10-12-2014 08:58 PM
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  1. zweible's Avatar
    Its a business decision. Theirs alone to make. BUT.. as an Icon owner I feel as if we deserve some answers (other WP phone owners also)..

    Cyan? yes or no?
    8.1? yes or no?
    Denim? yes or no?

    and will you support and upgrade our fairly new phones for a reasonable amount of time? These are not hard questions. I have a lot invested in my 1st Windows Phone. To have the plug pulled so soon after purchase with no answers from Verizon on ANYTHING related to it really leaves a poor impression on Verizon as a company to me. Verizon needs to remember that a bad impression on a company is repeated to 10 times more people than a good one. (numbers totally made up but probably pretty accurate).
    wpn00b and MikeSo like this.
    10-10-2014 09:33 PM
  2. several potatos's Avatar
    Considering they so rarely support Windows Phone, I doubt they'll make good on this either.
    Christina David likes this.
    10-10-2014 09:36 PM
  3. aaron j's Avatar
    Your making fair comments..

    Slightly unrelated but I think one of windows biggest mistakes is making updates carrier based not windows store based..

    It shouldn't be up to the careless carriers. If they controlled the updated it could all be done globally like apple does. Plus then Microsoft could pay journalists to ramp up the latest updates and the day of them, just like apple which in turn means advertising! That word Microsoft hasn't heard of..

    Which would mean carriers want them so no dumps from the likes of your carrier.

    Sorry to sidetrack but its a valid point. MS should support its phones not expect a third party to do it if they feel like it..
    zweible and James8561 like this.
    10-10-2014 09:41 PM
  4. Darthbobcat's Avatar
    I thought that I had heard that the carriers DID release IOS's updates, but they just rubber stamped it and gave it fast track behavior.

    What's really sad here is that just last year, I would have called Verizon one of the better companies for Windows Phone. They had the original Affordable Flagship (Lumia 822) which I and members of my family enjoyed, they had the 928, which was better than the 920 in all ways except color options, and they plunked down the money for Icon exclusivity. Sure, they were missing the Lumia 1020 and 1520, and they had no 5XX or 6XX line, but Verizon isn't about budget phones, and their solid lineup of regular Windows Phones excused their lack of specialists. Heck, they even left the wireless charging alone.

    But this just has me tilting my head. AT&T has definitely reaffirmed their position as the best place for WP in the US, even with the Qi vs Powermat silliness.\.
    10-10-2014 09:56 PM
  5. aaron j's Avatar
    Ok fair comment, I could be wrong as after 1 year of an i phone 4 I grew to dislike apple so not much detailed information.. But I was always informed that apple updates was I tunes based. That's how they have global update dates not like wp says between 2014-2047 you will get cyan haha.
    ali80 likes this.
    10-10-2014 10:10 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Ok fair comment, I could be wrong as after 1 year of an i phone 4 I grew to dislike apple so not much detailed information.. But I was always informed that apple updates was I tunes based. That's how they have global update dates not like wp says between 2014-2047 you will get cyan haha.

    You are completely off here.

    All WP updates are delivered directly from MS or optionally from OEM servers. That is no different from Apple. Technically, at least as far as distribution is concerned, all WP devices could be updated on the same day.

    The carriers don't do anything, except test and give the OEM permission to flip the WP update switch.

    The difference is that if a carrier wants to sell iPhones, they must agree to Apple's terms and conditions, which requires that carriers surrender most of their power over updates to Apple. Apple decides when a update will be distributed, and although they do provide all carriers time to test, Apple isn't legally required to consider any carrier's feedback.

    If MS asked for the same rights, they'd be laughed out of the meeting room.
    10-10-2014 10:31 PM
  7. aaron j's Avatar
    Ok cool, I openly said could be wrong..

    Although how are people still waiting months later for updates if they are available from MS direct?
    And why don't they just bypass the useless carriers who leave customers hanging?

    Not arguing I'm genuinely happy to learn and be corrected.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    10-10-2014 11:13 PM
  8. pankaj981's Avatar
    Well technically the carriers own the devices when initially bought from manufacturers so it's really up to their discretion whether to release an update or not to. The channel may still be provided by MS but the marching orders to push the updates is still done by the carriers.
    a5cent likes this.
    10-10-2014 11:35 PM
  9. aikidaves's Avatar
    WP isn't sold using the same model as iOS is. The following discussion applies mainly to the North American markets; the rest of the world tends to be different.

    Apple makes iPhones and the software for them, so Apple is the sole provider of the OS, the firmware, and the hardware. Apple also has clout with the carriers, since no carrier is going to haggle over Apple's distribution Terms and Conditions - any haggling will be about how much money per device the carrier gets. As single source OEM of a very desirable and profitable product line, Apple is in the driver's seat.

    Microsoft's OS group makes WP, and 'sells' it (gratis, now) to OEMs. Yes, the largest WP OEM now belongs to Microsoft, but that is a different division. It still has to be treated legally as an OEM to avoid contract and perception problems with other OEMs and to avoid potential antitrust issues with various governments (US, EU, etc.).

