08-10-2013 11:22 AM
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  1. Sanjay Chandra's Avatar
    Ahh I see ok - so we still have a single book but yet you also have digital downloads, cinemas, blu rays - all things giving you the same thing over and over that you have to pay for over and over - perfect example of Apple self cannibalism with devices and profiteering - thanks for pointing that out Sanjay.
    That's how world works , A movie is better than a book because its more lively and appealing to people. You can argue 100 things about books but you can't change the world.You have to live with the fact how world lives or bring something revolutionary.

    You can sell a digital download of a movie for 3 times price compared to a book's price but still movie its going to sell and bring more revenue (even though the movie is based on that very book).
    The same movie may already been watched by people but on digital content/DVD you can get extra stuff which is not available in theatres just like special edition of books.

    If there's a world where there are no laptops or ultrabooks , Devices like Surface pro succeeds but that's not the world we live.

    Or its has to be sold less than iPad's price to compete which is senseless.
    08-08-2013 12:10 PM
  2. martinmc78's Avatar
    That's how world works , A movie is better than a book because its more lively and appealing to people. You can argue 100 things about books but you can't change the world.You have to live with the fact how world lives or bring something revolutionary.

    You can sell a digital download of a movie for 3 times price compared to a book's price but still movie its going to sell and bring more revenue (even though the movie is based on that very book).
    The same movie may already been watched by people but on digital content/DVD you can get extra stuff which is not available in theatres just like special edition of books.

    If there's a world where there are no laptops or ultrabooks , Devices like Surface pro succeeds but that's not the world we live.

    Or its has to be sold less than iPad's price to compete which is senseless.
    A movie appeals to more people because it only lasts a few hours and doesn't require any intelligence to view.

    You want to talk revolutionary? Look at how many books started revolutions. How many films in the history of man have done the same.

    In a world where people didn't believe the hype and made their own choices instead of following the herd then Apples products wouldn't stand a chance.
    08-08-2013 12:20 PM
  3. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    That's how world works , A movie is better than a book because its more lively and appealing to people. You can argue 100 things about books but you can't change the world.You have to live with the fact how world lives or bring something revolutionary.

    You can sell a digital download of a movie for 3 times price compared to a book's price but still movie its going to sell and bring more revenue (even though the movie is based on that very book).
    The same movie may already been watched by people but on digital content/DVD you can get extra stuff which is not available in theatres just like special edition of books.

    If there's a world where there are no laptops or ultrabooks , Devices like Surface pro succeeds but that's not the world we live.

    Or its has to be sold less than iPad's price to compete which is senseless.
    If movies are so much better than books, why do students have to read books in their school English and literature classes?
    08-08-2013 12:25 PM
  4. CSJr1's Avatar
    C C C C C Combo Breaker!!!
    I am going to break the string of bash Sanjay:)

    But it is uncanny the level of glorification I see. Sometimes, I wonder if I just haven't been properly indoctrinated yet:)
    08-08-2013 12:34 PM
  5. martinmc78's Avatar
    Bottom line is Apple are on there 4th or 5th generation of ipads and 7th to 8th on phones. Both have got thinner, lighter, more powerful, more expensive while still running the same gazillion apps and providing the same experience and they've milked everyone.
    Using your film analogy if ive got to compare Apple to a movie its got to be Police Academy. So many versions and they got progressively more boring. Yeah they are fun for a few minutes then you realise its the same old stuff

    Surface comes along and brings more new stuff to the table in its first iteration than apple have managed to milk you for in buying the latest and greatest for the same experience the last 4 years.

    I mean Apple have had how many attempts at a tablet and they still cant split screen multitask?? How many attempts and there's still no integrated kickstand?? You going to tell me there isn't an app for that???
    08-08-2013 12:40 PM
  6. Blkacesvf41's Avatar
    Can you tell me what exactly Apple copied in iOS 7 apart from "call receiving screen" ?
    multitasker is right out of the WP8 handbook. If I remember correctly the notification center is just like Android's.
    08-08-2013 12:55 PM
  7. WPhoney's Avatar
    I have a third generation iPad and i like it, but it feels like a nicely wraped experience that tries to hypnotize people with slick and pleasing UI, at the same time being stubborn not to offer really new and groundbreaking things (dividing screen on W8).
    There's a lot of blame to go around:

