Shooting incident between Philipping and Taiwan

[Nataku4ca]

This is off topic to the Nth degree, but I seriously feel the need to post this, I'm in Taiwan on vacation for the past week and this thing is getting rediculous

First thing I want to clarify is that there had been no discrimination against philippino "people" from where I am and there are alot of them
Second the fishing boat was shot more than 46 times and the fish boat is unarmed, I can't see how this is even remotely legal (no ram marks either from what they are claiming)
Third most important thing, the people in Taiwan are angry at philippino gov't for lying and beening insincere, and not against philippino people
other parts that prompted me to post this is that
1 - according to the gps on board the boat is within Taiwanese waters
2 - alot of media from other countries are releasing false information about this incident that claiming Taiwan ignored philippine's apology is wrong, there had been no official appology and they send low level officials regarding this incident that has shown no remorse regarding this incident and even calling it an accident (46 shot accident? really?)
3 - reporters from US asked some very good questions such as "when US get into this type if event we would ask the same, why is it not ok when Taiwan does it", this is coming from an American reporter, just saying that it seems some top officials are bullying Taiwan and this is sickening

Please if you hear people attacking Taiwan over this, please, tell them what the truth is, we are being bullied and this saddens me very much

 

[Reflexx]

How do you know what you're hearing is the truth?

Especially when many/most news outlets report otherwise?

I don't know what caused the incident. But I do know that the Taiwanese fishing boats are big and aggressive in those waters. Threatening a Philippine vessel isn't unheard of.

But because of this reputation, it's also very possible that the people on the Philippine vessel over reacted or perceived something as a big threat when it was just small posturing. Their perceptions may be tainted by the constant feeling of conflict there.

Whatever did happen, it was an action that took place between the people of these two boats, not the governments. It's not like either government ordered these boats to cause unwanted conflict.

The Philippine President did apologize. Twice within 24 hrs.

Right now, Taiwan's leader is trying to win political points. Any tragedy can be manipulated into an opportunity. And that's what is happening here according to most news outlets.

What I want to know is, why should I believe a news outlet in Taiwan over one that isnt?

 

[Nataku4ca]

How do you know what you're hearing is the truth?

Especially when many/most news outlets report otherwise?

I don't know what caused the incident. But I do know that the Taiwanese fishing boats are big and aggressive in those waters. Threatening a Philippine vessel isn't unheard of.

But because of this reputation, it's also very possible that the people on the Philippine vessel over reacted or perceived something as a big threat when it was just small posturing. Their perceptions may be tainted by the constant feeling of conflict there.

Whatever did happen, it was an action that took place between the people of these two boats, not the governments. It's not like either government ordered these boats to cause unwanted conflict.

The Philippine President did apologize. Twice within 24 hrs.

Right now, Taiwan's leader is trying to win political points. Any tragedy can be manipulated into an opportunity. And that's what is happening here according to most news outlets.

What I want to know is, why should I believe a news outlet in Taiwan over one that isnt?

Well, let me put it this way, pictures and letters can be considered as facts right?
what is there
- pictures of bullet holes have been taken by bystanders and official images of the many affective shots
- no ram marks or even a dent on the fishing boat
- pictures and videos of official request and invitation for investigation group (I only bring this up as some ppl are saying they haven't been invited)
- dead body x1

what is not there
- video clip that recorded the incident on the philippino vessel, unfortunately most fishing boats don't bother buying those

the next issue that you describe as being purely between the two vessel is also incorrect as the attacking vessel is a military ship or better put, gov't ship, a gov't ship firing on civilian ship against the rules of engagement escalates this issue to gov't level, think of it this way, if cop from another country came to your house and fires at your door for fun, it WILL be escalated to gov't level, civilian have no power when it come to issues like these

next thing, apology, there are pictures and videos to prove this as well, the first one was not official and non-public, the second one they sent someone without authority on behalf of the gov't then only after Taiwan displayed anger that they gave the guy authority, even then, their apology was "it was and accident, sorry *shrugs*" all the while smiling with no regrets

look, most of us were happy initially when we saw news saying they have apologized, but when we watched the video it became clear they don't care, 7 years ago it was the same, another vessel was gunned down, our gov't (for any country for that matter) has the responsibility to protect their fisherman, of the several effective shots there are probably many more that have missed (kind of doubt these guys can hit a target 100% of the time), how is that an accident when they fire that many shots? these guys are not untrained

last thing before I go (still have a few places to go), fisherman - 14.7m 15.15ton, philly ship 30m 115.45ton
like, feel threatened?
official procedure from international sea rule (and as far as know the protocol for philly ships)
- warn
- inspect
- capture
- only fire when fired upon
(need to double check the exact phrase and order when I get back home)

I generally investigate things before believing the media, look, there are even several US reporters asking the same questions we do when the US official came out on this matter, pretty sure the videos are on youtube but my connection is too slow for me to go and find them then post them, I will do so once I get back to Canada

thanks for reading, but do understand that im not just spewing things with out checking out facts neutrally speaking, this thing is becoming international bullying

ps: almost forgot about the political points part, he (I hate him as a president, actually most people do now), did nothing until the uproar of the people and the Chinese gov't set out official statement against the philippino gov't, he is not getting any points over this, at most he is finally acting like a president he should have been in the first place

 

[Reflexx]

What do you want to happen?

