginning. While my 920 has been pretty flawless, my Icon hasn't. With my Icon I was constantly resetting it (power and volume down keys) because it was freezing, getting stuck at loading... apps, getting hot, and battery drain. Thankfully the recent DP updates have fixed all of those issue. If VZ would have released the update OTA soon after 8.1 was released, they would have shot themselves in the foot and it would have also hurt Microsoft/WP. Could it be released now with the current updates, probably, but I believe they are waiting for complete testing with VoLTE.
    09-08-2014 03:51 PM
  9. Dreamspell's Avatar
    I only got the GDR3 OS update for 8.0 with the preview program. I had to wait for firmware to be approved and released for my device, my past 720.

    Get GDR3 today: Microsoft announces Windows Phone Preview for Developers | Windows Phone Central

    Any catches? There are only a few caveats users face by participating

    This only includes the OS update, not device specific firmware i.e. this is not Nokia's 'Bittersweet shimmer'; users should remain with their current firmware and will not lose it
    09-08-2014 03:53 PM
  10. wpfan2be's Avatar
    As other have mentioned before, I wish MS would just remove the carrier from the equation. Look at Apple and the iPhone, they control the phone, the apps installed on it, no bloat-ware from the carriers, and when there is an update it just rolls out for everyone. Why can't MS do the same?
    09-08-2014 04:09 PM
  11. gernerttl's Avatar
    Btw. I almost forgot.

    Are we there yet?

    nunyazz likes this.
    09-08-2014 04:20 PM
  12. gernerttl's Avatar
    As other have mentioned before, I wish MS would just remove the carrier from the equation. Look at Apple and the iPhone, they control the phone, the apps installed on it, no bloat-ware from the carriers, and when there is an update it just rolls out for everyone. Why can't MS do the same?
    I totally agree. The problem is Apple has the muscle to work deals like that, whereas Google and Microsoft don't. The only way I foresee this changing is if Verizon and the other carriers' update delays adversely affect the sale of Windows devices in general and Microsoft/Nokia devices in particular significantly.

    Even though Verizon puts its bloatware on Windows Phones, the upshot is unlike Android, you can uninstall them.
    09-08-2014 04:27 PM
  13. Kieta's Avatar
    Dammit, 17 pages, I lose. :(
    Indistinguishable and nunyazz like this.
    09-08-2014 04:39 PM
  14. zrob7's Avatar
    Btw. I almost forgot.

    Are we there yet?

    I think we are near......never, have I seen so much useless info.....the good thing is.......... "soon" .....is getting closer
    09-08-2014 04:52 PM
  15. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    And yes, you can get the firmware updates via the developer preview program if you have a Nokia/Microsoft device. I got the Black update about two months(ish) before it was released to the carriers for testing.
    No, you didn't.

    Unless you're claiming that you have a developer device (http://www.windowscentral.com/psa-de...iew-developers) which has been given to you directly by Microsoft, you do not get firmware updates through the Developer Preview program. And even if you did have a developer device, they don't get firmware two months before carriers receive it. That's rubbish.

    Everyone gets firmware the exact same way, an OTA update.
    gernerttl likes this.
    09-08-2014 05:58 PM
  16. gernerttl's Avatar
    Dammit, 17 pages, I lose. :(
    Sorry. It was probably my fault.
    09-08-2014 10:48 PM
  17. gernerttl's Avatar
    No, you didn't.

    Unless you're claiming that you have a developer device (PSA €“ Developer devices are not the same as Preview for Developers (and no, you are not getting Cyan) | Windows Phone Central) which has been given to you directly by Microsoft, you do not get firmware updates through the Developer Preview program. And even if you did have a developer device, they don't get firmware two months before carriers receive it. That's rubbish.

    Everyone gets firmware the exact same way, an OTA update.
    You're right. I didn't I confused the GDR 3 update for Black. GDR 3 came with Glance and Double Tap to Wake and I looked it up after I hit the post quick reply button. So how long do I wear the dunce cap?

    P.S. How do I get a PSA for developer device? That would be cool.
    09-08-2014 10:51 PM
  18. gernerttl's Avatar
    I think we are near......never, have I seen so much useless info.....the good thing is.......... "soon" .....is getting closer
    Oh, just wait when Denim is released to the carriers. Then the fun will start up all over again... On second thought, it kinda already has.
    09-08-2014 10:56 PM
  19. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    You're right. I didn't I confused the GDR 3 update for Black. GDR 3 came with Glance and Double Tap to Wake and I looked it up after I hit the post quick reply button. So how long do I wear the dunce cap?

    P.S. How do I get a PSA for developer device? That would be cool.
    You must wear the dunce cap until Verizon releases WP8.1/Cyan. So maybe another two or three months?
    gernerttl and DavidinCT like this.
    09-09-2014 08:30 AM
  20. loki993's Avatar
    I totally agree. The problem is Apple has the muscle to work deals like that, whereas Google and Microsoft don't. The only way I foresee this changing is if Verizon and the other carriers' update delays adversely affect the sale of Windows devices in general and Microsoft/Nokia devices in particular significantly.

    Even though Verizon puts its bloatware on Windows Phones, the upshot is unlike Android, you can uninstall them.
    Google most certainly has the muscle to work deals. The sad fact is Google WONT..not cant.


    This is getting a bit annoying though...according to that timeline 8.1 release sheet that came out a few months ago we were supposed to get it August, which was still behind other phones. Now ere coming up to the middle of September and we still dont have it and have no idea when were getting it.
    09-09-2014 08:59 AM
  21. Chrono803's Avatar
    I believe this seems interesting...looking at Nokia's availability page most carriers in the US haven't released it yet other than AT&T.
    09-09-2014 09:07 AM
  22. Tjarren's Avatar
    I still think that VoLTE is the hold up. Verizon wants to make sure the Icon works with it so it can brag about how many devices are VoLTE compatible when it starts heavily advertising it. It's the only thing that makes sense of this long delay to me ...
    09-09-2014 10:52 AM
  23. lylone's Avatar
    The probably wanted to wait until after the iphone6 is announced in the hopes of everyone wanting to get one. Wonder when it will be launched...
    09-09-2014 11:48 AM
  24. awilliams1701's Avatar
    I doubt that. You either want or don't want an iphone. Any changes to windows phone will not change that. Not at this point. In the future if people see what windows phone has to offer and it gets more mainstream support, yes it could happen, but not currently.

    The probably wanted to wait until after the iphone6 is announced in the hopes of everyone wanting to get one. Wonder when it will be launched...
    gernerttl and PAC757 like this.
    09-09-2014 12:22 PM
  25. gernerttl's Avatar
    I still think that VoLTE is the hold up. Verizon wants to make sure the Icon works with it so it can brag about how many devices are VoLTE compatible when it starts heavily advertising it. It's the only thing that makes sense of this long delay to me ...
    Hmmm... I don't think that is the case. We already have the ability to do voice over LTE with apps like Vonage and Skype (which does video too). To some of you this may sound like an over simplification, but, VoLTE is the same as VoIP except running over a LTE data network versus a "traditional" internet connection.
    09-09-2014 01:43 PM
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