    • The press writes biased articles which are meant to generate "ad-clicks".
    • The readers check out the articles and swallow every word without exercising any critical thinking.
    • Wall Street pumps the products to high heaven, in order to increase the company's stock price.
    • Consumers buy the products, despite the exorbitant price and lack of keyboard, Ethernet, HDMI, USB, microSD and Flash!
    • People -- like yourself -- go online to write posts damning the product that they've admitted to own.




    iPad is something like that.It doesn't offer everything (like the book) but It offers exactly what people want (like a movie).
    I have a different analogy:

    A guy builds a "vehicle" for $50. He manages to keep his production costs down by removing "non-essential" components from the vehicle such as: doors, windshield, passenger seats, trunk and air-conditioning. He touts his vehicle as the thinnest and most innovative ever made! He calls his vehicle a "car" and prices it at $1,000, claiming it's an absolute bargain! His marketing department convinces people that this so-called "car" is gonna make everyone look hip and cool. Result? Huge profits!


    bicycle.jpg
    08-08-2013 01:17 PM
  8. ag1986's Avatar
    Bottom line is Apple are on there 4th or 5th generation of ipads and 7th to 8th on phones. Both have got thinner, lighter, more powerful, more expensive while still running the same gazillion apps and providing the same experience and they've milked everyone.
    Using your film analogy if ive got to compare Apple to a movie its got to be Police Academy. So many versions and they got progressively more boring. Yeah they are fun for a few minutes then you realise its the same old stuff

    Surface comes along and brings more new stuff to the table in its first iteration than apple have managed to milk you for in buying the latest and greatest for the same experience the last 4 years.

    I mean Apple have had how many attempts at a tablet and they still cant split screen multitask?? How many attempts and there's still no integrated kickstand?? You going to tell me there isn't an app for that???
    Here's the deal:

    People are stupid (statistically speaking, with a sample size of anything > 1M)

    People don't like change.

    People like simple things.

    People don't like complex things.

    People buy devices that do things they WANT to do.

    Put all that together and you have a world wherein a less-capable yet simpler device like the iPad murders the Surface in terms of sales and profits.

    So yeah, the Surface can do Ethernet, HDMI, SD, keyboard, x86 apps, etc etc etc. The truth is, nobody gives a flying ****. People want to browse the web, do email, watch video and maybe use a few apps on their tablets. iPads do what people want. MS screwed the pooch by releasing a far more capable tablet for ~2x the price that nobody (statistically speaking) wanted.

    In conclusion, people are the problem. If MS wants the Surface line to succeed, they must immediately invest huge amounts of money in education, thus ensuring that the next few generations will be composed of rational, logical & analytical thinkers who will look at function over form, and thus buy MS products. OR they might realise that in reality, all they need can be done by an iPad, and they don't really need an x64 PC masquerading as a tablet. That's just a risk SteveB will have to take.
    08-08-2013 02:13 PM
  9. ag1986's Avatar
    Also, the real bottom line is that Apple has sold what I believe are a bazillion iPads, next to which the Surface sales are a rounding error. I am not disputing which device is objectively better; but the sales figures cannot be ignored.
    FinancialP likes this.
    08-08-2013 02:19 PM
  10. sinime's Avatar
    I'm still curious how well apple will be doing a couple of years from now... they seem to be starting on a downward spiral... and they can't bring Jobs back to fix it this time.
    08-08-2013 03:52 PM
  11. WPhoney's Avatar
    they seem to be starting on a downward spiral... and they can't bring Jobs back to fix it this time.
    Brand fatigue. No fad lasts forever.
    mrdeeds_72 likes this.
    08-08-2013 08:33 PM
  12. Sanjay Chandra's Avatar
    If movies are so much better than books, why do students have to read books in their school English and literature classes?
    If you look at schools , they are now starting to use interactive forms of things like iPads , Presentations etc all forms of digital equipment because they know that having visual experience will spark interest and keep them engaging.

    They found that using iPads/Interactive forms have improved students results by 20%

    Books are always for reference purpose.

    If books are everything , then why are teachers coming and teaching to the students ? because answer is simple.

    A book doesn't appeal as much as audio experience or video experience.

