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  1. MikeSo's Avatar
    Come on, you know that's what we're waiting for now!

    This is what we heard about Lumia Denim update roll-out. | NPU

    Lumia Denim may start rolling out in phases to Lumia devices starting last week of October to First week of November. The complete roll-out schedule may stretch to 2 months and it may not be before end of December that it rolls out to all the Lumia devices out there.

    Now, the timelines are really tricky to know and are subjected to change in background. In past there have seen cases when we had known that somethings are going to happen on a particular date only later to find it changed by Nokia / Microsoft. So, while the above mentioned Lumia Denim roll-out timelines come from trusted sources, they are in no way Sacrosanct.
    Yeah, a truckload of salt with this one. But can't we hope that this will come to the Icon first?? It is one of only 2 devices, the other one being the 1520, that can take advantage of 4K recording, I believe...

    Let's hope it'll show up again in Verizon inventory with a snazzy new Denim firmware and we can say "The Icon is dead, long live the Icon!"
    10-10-2014 04:45 PM
  2. Patriots1959's Avatar
    All hope is lost. This is the end. I fear there will be update for the icon.
    JBM425 likes this.
    10-10-2014 04:55 PM
  3. awilliams1701's Avatar
    No chance in hell. We can't even get Cyan.
    10-10-2014 05:00 PM
  4. spicypadthai's Avatar
    +Retired
    10-10-2014 07:06 PM
  5. GoJays's Avatar
    Wasn't there something about the VoLTE capabilities of Denim that made this more attractive? There is precedence now that a company (O2 in Europe) will release Cyan and Denim at the same time...
    MikeSo likes this.
    10-10-2014 07:24 PM
  6. SteveNoza's Avatar
    Oh, Oh, Gernertti, a new post that will go to 75 pages, make more popcorn!
    10-10-2014 08:57 PM
  7. HarrBear's Avatar
    On a positive note, I took the plunge in PFD, and so far so good! Word flow is really nice.
    miketworld929 likes this.
    10-10-2014 10:22 PM
  8. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Ah, they closed the Cyan thread, so here we go again ! :)

    The key thing to note. Cyan and Denim was announced before the ICON was "retired". As the phone was current when it was announced, I expect we should be getting these updates. If you saw my other thread, If we don't get Denim by mid (based on above) December, I think we should create a class action lawsuit against Verizon Wireless.

    Will we get it? unsure at this point but, based off the 930 and 1520 will get it, I would bet Verizon still would send it down after their so called "testing".

    If Verizon didn't have me by the balls on better coverage in my area and unlimited data, I would change to AT&T in heartbeat. It would be nice to get some actual support for Windows Phone, something that Verizon seems to care less about.
    Timtcee, JBM425 and TheArcaneFlame like this.
    10-11-2014 09:54 AM
  9. captbixley's Avatar
    What if . . . Something in Cyan and the ICON was just totally fubar - Verizon, Nokia, et al would probably not want to admit any culpability so silence is the best policy. Maybe Denim will fix it ???? I am a retired electrical engineer and the Icon is my first smart phone. I love it - and I love the WP OS. I really can't complain my phone works great and does amazing things. It is just tough when you know there is more stuff available but we can't have it :(
    10-11-2014 10:21 AM
  10. awilliams1701's Avatar
    The 930 launched with Cyan and its basically the same phone. So no that's not the case at all.

    What if . . . Something in Cyan and the ICON was just totally fubar - Verizon, Nokia, et al would probably not want to admit any culpability so silence is the best policy. Maybe Denim will fix it ???? I am a retired electrical engineer and the Icon is my first smart phone. I love it - and I love the WP OS. I really can't complain my phone works great and does amazing things. It is just tough when you know there is more stuff available but we can't have it :(
    Matt Dargis likes this.
    10-11-2014 11:20 AM
  11. NancyAnnL's Avatar
    Ah, they closed the Cyan thread, so here we go again ! :)

    The key thing to note. Cyan and Denim was announced before the ICON was "retired". As the phone was current when it was announced, I expect we should be getting these updates. If you saw my other thread, If we don't get Denim by mid (based on above) December, I think we should create a class action lawsuit against Verizon Wireless.

    Will we get it? unsure at this point but, based off the 930 and 1520 will get it, I would bet Verizon still would send it down after their so called "testing".