    The OEMs, in turn, provide the OS, firmware, and hardware to the carriers. With WP OEMs, as with most Android OEMs (the main exception being Samsung), it's the carriers that have the clout, not the OEMs. The carriers want to keep their support costs low on non-Apple, non-Samsung phones, so they insist on approving OS and firmware releases on the phones they sell. Remember, most phone users in North America don't contact the manufacturer or the software developer when they have a problem, nor do they cast about on the internet except as a last resort - they take the phone back where they got it, which is more often than not, their carrier.

    Microsoft the OS maker has come up with a way to bypass the carriers - the DP program. They can do this because they don't sell the OS to the carriers, and the OEMs are willing to allow it. Of course, the carriers and OEMs can choose to void the warranties on any phones running it, although so far, none of them has. The OEMs, however, can't bypass the carriers as easily, since they're the ones that actually have contracts with the carriers. Also, firmware is much more likely to affect basic functions like making calls and sending SMS texts, things that people are likely to blame on the carrier if they don't work, so the carriers are a lot less likely to look kindly on the OEMs trying to bypass their testing.

    Bottom line: Until a WP OEM has the kind of clout with the carriers that Apple and Samsung currently have, or until North Americans shift more to the world model of buying unlocked phones from vendors other than their carriers, the situation is unlikely to change dramatically.
    a5cent and Marc Bickford like this.
    10-10-2014 11:46 PM
  10. aaron j's Avatar
    Good info thanks mate. So basically to make a more correct version of my original saying I believe MS should have preview for developers built in and set as default.

    The current set up really gives the impression (a true one) that carriers give zero craps about wp. Something that's stunts sales and therefore stops carriers from ever caring.

    Side note does usa really still have strict carrier locked phones still?? That's rough.. Haven't had that experience in aus for a few years..
    10-10-2014 11:59 PM
  11. aikidaves's Avatar
    Side note does usa really still have strict carrier locked phones still??
    Yes. Even third-party vendors such as Wal-Mart sell locked phones. Worse, since Verizon and Sprint use CDMA, their hardware is physically different, so finding unlocked phones to use on their networks isn't easy. AT&T and T-Mobile at least match the rest of the world by using GSM so finding unlocked phones for them isn't hard, but most Americans just go to their carrier, since 'that's what everyone does'.
    10-11-2014 12:14 AM
  12. Darthbobcat's Avatar
    There's also a matter of cost. If one goes to the US Microsoft Store, a Nokia Lumia 635 locked to AT&T costs half as much as the unlocked version. People are used to subsidized two year contracts, but at the low end, the carriers do some subsidizing of the hardware at non-contract price on the theory that it gets people onto their networks, even if it's a cheaper "pay as you go" contract.

    (This is, IMO, why T-Mobile tends to charge more for the same cheapo Windows Phone; AT&T has deeper pockets and can thus afford to take a bigger loss up front).

    So if I'm a US consumer, I have to ask myself, "How important is it to me to be able to quickly move to another carrier?" In my case, I'm currently on AT&T. The main network that would be a viable option in the states if I had an unlocked phone would be T-Mobile, which I have no interest in using, as their service is bad in my area. (If I were on Verizon, my phone would already technically be "unlocked," though it'd be limited to 3G speed on a GSM network). I also don't go out of the country very often, and if I were overseas for a truly lengthy period of time, I'd probably just buy a cheap unlocked windows phone (like the Blu Win Jr) at the time, rather than making a big deal about my higher end phone being unlocked. Because of this, I can mention that from prior experience selling cell phones in the US, it was mainly international customers, or people unhappy with carrier exclusives, who insisted on unlocked phones if they could be had.
    a5cent, aikidaves and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-11-2014 12:35 AM
  13. aaron j's Avatar
    Why not buy a phone from ebay au or similar? I just travelled all through Europe with my au 925 and bought random data Sims and just used viber or similar for everything.. No worries and no lock ins!
    10-11-2014 01:09 AM
  14. Darthbobcat's Avatar
    It honestly just seems more complicated than living with being locked, for the reasons listed above. Plus, if something goes wrong, I'm not trying to untangle the web of who I take it to; I know I can go to the carrier.
    10-11-2014 02:19 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Good info thanks mate. So basically to make a more correct version of my original saying I believe MS should have preview for developers built in and set as default.
    I completely agree with your analysis of what the problem is and how it technically could be solved. It's just that carriers don't want that to be solved. From their point of view, the dev preview serves the purpose of shutting up their most vocal (where is my update) complainers, without sacrificing their ability to control what MS can deploy on their infrastructure.

    The dev preview achieves this while simultaneously reducing the carrier's risk if anything should go wrong, as carriers gain the ability to void your warranty, should anything dev preview related start costing them money.

    That dev preview model works only if few actually use it. It's not suitable for mass market adoption. For one because of the potential warranty issues, and secondly because U.S. carriers would kill it if it ever became too popular.