    If someone is looking for a high end job , any company prefers to have a person with practical knowledge and industrial experience rather than a person who has bookish knowledge.

    That must tell you , how much importance books have.They are only meant for reference in case a person forgets something or want to re-look etc.

    Speaking of literature , You can read as much literature as possible and read 100's of vocabulary books.

    but none of them beat practical experience i.e coming in front of many people and speaking easily and engaging audience.

    Can a student who is good at reading can be a great speaker ? Answer is no because communication skills require much more than reading skills/literature knowledge.

    Literature is just for knowing the usage of language i.e reference.
    Last edited by Sanjay Chandra; 08-08-2013 at 10:37 PM.
    08-08-2013 10:16 PM
  13. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    If you look at schools , they are now starting to use interactive forms of things like iPads , Presentations etc all forms of digital equipment because they know that having visual experience will spark interest and keep them engaging.

    Books are always for reference purpose.

    If books are everything , then why are teachers coming and teaching to the students ? because answer is simple.

    A book doesn't appeal as much as audio experience or video experience.
    Much of the interactive experiences are the detriment of modern education. Kids want to be constantly engaged and cannot sit still and read like they did in previous generations, since their attention spans are lacking due to the constant visual stimulation they've received since infancy.
    08-08-2013 10:32 PM
  14. WPhoney's Avatar
    You want to talk revolutionary? Look at how many books started revolutions. How many films in the history of man have done the same.
    Smartest thing I've read on WPCentral so far. Thumbs up!
    08-08-2013 10:39 PM
  15. dc9super80's Avatar
    Bottom line is Apple are on there 4th or 5th generation of ipads and 7th to 8th on phones. Both have got thinner, lighter, more powerful, more expensive while still running the same gazillion apps and providing the same experience and they've milked everyone.
    Using your film analogy if ive got to compare Apple to a movie its got to be Police Academy. So many versions and they got progressively more boring. Yeah they are fun for a few minutes then you realise its the same old stuff

    Surface comes along and brings more new stuff to the table in its first iteration than apple have managed to milk you for in buying the latest and greatest for the same experience the last 4 years.

    I mean Apple have had how many attempts at a tablet and they still cant split screen multitask?? How many attempts and there's still no integrated kickstand?? You going to tell me there isn't an app for that???
    Really dude, a kick stand makes the surface perfect. Have you guys any idea what people do on their ipads? I know people who pretty much hate to use their computer because it's challenging and find no problems with and in fact enjoy using their iPad. They can check their email, Facebook (now rather trans generational), look at Netflix and make video calls with Skype and face time, and no they don't need to do it all at the same time.

    Apple got a wider variety of people to enjoy their product with what to out of touch geeks seem to be over simplified. Few of these folks would want to fiddle with split screens and what not. Try to open your eyes and realize that some people who buy tech may not be as tech literate as you think you are. Apple doesn't need to change much or they would loose a big part of their customer base. Should a person want to fiddle with split screens and office and whatever, they have a great variety of options from MSFT and Google yo choose from. Should someone who uses apple because they enjoy the ecosystem decide to change because boredom, they too have many options. Everyone doesn't have to offer the same things.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
    FinancialP likes this.
    08-08-2013 11:03 PM
  16. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    Much of the interactive experiences are the detriment of modern education. Kids want to be constantly engaged and cannot sit still and read like they did in previous generations, since their attention spans are lacking due to the constant visual stimulation they've received since infancy.
    The problem isn't the kids. Its the archaic education system. We continue to try and teach 21st century minds with 20th century ideals. Interactive experiences should be a part of modern education. You can't claim to have a global and technical world and not have our education system be apart of that.

    With that being said, I think the whole idea that everyone is brainwashed by Apple is a bit dramatic
    Sanjay Chandra and dc9super80 like this.
    08-08-2013 11:06 PM
  17. FinancialP's Avatar
    I think people here have forgotten all the bashing Apple received before the iPad actually went on sale.

    Remember all of the "over sized iPod " jokes and their variations?

    Then the product came out and the rest is history.