    If Verizon didn't have me by the balls on better coverage in my area and unlimited data, I would change to AT&T in heartbeat. It would be nice to get some actual support for Windows Phone, something that Verizon seems to care less about.
    Hope you're right. I'm in the same boat with Verizon- with their crazy captain at the helm.
    Montpbm likes this.
    10-11-2014 11:33 AM
  12. Timtcee's Avatar
    is it that it costs Verizon money to send us the Cyan/Denim update? I just don't understand why they wouldn't. Or do they want us to buy the latest Windows phone with Denim when it comes out on Verizon? It makes no sense. Like many- if AT&T had better coverage I would switch in a heart beat.
    10-11-2014 08:53 PM
  13. 11B1P's Avatar
    Ah, they closed the Cyan thread...
    It will pick up elsewhere
    DavidinCT likes this.
    10-11-2014 09:37 PM
  14. gernerttl's Avatar
    Oh, Oh, Gernertti, a new post that will go to 75 pages, make more popcorn!
    Sure thing! Hahahahaha!
    Attached Thumbnails colbert-popcorn.gif  
    DavidinCT likes this.
    10-12-2014 01:20 AM
  15. gernerttl's Avatar
    The 930 launched with Cyan and its basically the same phone. So no that's not the case at all.
    Other than the CDMA thing. You're right.
    PanWorks likes this.
    10-12-2014 01:22 AM
  16. AR2186's Avatar
    Ah, they closed the Cyan thread, so here we go again ! :)

    The key thing to note. Cyan and Denim was announced before the ICON was "retired". As the phone was current when it was announced, I expect we should be getting these updates. If you saw my other thread, If we don't get Denim by mid (based on above) December, I think we should create a class action lawsuit against Verizon Wireless.

    Will we get it? unsure at this point but, based off the 930 and 1520 will get it, I would bet Verizon still would send it down after their so called "testing".

    If Verizon didn't have me by the balls on better coverage in my area and unlimited data, I would change to AT&T in heartbeat. It would be nice to get some actual support for Windows Phone, something that Verizon seems to care less about.
    I'm starting to get on board with your Class Action idea, especially since Microsoft officially announced the Icon would be getting Denim and "Hey Cortana"

    We told you there'd be #morelumia - Conversations
    The new Hey Cortana feature available will also come to the Lumia 1520, Lumia 930 and Lumia Icon, allowing you hands-free access to Cortana, waking up your most helpful digital assistant with just the sound of your voice calling out Hey Cortana.
    10-13-2014 10:50 AM
  17. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I'm starting to get on board with your Class Action idea, especially since Microsoft officially announced the Icon would be getting Denim and "Hey Cortana"

    We told you there'd be #morelumia - Conversations
    If we don't see at least Denim by mid December (around Dec 15th or so), I will pursue this, unless someone else starts it.

    Something needs to be done in this case, I could see if it was a 3 year old phone or something but, it's not even 9 months old.... Verizon cant get away with this.

    is it that it costs Verizon money to send us the Cyan/Denim update? I just don't understand why they wouldn't. Or do they want us to buy the latest Windows phone with Denim when it comes out on Verizon? It makes no sense. Like many- if AT&T had better coverage I would switch in a heart beat.
    It does cost them money, They need Devs to update this "firmware that was received from Nokia" to make it compatible with their network, these devs are NOT CHEAP. Then they need to send it out to employees who will use and test for a while, all at a extra cost, then you need another team to take a list of bugs, confirm the issues, then back to the devs to fix, and release new update and test again..

    Rinse and repeat till 95% of the bugs are out...

    Yep, it does cost them money and no it's not cheap...
    10-13-2014 11:36 AM
  18. dkediger's Avatar
    I would be pretty sure those firmware devs are actually Microsoft folks. The carriers just have to load/test the firmware, send feedback to the dev group, and eventually say yea/nay, but I would bet all the firmware dev and carrier specific mods are done by Microsoft or devs under contract to Microsoft.
    MikeSo and MicrosoftCoreFan like this.
    10-13-2014 12:03 PM
  19. anotherlab's Avatar
    I don't think that is accurate. Microsoft provides the base firmware, but carriers make their own tweaks and they need to verify that both the base and their tweaks will work on their network. For example, Verizon changes the MMS settings app and removes the ability to change the MMS settings.

    Historically, Verizon has had a less than stellar record getting new firmware releases out. Since they are no longer selling the Icon, they have no incentive for providing any new firmware updates for that device.