I don't believe either side.

But I also dont believe that any government agency, including a military boat, has anything to gain with this incident.

The ships in those waters have a history of being aggressive. And Philippine military, especially the seamen in those waters, are not known for being very well trained. It's a third world country.

What resolution are you hoping for? You just want people to be angry at the Philippine government? That doesn't sound like it really solves it helps anything.

 

[Nataku4ca]

What do you want to happen?

I don't believe either side.

But I also dont believe that any government agency, including a military boat, has anything to gain with this incident.

The ships in those waters have a history of being aggressive. And Philippine military, especially the seamen in those waters, are not known for being very well trained. It's a third world country.

What resolution are you hoping for? You just want people to be angry at the Philippine government? That doesn't sound like it really solves it helps anything.

what do I want to have happen? very simple request, stop demonizing Taiwanese people. I don't see how hard that is, these people have done nothing wrong yet they are taking all the flak. if I can wish for one more thing (now I sound like a little girl asking for wishes...) an apology that is sincere and not this it's not our fault crap they are currently pulling would be nice too

now hostile water or not, procedure has not been followed and trigger happy should not be accepted as ok, what that suggests is that as long as you're in that zone, it's ok to go free for all

don't know what these people have to gain from this, but if I was to go into conspiracy mode i'd say these guys are pulling some sort of illegal deal in that water such as drug deal/transferring firearms to Iran/North Korea, things that would **** off a lot of ppl, so they fired with intent to kill just in case the fishermans saw anything


again like my opening post says, I just want people to understand that Taiwanese people are being demonized for things that they should not be faulted for, I just want people to help clear that up, there are philipino people calling to have people to stop buying Taiwanese products, heck even suggest attacking Taiwanese people, don't tell me I should not be worried, internet power has been going over the edge a lot, and if we the people that knows better can't stand out and put reason in these murky times, I fear for a even more chaotic world ahead

 

[Reflexx]

They'd demonizing the Taiwanese people?

As far as I've seen, it's been mainly about leadership and the boats. There has always been problems with how the people perceive the fishermen. So this incident doesn't make that any better.

But I don't think people are demonizing regular Taiwanese people. But they are peeved at the government for not accepting a very quick apology. And calling it insincere is another insult, so that's not going to win fans.

Like all Asian countries, there is a lot of prude and face involved. Most of the time, leaders are much too proud to apologize for anything. Period.

Now, here's a leader that apologizes twice in 24 hours and it's not good enough. Sorry. But asking him to get on his hands and knees and beg for forgiveness when nobody really knows what happened is insulting.

You can speculate all you want about what might have happened. But the fact is that you don't know what happened. You don't know who is more in the wrong. You don't know if it was malicious or just a misunderstanding that went horribly wrong.

The apology was as sincere as it could be without admitting any wrong doing. Because to admit wrong doing when you don't know what happened would be dumb.

 

[Nataku4ca]

They'd demonizing the Taiwanese people?

As far as I've seen, it's been mainly about leadership and the boats. There has always been problems with how the people perceive the fishermen. So this incident doesn't make that any better.

But I don't think people are demonizing regular Taiwanese people. But they are peeved at the government for not accepting a very quick apology. And calling it insincere is another insult, so that's not going to win fans.

Like all Asian countries, there is a lot of prude and face involved. Most of the time, leaders are much too proud to apologize for anything. Period.

Now, here's a leader that apologizes twice in 24 hours and it's not good enough. Sorry. But asking him to get on his hands and knees and beg for forgiveness when nobody really knows what happened is insulting.

You can speculate all you want about what might have happened. But the fact is that you don't know what happened. You don't know who is more in the wrong. You don't know if it was malicious or just a misunderstanding that went horribly wrong.

The apology was as sincere as it could be without admitting any wrong doing. Because to admit wrong doing when you don't know what happened would be dumb.

look, im trying to respect you as a fellow wpcentral fan, but ur just pushing and pushing, read how some of the media are presenting Taiwan and the comments of the people that posted

and fact is the president has not apologized, so u've been given the wrong information if you think it was the president that did, heck I can even bring up the video clip that says he won't apologize, if it's investigation you need then hey go on ahead and do it, but so far they've been leaving our guys in the dark and have not been willing to cooperate in this matter, that is not solving any thing

also like I said, that was if I go into conspiracy mode, I don't understand what you are so worked up about if you don't believe either side, u have been extremely hostile to Taiwan up until now even as I try to communicate with you in a civil manner, got relatives on that gov't boat or something? Have U ever tried to even remotely to look at this from Taiwan's side?

Consider this
Philippines Says Visit To Fisherman's Family Is NOT An Apology & Money Given is NOT Compensation! - YouTube

I know U don't trust any news source, but this may give U some insight as to why the apology has been deemed insincere
I won't try to talk u into understanding our side anymore since u've already set ur mind, I just really hoped u actually tried

 

[Reflexx]

Just because I don't buy your side of the story doesn't mean I'm hostile towards Taiwan.

I think you're reading way too much I to my comments if you believe that to be true.

I'm not going to jump to conclusions like you are doing. Doing so doesn't help anyone.