12-29-2014 09:53 PM
29 12
tools
  1. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    I have been sick over the poor quality of the camera flash on the Icon, after coming from the 928. Almost any shot with people seemed to be rendered useless due to horrible red eye. I am not sure why it took me so long to deal with it, but I finally did tonight. What did I do? I stuck 2 small pieced of mostly transparent tape over the flash. Why does this work? It diffuses the flash, something photographers have done with flash for ages. You could also try to use a piece of semi-translucent plastic, like from a milk jug or rubbing alcohol bottle.

    What you will find is that overall, the light is more even and that both glare and red eye are reduced here are before and after examples, with no editing. Of Crouse, this one without tape happened to NOT produce the usual red eye, you can still see the image improvement. This, of course, leads me to the questions, why don't the hardware manufacturers do this? It would be easy enough for them to include a small piece of semi-translucent plastic over the flash.

    No Tape:
    wp_20141225_18_41_38_raw.jpg

    After Tape Applied:
    wp_20141225_18_42_02_raw.jpg
    12-25-2014 06:00 PM
  2. gernerttl's Avatar
    For the same reason manufactures don't do the same thing for other cameras (point and shoots, DSLRs, etc.). It may diffuse the light, but it reduces overall flash strength. If I'm using a flash on my Canon EOS-6D and I need to diffuse the flash. I either bounce it off of a surface, or put a diffuser on it. In doing so, I have to compensate manually to ensure I get the proper exposure. Camera light metering systems don't take that into account.
    Shobin Drogan likes this.
    12-25-2014 06:45 PM
  3. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    For the same reason manufactures don't do the same thing for other cameras (point and shoots, DSLRs, etc.). It may diffuse the light, but it reduces overall flash strength. If I'm using a flash on my Canon EOS-6D and I need to diffuse the flash. I either bounce it off of a surface, or put a diffuser on it. In doing so, I have to compensate manually to ensure I get the proper exposure. Camera light metering systems don't take that into account.
    I understand your point, but the flash on the Icon is so horrible most people disable it, so why bother putting something that is unusable on the phone? The Xenon flash on the 928 was an entirely different story. The manufacturer could easily enough take a diffuser into account for their automatic settings.
    12-25-2014 07:05 PM
  4. arbyjr's Avatar
    Even with the tape in place, you will still end up with "red eye" from time to time. Diffusion the flash or not red eye is going to happen. The reason being the placement of the flash in relation to the lenses. When the flash is close to the lens the red eye reflection bounces right back, and on to the sensor. The only way to reduce or eliminate red eye in pictures is to move the flash farther away from the lenses/sensor so the light reflection off the inter part of the eye is more askew...
    gernerttl and Dreamspell like this.
    12-25-2014 07:38 PM
  5. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    Even with the tape in place, you will still end up with "red eye" from time to time. Diffusion the flash or not red eye is going to happen. The reason being the placement of the flash in relation to the lenses. When the flash is close to the lens the red eye reflection bounces right back, and on to the sensor. The only way to reduce or eliminate red eye in pictures is to move the flash farther away from the lenses/sensor so the light reflection off the inter part of the eye is more askew...
    Agreed, but it helps reduce it. At least mostly reduce the dreaded "demon eyes". I don't expect off camera flash is coming to a Lumia phone any time soon.
    12-25-2014 07:48 PM
  6. gernerttl's Avatar
    Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Not every photographic situation requires or wants a diffuser when using flash photography. Being a photographer myself, there are aesthetic purposes that I'd want to shoot bare bulb. For example adding shadows for a more dramatic look. By making a diffused flash the default for everybody, it limits options for everybody.

    Besides, your idea is simple and straight forward. Just add a piece of semi-transparent tape. You can also buy what are called photography gels (aka lighting gels) you can affix to the flash. You can also make some yourself. They can be used to changing lighting or contrast for aesthetic purposes as well as diffusing if you need it.
    12-25-2014 07:51 PM
  7. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Not every photographic situation requires or wants a diffuser when using flash photography. Being a photographer myself, there are aesthetic purposes that I'd want to shoot bare bulb. For example adding shadows for a more dramatic look. By making a diffused flash the default for everybody, it limits options for everybody.