    People were saying "oh, it doesn't have a USB port, it'll never sell!" .
    08-09-2013 01:08 AM
  18. Coreldan's Avatar
    Couldn't disagree more. My surface does everything I need and more. There is no way an ipad could come close. Surface offers so much more. Maybe if you weren't so mad at Microsoft in every thread, you might see it.
    Same thing for me. I most certainly can't take my Windows desktop PC with me to the university and work, Surface I however can't and it actually delivers the productivity that iPad wouldn't get even close to. At "off times" it also doubles as a tablet, even if perhaps not as good as a consumption device as iPad, it still does 90% of what I need from it as a consumption device, so to say it's "bad" at it is just wrong. Just cos it isn't the best doesn't mean it's bad.

    While I personally love my Surface, I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking for apps and games. Luckily I have no interest for either really as a flash enabled browser with full USB2 port does a lot more to me than having to download an app to do one thing. As for gaming, don't really care for mobile gaming.

    At home I can also so effortlessly remote control my Windows 8 PC, run all legacy apps and not even notice I'm doing it on remote control :P

    The iPad is a great device and has earned the sales it has gotten, but I could sadly never justify buying one. I have no interest in a purely consumption device.
    08-09-2013 01:41 AM
  19. Sanjay Chandra's Avatar
    Much of the interactive experiences are the detriment of modern education. Kids want to be constantly engaged and cannot sit still and read like they did in previous generations, since their attention spans are lacking due to the constant visual stimulation they've received since infancy.
    Indeed.

    That's why movies give better revenue than books even though books offer tiniest details which are missed by movies.
    08-09-2013 03:40 AM
  20. Sanjay Chandra's Avatar
    There's a lot of blame to go around:

    • The press writes biased articles which are meant to generate "ad-clicks".
    • The readers check out the articles and swallow every word without exercising any critical thinking.
    • Wall Street pumps the products to high heaven, in order to increase the company's stock price.
    • Consumers buy the products, despite the exorbitant price and lack of keyboard, Ethernet, HDMI, USB, microSD and Flash!
    • People -- like yourself -- go online to write posts damning the product that they've admitted to own.






    I have a different analogy:

    A guy builds a "vehicle" for $50. He manages to keep his production costs down by removing "non-essential" components from the vehicle such as: doors, windshield, passenger seats, trunk and air-conditioning. He touts his vehicle as the thinnest and most innovative ever made! He calls his vehicle a "car" and prices it at $1,000, claiming it's an absolute bargain! His marketing department convinces people that this so-called "car" is gonna make everyone look hip and cool. Result? Huge profits!


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yes , its simple and easy.
    That's exactly what Apple uses as logic.

    Cycle is also good for health , right ? You can market it in 1000 ways.
    Things you said about cycle is true , there is no brainwashing in that.
    It offers exactly what being advertised.I don't see how that's brainwashing.

    I never seen Apple showing an Ad as hipsters except Nokia/Samsung who encourage that mentality.


    Except the fact you forgot many things , like Industrial Design and Quality of the service and longer software updates , more better quality apps etc.

    For example , if you purchase OS X Mavericks for $20 , you also get fonts worth $1000 which many people don't see.

    Don't see Apple products as hardware wrapped in a package but look at services offered and user experience.
    08-09-2013 03:48 AM
  21. martinmc78's Avatar
    Really dude, a kick stand makes the surface perfect. Have you guys any idea what people do on their ipads? I know people who pretty much hate to use their computer because it's challenging and find no problems with and in fact enjoy using their iPad. They can check their email, Facebook (now rather trans generational), look at Netflix and make video calls with Skype and face time, and no they don't need to do it all at the same time.

    Apple got a wider variety of people to enjoy their product with what to out of touch geeks seem to be over simplified. Few of these folks would want to fiddle with split screens and what not. Try to open your eyes and realize that some people who buy tech may not be as tech literate as you think you are. Apple doesn't need to change much or they would loose a big part of their customer base. Should a person want to fiddle with split screens and office and whatever, they have a great variety of options from MSFT and Google yo choose from. Should someone who uses apple because they enjoy the ecosystem decide to change because boredom, they too have many options. Everyone doesn't have to offer the same things.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
    A kick stand makes it more useful and saves me from buying a proprietary cover/stand but it doesn't make the surface perfect by a long shot. I had an ipad2 until I got my Surface RT so I know full well what people use ipads for. And to be honest having used both its so refreshing to not have to stop editing a document to take a Skype call. Or to stop watching a film to check and respond to emails, or to have to keep flicking between my facebook and twitter pages. I can do what I need to without having to stop something else.

