01-03-2017 01:41 PM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    No, I was not assuming that the only way for an update to be delayed is for it to fail carrier testing- that was the point. I agreed with LITHOS that it was more likely due to marketing or business drivers. I would consider your proposed scenario to be one of many possible business drivers. I have no doubt that Verizon prioritizes its best interest first and foremost.
    Ah. Got it. I'm so used to most considering only the technical issues, that I overlook it when people actually are talking about business decisions. You're right of course. Sorry for the detour.
    NancyAnnL likes this.
    10-13-2014 06:57 PM
  2. gernerttl's Avatar
    No, I was not assuming that the only way for an update to be delayed is for it to fail carrier testing- that was the point. I agreed with LITHOS that it was more likely due to marketing or business drivers. I would consider your proposed scenario to be one of many possible business drivers. I have no doubt that Verizon prioritizes its best interest first and foremost.
    In this kind of industry, the tech side directly affects the business side. If Verizon's network gets compromised because of a technical glitch, then its business is directly and negatively affected.
    10-13-2014 07:16 PM
  3. kencaz's Avatar
    In this kind of industry, the tech side directly affects the business side. If Verizon's network gets compromised because of a technical glitch, then its business is directly and negatively affected.
    Yes, but it is also true that Verizon purposely not trying to sell customers windows phone has directly and negatively affected Microsoft's business. Unfortunately though we are the loser's.
    10-13-2014 08:00 PM
  4. MobileVortex's Avatar
    My only issue is that they wont even comment. The idea that no news is better then saying "we've had some issues but are working on it" or even " there is issues and its never coming" is just terrible CS IMHO.
    11B1P likes this.
    10-13-2014 08:07 PM
  5. anywhereanytime's Avatar
    I work for a telecom company and I can tell you that this is incorrect.

    Firmware is created neither by the carriers nor MS. That is completely up to OEMs. Carriers don't actually touch anything related to software on any WP device, but OEMs can create as many firmware versions as is necessary to support the various carriers. Carriers just expect that to already be setup and ready to go, when the OEM hands them their first test candidate.

    So, carriers do a lot of testing per device, but none of their own development. Zero. MS and Nokia have replicated most carriers entire testing process in house, so it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.

    If errors are found, they are usually in areas unrelated to carrier testing.
    WOW ... FINALLY, the "facts" ... I have scoured a dozen threads looking for this ... THANK YOU!

    So, It actually "may be" MICROSOFT is the problem with "transparency" and not the "bad guys" Verizon - who ONLY CARE about milking us for every dollar they can" (3 grandfathered lines and paying full price for every phone) - who we mostly all hate for all of the other crap they have done to use over the years???

    Joe Belifore is now Vice President for ALL Windows and NOT just Windows Phone ... anyone know who that person is?
    10-13-2014 10:02 PM
  6. BlueSky2008's Avatar
    If Verizon decide to retire Icon then Microsoft should allow user upgrade Firmware directly because Microsoft/Nokia update firmware (Cyan, Denim,...) and send to Verizon, at this time Verizon verify to check if new firmware is stable for Verizon's network so if Verizon does it then I think it save time when Microsoft release new OS and new FW for Icon.

    We should raise our voice to Microsoft and request them to provide Cyan and Denim to Icon

    iPhone is evident.
    10-14-2014 02:13 AM
  7. UncleGrandpa's Avatar
    My icon works perfectly with WP 8. If it was never updated, I wouldn't care. Does everything remarkably well.
    STXVI likes this.
    10-14-2014 04:45 AM
  8. NOLATechy's Avatar
    AT&T has been upgrading their network dramatically over the past 3 years. If you haven't tried AT&T in a while, you might want to ask someone who has it. My neighbors switched back to AT&T here in New Orleans and their LTE speeds are actually faster than my XLTE speeds on Verizon. The only reason I'm with Verizon is to see if the Icon gets Denim. The Icon, to me, is the BEST Windows Phone on the market (spec-wise) and I wouldn't want to lose that. The 1520 is just as good, but the size is a bit big. However, if Verizon doesn't give us the Denim update by December, I will just get used to a larger phone and head back to AT&T myself.
    Montpbm likes this.
    10-14-2014 06:13 AM
  9. nunyazz's Avatar
    I have to say that Verizon still out does AT&T in New Orleans for me, especially in the Dome. I get fill bars on Verizon, while friends can't get squat on AT&T.
    10-14-2014 06:48 AM
  10. wpfan2be's Avatar
    Did you guys see this? New Lumia with dual-SIM and more found at the FCC.

    Just recently, Microsofts new phone model number RM-1090 was spotted in the FCC.

    New Lumia with dual-SIM and more found at the FCC
    10-14-2014 07:06 AM
  11. AR2186's Avatar
    If we don't see at least Denim by mid December (around Dec 15th or so), I will pursue this, unless someone else starts it.

    Something needs to be done in this case, I could see if it was a 3 year old phone or something but, it's not even 9 months old.... Verizon cant get away with this.