    Besides, your idea is simple and straight forward. Just add a piece of semi-transparent tape. You can also buy what are called photography gels (aka lighting gels) you can affix to the flash. You can also make some yourself. They can be used to changing lighting or contrast for aesthetic purposes as well as diffusing if you need it.
    For the masses, a diffuser would be preferable. Most people are using it for people shots. Adding shadow for drama is great, but not if you get demon eyes, which you tend to get far too often with the Icon. As I said, with most people completely disabling it, a diffuser would be better than have to have dark faces in the majority of shots. As for the gels, you can actually get flash gel its for the iPhone. I am not interested in adding gels, just being able to take a better shot when I am not shooting with my 5D IIII/600 EX-RT.

    Truthfully, the real solution is to make Xenon the default for Pureview cameras. I will be interested if we get any relief with the flash from Denim. I am not expecting to see much different.
    .
    12-25-2014 08:01 PM
  8. Ruined's Avatar
    The McLaren leaks had only led despite big sensor so xenon in future looks less likely.
    12-25-2014 08:12 PM
  9. arbyjr's Avatar
    I'm no longer a full time working photographer. But I still play around when I can. A few years ago we were in a bad accident, we got hit by a truck. Well the truck actually drove right thru us. That was a few years ago and still I'm trying to stop saying us or we because other then my injuries like to my back, all ribs on my right side being broken, dislocated left hip, and also I also lost half of my left arm. But along with those I lost my wife of 23 years. But up until then we were both full time working photographers. I still play with my cameras and I still take as many as I can, but I'm not working as a photographer any longer.

    So to leave that subject behind, there are always times that no matter what your effects to prevent it you would find some images with red eye. So your other tool, and actually in my opinion the best tool to eliminate red eyes is PhotoShop!!!
    gernerttl likes this.
    12-25-2014 08:27 PM
  10. onlysublime's Avatar
    if the only problem is red eye, there are plenty of photo apps and software that know how to correct the red eye.
    12-25-2014 11:31 PM
  11. Ruined's Avatar
    Red eye can be eliminated if there is a flash sequence before the picture is taken. But that does slow down taking pics.
    12-26-2014 05:01 AM
  12. realwarder's Avatar
    Denim, whenever it arrives should help because the new hdr style shot should reduce the flash impact.
    12-26-2014 06:12 AM
  13. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    Yeah, they do an ok job if it's only red eye but can't help demon eyes.
    12-26-2014 12:00 PM
  14. arbyjr's Avatar
    Yeah, they do an ok job if it's only red eye but can't help demon eyes.
    PhotoShop can fix anything!!!
    12-26-2014 12:22 PM
  15. gernerttl's Avatar
    The cause of red eye is simply the light reflecting back from the back of the eye. Red eye reduction pre-flash causes the pupils to contract which reduces the amount of light reflecting back.

    There are two ways to eliminate red eye (and even "demon eye") at image capture. Either shoot without a flash or use an off camera flash. Both of which have disadvantages.

    With today's smart phones and point and shoot cameras (and even prosumer DSLRs) the built in flash is on the same plane as the sensor and therefor will cause red eye in certain (but not all) situations. Diffusing the flash will reduce the likelihood of red eye, but it won't eliminate it entirely.

    Photoshop does a great job, but not everybody can afford the price.
    12-26-2014 12:34 PM
  16. arbyjr's Avatar
    ...
    Photoshop does a great job, but not everybody can afford the price.
    Right, I know that PhotoShop is pricy, but there are alot of low cost alternatives, and just about any photo program have an option for red eye removal, I only brought up PhotoShop, because 1) I'm a certified PhotoShop professional, and I can and do teach people how to work with that. The learning curve is very high, just as the price is, but it's well worth the effort. And B) I'm still under contract with them so I try to getting others to use PhotoShop instead of the others...

    But too your explanation of "red eye", is more so what I was trying to explain before. I've said in another topic that I have a problem with word vomit, but could I hire you to edit my posts and make them legible
    12-26-2014 01:46 PM
  17. Kasey Pierce's Avatar
    I pay 9.99 a month for light-room. I don't think that's pricey at all. Considering i have a phone that puts out some incredible RAW photos, id say you get the best of the best for not a lot of dough.
    12-26-2014 08:38 PM
  18. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    I think that "altered" is a more accurate word than improved in this situation.
    BatteryLife likes this.
    12-27-2014 12:16 AM
  19. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    Well, my point is, that the flash on the Icon totally stinks. I did not have the same issue with the 928. I want to be able to shoot and edit on camera on the go, not have to transfer to PS or LR to correct. I understand why red eye happens. If you don't find my original suggestion helpful, that's fine just move on instead if trying to impress us all with your knowledge (or arrogance.)
    12-29-2014 03:57 PM
  20. arbyjr's Avatar
    Hey I'm sorry for replying to your post, and all I was trying to point out was that even with the tape in place you will end up still with red eye from time to time. Even in your example images you did not display a before image with red eye, or your "demon eyes". Actually your example only showed a reduction in flash output. You already know that the flash is not as powerful as the xenon flash of the 928, and with the tape in place you are only reducing the output from the flash.