    Apple got a wider variety of people to enjoy tablets because they were first to successfully market the product - at the time they had no competition and with the Apple propaganda machine in full effect that wider variety of people just lapped it up. As you say there are now multiple options available and this thread was never about which device is better for you, me or joe public.

    This thread just proves the point that apple propaganda is still in force everywhere. Maybe more so now with the company losing market share and mindshare of the simple, tech illiterate public they first wooed.
    08-09-2013 04:02 AM
  22. dc9super80's Avatar
    A kick stand makes it more useful and saves me from buying a proprietary cover/stand but it doesn't make the surface perfect by a long shot. I had an ipad2 until I got my Surface RT so I know full well what people use ipads for. And to be honest having used both its so refreshing to not have to stop editing a document to take a Skype call. Or to stop watching a film to check and respond to emails, or to have to keep flicking between my facebook and twitter pages. I can do what I need to without having to stop something else.

    Apple got a wider variety of people to enjoy tablets because they were first to successfully market the product - at the time they had no competition and with the Apple propaganda machine in full effect that wider variety of people just lapped it up. As you say there are now multiple options available and this thread was never about which device is better for you, me or joe public.

    This thread just proves the point that apple propaganda is still in force everywhere. Maybe more so now with the company losing market share and mindshare of the simple, tech illiterate public they first wooed.
    So are you saying it would have been better if they lapped up MSFT propaganda? Its not about propaganda, its because Apple made a product that people like. There is no secret brain washing program going on. Aplple's customer satisfaction is high, because people enjoy using their device. My father is not a tech head and the iPhone 4 was his first smartphone and he found easy to use. But he finds my Nexus 7 annoying to use because things are not as straight forward. The same goes for my in laws, who love iPads.

    There is very small learning curve for most apples devices, and that makes them interesting for a certain segment of the population. I Dont like windows anymore, in fact I sold my Windows machine because I didn't not like Windows 8 and its useless in my way Modern UI, but I love Android but I must admit that its not going to be for everyone, and neither would windows 8 because there is a learning curve that many people would be interested in learning. IMHO at least.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
    08-09-2013 08:37 AM
  23. sinime's Avatar
    But people are overcharged for underpowered devices when they go with apple... And they seem to love doing so. And line up for it too... Granted, I'm talking more from a computer side of the fence.
    08-09-2013 03:47 PM
  24. WPhoney's Avatar
    Cycle is also good for health , right ? You can market it in 1000 ways.
    Things you said about cycle is true , there is no brainwashing in that.
    It offers exactly what being advertised.I don't see how that's brainwashing.
    You missed the point of my analogy -- willingly, I suppose. Apple sells bikes for the prices of cars, then convinces people to brag about their "investment". How is that different from the $300 designer jeans that sell at the mall, but whose manufacturing takes place in Honduras at the cost of $1 a piece? Or the expensive glasses that sell for $400 -- without the lenses, mind you -- despite costing peanuts to be manufactured? Or the HDMI cables sold by Monster Cables for $100+? It's obvious that, if challenged, the individuals who buy such items would turn and twist and come up with ingenious ways to rationalize their "investments".

    Apple sold the first 3 generations of the iPod with batteries that were designed to die after 18 months and whose replacement cost $300 (the device itself cost $500 back then). An abject case of Planned Obsolescence! And they made the iPad without HDMI, USB, microSD, Flash and, on the first model, there was no camera either (at a time when even a $50 feature-phone from RadioShack had cameras). They have no incentive to add such features as they can omit them and have much higher margins. To me, the relationship between Apple and its apologists (that's you, mate) is a form of Stockholm Syndrome.

    Well, here's an oldie but funny to end my part in this discussion.




    Blkacesvf41, a5cent and Psyk00 like this.
    08-09-2013 05:54 PM
  25. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    But people are overcharged for underpowered devices when they go with apple... And they seem to love doing so. And line up for it too... Granted, I'm talking more from a computer side of the fence.
    Or for the average Apple user, their devices are sufficient enough. At the end of the day, whether something is worth its the time or cost is a subjective and personal thing.
    08-09-2013 06:08 PM
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