    It does cost them money, They need Devs to update this "firmware that was received from Nokia" to make it compatible with their network, these devs are NOT CHEAP. Then they need to send it out to employees who will use and test for a while, all at a extra cost, then you need another team to take a list of bugs, confirm the issues, then back to the devs to fix, and release new update and test again..

    Rinse and repeat till 95% of the bugs are out...

    Yep, it does cost them money and no it's not cheap...
    As far as I understood it, the firmware is created and fixed by Microsoft Mobile, not VZW. VZW literally just needs to test it, which they should do by crowdsourcing feedback in a beta program like we see Microsoft doing with W10 (which is why they got rid of so many Windows testers) and Apple does by releasing buggy firmware (8.0.1 anyone?).

    I'll be the first to stand up and volunteer to be a part of this program for VZW. I know I can just roll back to 8.0 with the recovery tool anyway, so why not.
    10-14-2014 09:08 AM
  12. AR2186's Avatar
    What if . . . Something in Cyan and the ICON was just totally fubar - Verizon, Nokia, et al would probably not want to admit any culpability so silence is the best policy. Maybe Denim will fix it ???? I am a retired electrical engineer and the Icon is my first smart phone. I love it - and I love the WP OS. I really can't complain my phone works great and does amazing things. It is just tough when you know there is more stuff available but we can't have it :(
    I actually think this is what happened, with Verizon being very conservative (to put it nicely) with updates, the problem people had with BitLocker encrypted phones, and tweaks to the radios with CDMA, I am not surprised it has taken so long. That said, all of that should be fixed already and I think it's as much to do with the M8 launch, which hasn't gone great, as it has to do with the firmware. At that point, they probably said "F___ it, lets just release Denim in Q4." I still think it's crazy, but hopefully it never made it out, but I am hoping someone leaks the firmware and we can be off to the races.

    I bought the phone at full retail, and absolutely love it, but the wifi signal strength issues and horrible battery life (phone runs incredibly hot) are a huge problem. I ended up getting the M8 at the subsidized price, and it absolutely flies, runs cool and is all around amazing, with one MAJOR flaw - the camera is horrendous compared to my Icon. I love my m8, but I wake up every morning to check Navifirm+ and see if the Icon Cyan or Denim firmware has gone live there (which usually happens 1-2 days before roll out). The moment it goes live, I go back to the Icon and use the M8 as my backup. I've had a ton of smartphones over the years (including an iPhone 6 for work), and the Icon blows them all away when you consider the entire package. I may end up waiting for a 930 with US LTE bands (if it exists) to come down in price, buy an unlocked one and switch to Cricket. Hopefully selling the Icon will keep take some of the sting away.

    Also, if any of you guys can tolerate AT&T's service (which has gotten a LOT better since I had my iPhone 4 in 2012), consider switching to Cricket. Unlimited data, talk and text with a limit to how much LTE data you get, much like T-Mobile, but on AT&T's network. Plans are about the same price, but if you have a family, you get increasing discounts the more people you bring up to 5 people (think you get $90 off list for 5 lines) and you also get $5 off for signing up for auto payment. 2gb per person came to something like $135 total. Plus with the new T-Mobile pressure, all these guys are going to keep upping the amount of data you get.
    10-14-2014 09:21 AM
  13. AR2186's Avatar
    I work for a telecom company and I can tell you that this is incorrect.



    Firmware is created neither by the carriers nor MS. That is completely up to OEMs. Carriers don't actually touch anything related to OS/firmware development on any WP device, but OEMs can create as many firmware versions as is necessary to support the various carriers. Carriers just expect that to already be setup and ready to go, when the OEM hands them their first test candidate.



    So, carriers do a lot of testing per device, but none of their own OS/firmware development. Zero. MS and Nokia have replicated some carrier's entire testing process in house, so it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.



    If errors are found, they are usually in areas unrelated to carrier testing.
    I think people were using Microsoft in this case as "Microsoft Mobile Oyj", which was the OEM for the Icon and formerly known as Nokia's devices and services business.
    10-14-2014 09:24 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    I think people were using Microsoft in this case as "Microsoft Mobile Oyj", which was the OEM for the Icon and formerly known as Nokia's devices and services business.