    Your original title was how you "improved" the flash, and you mentioned your reason was because of horrible red eye. However your example did not show this "improvement". Your original rant was too about the underpowered flash output of the Icon, but your improvement again does not address this problem, it only exacerbates that problem.
    I was only trying to address the issue you brought forth. And I only brought up PhotoShop, and editing images off camera, because just about any on phone program should be more then enough. But if you end up with any image that's too much of a problem going off phone would be what you need.

    You want to edit on the go, and just about any on phone editing program should be able to take your under lighted images and be able to brighten them up. Not because of the taped up flash, but addressing the difference of the non Xenon flash. The red eye problems, YOU should be able to fix that problem, seeing you "understand why red eye happens".

    Again I'm sorry for replying to your post...
    12-29-2014 07:21 PM
  21. arbyjr's Avatar
    Does anyone know if these will work with Windows phone also? If so then the is your more powerful flash, and also very close to an of camera flash unit. But in any case it could move the flash off of the plane as the image sensor...iblazr ? The First LED Flash For iPhone, iPad, Android Smartphones and Tablets (can be used as a flashlight).

    Or also what about optical triggered flash units. Those giving you true off camera flash for your smartphone's...
    12-29-2014 07:42 PM
  22. carlson03's Avatar
    FYI, Gimp is a great photo editing tool, easy to learn and free!
    12-29-2014 07:49 PM
  23. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    Hey I'm sorry for replying to your post, and all I was trying to point out was that even with the tape in place you will end up still with red eye from time to time. Even in your example images you did not display a before image with red eye, or your "demon eyes". Actually your example only showed a reduction in flash output. You already know that the flash is not as powerful as the xenon flash of the 928, and with the tape in place you are only reducing the output from the flash.

    Your original title was how you "improved" the flash, and you mentioned your reason was because of horrible red eye. However your example did not show this "improvement". Your original rant was too about the underpowered flash output of the Icon, but your improvement again does not address this problem, it only exacerbates that problem.
    I was only trying to address the issue you brought forth. And I only brought up PhotoShop, and editing images off camera, because just about any on phone program should be more then enough. But if you end up with any image that's too much of a problem going off phone would be what you need.

    You want to edit on the go, and just about any on phone editing program should be able to take your under lighted images and be able to brighten them up. Not because of the taped up flash, but addressing the difference of the non Xenon flash. The red eye problems, YOU should be able to fix that problem, seeing you "understand why red eye happens".

    Again I'm sorry for replying to your post...
    The examples I had on phone with red eyes were all of kids - which I try to avoid posting in online forums for obvious reasons. Will diffusing the flash 100% prevent red eye. Will it reduce it? Yup.

    Like I said, for non-photographers, this can be a cheap, easy improvement. Photoshop won't fix demon eyes, nothing will. Red eyes, can, to a degree be fixed but I would rather have a little diffused flash, than try to fix demon eyes or red eyes. If you are too high and mighty to benefit from it, move on.
    12-29-2014 08:22 PM
  24. arbyjr's Avatar
    It has nothing to do with being high and mighty, it has to do with experience mostly. Diffused light (from putting tape on your phone) is not going to fix all instances, or all situations that may cause red eye. You're reducing your flashes output, which you are also complaining about. I also just gave you a suggestion for the iblazr, for a more powerful flash, plus offered you the suggestion of looking into the optical triggered flash. I really don't see your reason for thinking I'm talking down to anyone. I'm not making fun of your tape idea, it's just you are contradiction yourself with this idea. And up until you singled me out i did not say anything about.
    12-29-2014 08:58 PM
  25. arbyjr's Avatar
    For anyone else whom are actually interested the iblazr does work with windows phone (as stated on their website).
    12-29-2014 09:02 PM
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