    These are deliberate legal restrictions. It's about carriers not wanting to be just dumb pipes. It's not a technical issue at all.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-11-2014 at 08:43 AM. Reason: formatting
    10-11-2014 04:42 AM
  16. aaron j's Avatar
    Appreciate the point if view..

    So once again ms is being ***** slapped by those who have already been bought off and payed for by apple and samsung, which in effect continues the choke hold they have..

    Ms needs to grease some palms;)
    10-11-2014 07:16 AM
  17. Jazmac's Avatar
    Is this still some rumor or did something change officially?
    10-12-2014 02:01 PM
  18. SpaceyO's Avatar
    Officially, still rumor...but 4 days of silence from official channels kinda tells the story.
    10-12-2014 02:41 PM
  19. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    The solution, which will never happen for various reasons, is for OEMs such as MS Nokia to make one version of a phone and release one firmware for it. This phone would have a global radio that would work on all carriers GSM or CDMA. It could still be locked to one carrier for subsidized purchase, but once unlocked it would truly be unrestricted.

    I wrote this up on uservoice but it needs a lot more than 20 votes before anyone at MS will notice. Please help there instead of just complaining here.
    10-12-2014 03:09 PM
  20. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    ...but most Americans just go to their carrier, since 'that's what everyone does'.
    Not really. Most Americans go the the carrier on contract because there is no price savings by buying on contract vs off contract. Example: Buying a phone for $199 on contract with $50/month plan, or buying the same phone out right for $500 and still having to pay $50/month for a plan. That's why Americans buy on contract.

    Back on topic, Verizon is the nations largest carrier but only accounts for 13-15% of WP users. So how many overall customers by percentage is that for Verizon? 1%? 2%? Verizon simply doesn't care. Switch to AT&T or TMobile (which accounts for 75% of WP users) and be happy.
    10-12-2014 03:55 PM
  21. Jazmac's Avatar
    Officially, still rumor...but 4 days of silence from official channels kinda tells the story.
    But its a rumor. Its rumored that Google plans a hostile takeover of Sprint. Still waiting on that official response on that one too.
    10-12-2014 06:58 PM
  22. vepac's Avatar
    If they dump the WP line I will not edge up, and keep my phone until the edge contract is up then go to 2 yr or sign up for edge again just so I can keep my Lumia Icon. Remember, that is if they do dump Windows phone.
    10-12-2014 07:30 PM
  23. stephen_az's Avatar
    Its a business decision. Theirs alone to make. BUT.. as an Icon owner I feel as if we deserve some answers (other WP phone owners also)..

    Cyan? yes or no?
    8.1? yes or no?
    Denim? yes or no?

    and will you support and upgrade our fairly new phones for a reasonable amount of time? These are not hard questions. I have a lot invested in my 1st Windows Phone. To have the plug pulled so soon after purchase with no answers from Verizon on ANYTHING related to it really leaves a poor impression on Verizon as a company to me. Verizon needs to remember that a bad impression on a company is repeated to 10 times more people than a good one. (numbers totally made up but probably pretty accurate).
    So why are you asking this here? Do you really think VZW is hanging out reading you? I have never quite grasped why people post things on a forum here asking VZW or anyone else for answers. Perhaps you might try actually asking them directly....
    iamtim likes this.
    10-12-2014 08:19 PM
  24. Aaron Yawn's Avatar
    Is this still some rumor or did something change officially?
    Not a rumor, verified by several Verizon support reps from tech support to sales support. Verizon has retired the ICON and will no.longer sell it. They have not released info on Cyan other than it is still.in testing. This info though was only found by Verizon reps from searching Nokia site on updates. You know the same one we all check! Amazingly horrible communications from this company. I wish the telecoms had less.power here in the U.S., but they dont😢 I left AT&T for striping Qi off their WPs and now Verizon is jacking it up too!
    10-12-2014 08:20 PM
  25. Aaron Yawn's Avatar
    Not really. Most Americans go the the carrier on contract because there is no price savings by buying on contract vs off contract. Example: Buying a phone for $199 on contract with $50/month plan, or buying the same phone out right for $500 and still having to pay $50/month for a plan. That's why Americans buy on contract.

    Back on topic, Verizon is the nations largest carrier but only accounts for 13-15% of WP users. So how many overall customers by percentage is that for Verizon? 1%? 2%? Verizon simply doesn't care. Switch to AT&T or TMobile (which accounts for 75% of WP users) and be happy.
    That is easier said than done, I was ATT customer for 13 years. I dealt with no reception for 7 years in my work pace due to the hifreq ranges ATT owns that wont penetrate walls well. The last straw was removing Qi charging from phones. I invested heavily when I purchased my 920. So I switched to Verizon, and now they are being anti consumer choice too. It's is pathetic and our Government political parties are both in their pockets in regards to the industry
    10-12-2014 08:25 PM
29 12

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