    Mostly true. However, the post I had quoted specifically claimed that carriers work on firmware themselves, which is what I wanted to correct.
    10-14-2014 10:23 AM
  15. feeked's Avatar
    I don't work for a U.S. carrier, so I have no idea what the issue may be with the Icon. I can only speculate. I think it's likely that Verizon completed Cyan testing, only to have MS cancel it due to the BitLocker bug. By the time MS offered a fix, Verizon was probably already being asked to schedule testing for Update 1 + Denim . I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon just decided to skip Cyan and go straight to Denim in the hope of saving themselves some work. But again, that's only my guess.
    this has been my assumption until the retirement thing. now i'm not so sure.
    10-14-2014 10:35 AM
  16. airjeff's Avatar
    You don't need to worry about it. There are a lot of people upset because Verizon is retiring the phone. It's a great phone and I enjoy mine. I'm more upset because there isn't another high end Lumia to replace it. Microsoft has committed to supporting the phones. Much of the concern right now is because Verizon has not released the Cyan update. Theories on why they are waiting varies greatly, but Verizon is known to be very slow and withhold updates to help promote other phones. For now we just get to be patient waiting for updates...easier said than done.
    10-14-2014 11:55 AM
  17. awilliams1701's Avatar
    I wonder if I'm the only person that hasn't had issues with the Icon. WIFI is perfect and just as good as the 928. However I should point out, I'm using the 5GHZ band not the 2.4 band. I've had it get really hot only once. I felt like my pants were on fire, but then it started to cool down. Never happened again since and that was like 4 months ago.
    10-14-2014 01:00 PM
  18. MikeSo's Avatar
    I wonder if I'm the only person that hasn't had issues with the Icon. WIFI is perfect and just as good as the 928. However I should point out, I'm using the 5GHZ band not the 2.4 band. I've had it get really hot only once. I felt like my pants were on fire, but then it started to cool down. Never happened again since and that was like 4 months ago.
    I'm hoping the firmware update will fix the WiFi, as it's terrible in comparison to my other devices (and honestly I think you have the issue too, you are just not aware of it as much because of your circumstances, or you might be right that it's a frequency issue). I documented the issues in other threads, so I won't reiterate them here, suffice it to say that in the exact same locations and with the exact same settings, my Lumia 521 and 635 both get stronger signals and pick up more available networks than my Icon does. I'm HOPING it's a firmware issue and that Cyan (or Denim ;)) can fix it, but it could just simply be poor hardware design. I've gotten used to it, and honestly it's not a big deal, but it's probably the most disappointing aspect of the phone.

    The heat issue is noticeable when using connection-intensive websites or apps such as Messenger, disqus.com or facebook.com for more than a few minutes, but it's obviously related to power drain which could be taken care of by fixing those apps. I doubt it's firmware or hardware related, but it might be. Maybe the networking hardware needs new firmware to deal with it.
    10-14-2014 02:00 PM
  19. Tjarren's Avatar
    I wonder if I'm the only person that hasn't had issues with the Icon. WIFI is perfect and just as good as the 928. However I should point out, I'm using the 5GHZ band not the 2.4 band. I've had it get really hot only once. I felt like my pants were on fire, but then it started to cool down. Never happened again since and that was like 4 months ago.
    Play Wheel of Wealth and tell me if it doesn't turn into The Burning Wrath of IKON, GOD OF FIRE ...
    Surmisation and SoapBox3000 like this.
    10-14-2014 02:26 PM
  20. Surmisation's Avatar
    Play Wheel of Wealth and tell me if it doesn't turn into The Burning Wrath of IKON, GOD OF FIRE ...
    Prelude & Encore.
    I'm mind boggled.
    10-14-2014 02:54 PM
  21. juliosa2's Avatar
    My Icon also works well, I'm in Colombia buy mine on ebay for $ 550 three months ago. The phone works perfectly LTE and has no problems with messages, the call quality is very good, the battery life with moderate usage exceeds the full day, the photos are very good, the only thing is that it warms up a bit with facebbook application and I think that the ringer volume is a bit low, everything else I'm happy with my phone, I would like to have the Cyan and dennim upgrade, which provides for additional operating system nokia ...
    10-14-2014 03:10 PM
  22. NancyAnnL's Avatar
    I wonder if I'm the only person that hasn't had issues with the Icon. WIFI is perfect and just as good as the 928. However I should point out, I'm using the 5GHZ band not the 2.4 band. I've had it get really hot only once. I felt like my pants were on fire, but then it started to cool down. Never happened again since and that was like 4 months ago.
    Ouch! I guess that's where we ladies are lucky- I never carry my phone in a pants pocket.

    pants-fire-496x600.jpg
    nunyazz, DavidinCT and gernerttl like this.
    10-14-2014 03:15 PM
  23. Timtcee's Avatar
    I contacted Verizon today about cyan/denim for the Icon and all they did was refer me to a link they have for their "news and updates" page which of course had nothing to say about the Icon getting an update.
    10-14-2014 06:29 PM
  24. Timtcee's Avatar
    Ouch! I guess that's where we ladies are lucky- I never carry my phone in a pants pocket.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    @nancyannl- my Icon gets hot quite a bit when it's in my pocket. A few times I had inadvertently had the camera on so I thought maybe that was it but it happened again tonight and the camera was not on. I never had a Lumia phone do this before.
    10-14-2014 06:32 PM
  25. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I contacted Verizon today about cyan/denim for the Icon and all they did was refer me to a link they have for their "news and updates" page which of course had nothing to say about the Icon getting an update.
    Nothing new, that is all they will do is provide you a link to their news page that if you go back quite a ways, you wont find anything for Windows Phone....

    Same old crap..
    10-14-2014 07:04 PM
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