    I really like the camera on the Icon, but I'm considering trading it in for an iPhone 6 or the HTC One.
    Neil Hinkle likes this.
    10-13-2014 12:59 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    It does cost them money, They need Devs to update this "firmware that was received from Nokia" to make it compatible with their network, these devs are NOT CHEAP. Then they need to send it out to employees who will use and test for a while, all at a extra cost, then you need another team to take a list of bugs, confirm the issues, then back to the devs to fix, and release new update and test again..

    Rinse and repeat till 95% of the bugs are out...
    I work for a telecom company and I can tell you that this is incorrect.

    Firmware is created neither by the carriers nor MS. That is completely up to OEMs. Carriers don't actually touch anything related to OS/firmware development on any WP device, but OEMs can create as many firmware versions as is necessary to support the various carriers. Carriers just expect that to already be setup and ready to go, when the OEM hands them their first test candidate.

    So, carriers do a lot of testing per device, but none of their own OS/firmware development. Zero. MS and Nokia have replicated some carrier's entire testing process in house, so it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.

    If errors are found, they are usually in areas unrelated to carrier testing.

    EDIT:
    Here I'm disputing only that carriers have any direct contact with the firmware. Above I stated that MS doesn't make firmware, but this has changed due to Nokia merging with MS. Instead of MS, I should have said "OS developer". I wanted to refer more to the role than to any specific company. The OS developer doesn't make firmware, and neither does the carrier.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-15-2014 at 02:29 PM. Reason: formatting + EDIT
    10-13-2014 01:24 PM
  21. lithos's Avatar
    it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.
    I understand that it's not impossible for a device to fail carrier testing, but in the case of the Icon how likely is it that an unforeseen technological issue is at the root of the non-release, rather than marketing or business drivers?
    NancyAnnL likes this.
    10-13-2014 01:49 PM
  22. NancyAnnL's Avatar
    I understand that it's not impossible for a device to fail carrier testing, but in the case of the Icon how likely is it that an unforeseen technological issue is at the root of the non-release, rather than marketing or business drivers?
    IMO, it seems VERY unlikely.
    10-13-2014 02:10 PM
  23. puckrazy1's Avatar
    So I just picked up the Icon on 10/4 and they "retired" it five days later. That's bad, right? 10+ years with AT&T and had my fill of the iPhone. Switched the whole family specifically for the Icon (they can get an iPhone anywhere). Being a long time iPhone user you just don't deal with this kind of stuff. Don't regret it though. It's a great phone.
    JBM425, Matt Dargis and wpn00b like this.
    10-13-2014 05:13 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    I understand that it's not impossible for a device to fail carrier testing, but in the case of the Icon how likely is it that an unforeseen technological issue is at the root of the non-release, rather than marketing or business drivers?
    IMO, it seems VERY unlikely.
    I think you two are assuming that the only way for an update to get held up, is if it fails carrier testing. That isn't necessarily true however. It can easily take a few weeks or even months for a carrier to get around to testing any particular device with a new OS version + firmware (they usually have somewhat of a backlog). That's quite some time that goes by, and during that time it's very likely that both MS and OEMs will find one or two new bugs of their own. When MS or the OEM finds such bugs, they usually are not considered show stoppers, but there are exceptions, like the recently discovered BitLocker bug. In this case it was MS that pulled the brakes, not the carriers. Carriers tend to search for bugs that could negatively affect their network infrastructure and support processes, so they test only a subset of all the things MS and OEMs do. However, in the rare instances where a carrier finds a bug, it's almost always a show stopper.

    I don't work for a U.S. carrier, so I have no idea what the issue may be with the Icon. I can only speculate. I think it's likely that Verizon completed Cyan testing, only to have MS cancel it due to the BitLocker bug. By the time MS offered a fix, Verizon was probably already being asked to schedule testing for Update 1 + Denim . I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon just decided to skip Cyan and go straight to Denim in the hope of saving themselves some work. But again, that's only my guess.
    SoapBox3000 likes this.
    10-13-2014 05:28 PM
  25. NancyAnnL's Avatar
    No, I was not assuming that the only way for an update to be delayed is for it to fail carrier testing- that was the point. I agreed with LITHOS that it was more likely due to marketing or business drivers. I would consider your proposed scenario to be one of many possible business drivers. I have no doubt that Verizon prioritizes its best interest first and foremost.
    Last edited by NancyAnnL; 10-13-2014 at 06:15 PM.
    10-13-2014 05:58 PM
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