02-24-2014 09:23 PM
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  1. scottcraft's Avatar
    Here's a good topic: LeBron has stated he wants to be considered the greatest or one of the greatest players ever to play in the NBA. Jordan is considered the greatest. Kobe is considered to be the closest to Jordan in playing style and drive and also has five rings.

    Questions:
    1: Is LeBron better than a healthy Kobe and if so how long has he been better.
    2: Historical has LeBron passed Kobe?
    3: What would it take for LeBron to be considered equal to or surpass Jordan and does he have a chance at doing it?

    My answers (I'm a LeBron fan so I might be biased):
    1: In my opinion LeBron has been better than Kobe for at least five years of not longer.
    2: I think LeBron and Kobe are at least equal with Kobe possibly having a slight edge due to playing at a high level into his thirties.
    3: I think LeBron needs at least four rings without losing any more finals. Also he needs to stay with the Heat and do it. With the current salary cap rules I think one player winning six is pretty much impossible. I don't know that LeBron can ever be considered Jordan's equal even if he wins six rings and a couple more MVP's. I think if he did that he should be considered equal, but Jordan is on such a pedastal most won't consider it.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-2013 06:36 PM
  2. Blkacesvf41's Avatar
    Here's a good topic: LeBron has stated he wants to be considered the greatest or one of the greatest players ever to play in the NBA. Jordan is considered the greatest. Kobe is considered to be the closest to Jordan in playing style and drive and also has five rings.

    Questions:
    1: Is LeBron better than a healthy Kobe and if so how long has he been better.
    2: Historical has LeBron passed Kobe?
    3: What would it take for LeBron to be considered equal to or surpass Jordan and does he have a chance at doing it?

    My answers (I'm a LeBron fan so I might be biased):
    1: In my opinion LeBron has been better than Kobe for at least five years of not longer.
    2: I think LeBron and Kobe are at least equal with Kobe possibly having a slight edge due to playing at a high level into his thirties.
    3: I think LeBron needs at least four rings without losing any more finals. Also he needs to stay with the Heat and do it. With the current salary cap rules I think one player winning six is pretty much impossible. I don't know that LeBron can ever be considered Jordan's equal even if he wins six rings and a couple more MVP's. I think if he did that he should be considered equal, but Jordan is on such a pedastal most won't consider it.
    I appreciate your honesty by saying that you're a Lebron's fan. I don't know how old you are, but I saw MJ play and the kinda consistency that guy had (Specially down the stretch in the biggest games) will never be matched. That's why he's the greatest ever. Also, let's not forget that the quality of players making it to the NBA has gone down in the last few years.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-2013 06:43 PM
  3. scottcraft's Avatar
    I appreciate your honesty by saying that you're a Lebron's fan. I don't know how old you are, but I saw MJ play and the kinda consistency that guy had (Specially down the stretch in the biggest games) will never be matched. That's why he's the greatest ever. Also, let's not forget that the quality of players making it to the NBA has gone down in the last few years.
    I'll be 39 Thursday. I've watched most of Jordan's career except maybe the first couple of years. Totally agree that he was very consistent. He was always attacking. Lebron has a tendency to appear indecisive at times and that hurts his visual appeal, but his game seven numbers are off the charts.

    I disagree with the quality of players coming into the NBA. For a while in the late 90's and early 2000's it seemed like scrubs coming into the league, but now it seems they are smarter and more athletic. Comparing today's game to the game Jordan played is really interesting to me, but it's so controversial.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-2013 07:20 PM
  4. Blkacesvf41's Avatar
    I'll be 39 Thursday. I've watched most of Jordan's career except maybe the first couple of years. Totally agree that he was very consistent. He was always attacking. Lebron has a tendency to appear indecisive at times and that hurts his visual appeal, but his game seven numbers are off the charts.

    I disagree with the quality of players coming into the NBA. For a while in the late 90's and early 2000's it seemed like scrubs coming into the league, but now it seems they are smarter and more athletic. Comparing today's game to the game Jordan played is really interesting to me, but it's so controversial.
    What I mean by the quality going down is that too many players are making the jump into the league from high school. Also, the referees call it so close nowadays. Back then they let them play. Don't you remember those Bulls series against Detroit and New York in the early 90's? They were basically brawling on the court!
    11-05-2013 07:31 PM
  5. raccoon210's Avatar
    I hate the officiating in the NBA. Let these grown men play! They're not 20 pounds they can take some abuse!!
    11-05-2013 07:33 PM
  6. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'll be 39 Thursday. I've watched most of Jordan's career except maybe the first couple of years. Totally agree that he was very consistent. He was always attacking. Lebron has a tendency to appear indecisive at times and that hurts his visual appeal, but his game seven numbers are off the charts.

    I disagree with the quality of players coming into the NBA. For a while in the late 90's and early 2000's it seemed like scrubs coming into the league, but now it seems they are smarter and more athletic. Comparing today's game to the game Jordan played is really interesting to me, but it's so controversial.
    I got 10 years on you and I can state unequivocally that Jordan couldn't carry the Bulls by himself coming out of college the way LeBron carried the Cavs. Matter of fact, it wasn't until '86 or so that he came into his own and after he got Pippen, the rest was history.

    Back to your questions, you can't compare a freight train like LeBron to lighter guards like Kobe or Michael. James can guard anything from centers to point guards. Kobe or Michael couldn't, so defensively alone, LeBron is better. Kobe doesn't dish so he's out of the assist equation. LeBron is also a better rebounder and shot blocker.

    If you want to compare pure shooters, I saw Pistol Pete Maravich play. Game over (honorable mention to The Iceman George Gervin). Want to talk all around offense, Oscar Robertson. The Big O averaged a triple-double for a full season and falls just short on rebounds for triple-doubles for his career. He did that in the era of Havlicek, Unseld, Reed, Bradlee, Frazier and many other greats of the game.
    MSFTisMIA and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-05-2013 08:12 PM
  7. scottcraft's Avatar
    What I mean by the quality going down is that too many players are making the jump into the league from high school. Also, the referees call it so close nowadays. Back then they let them play. Don't you remember those Bulls series against Detroit and New York in the early 90's? They were basically brawling on the court!
    Thanks to the Knicks and Pat Riley hand checking isn't allowed any more. It was definitely a different game back then. I really think it was easier playing defense in those days. Now you have to move your feet and play defense because you can't put your hands on players anymore.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-2013 09:01 PM
  8. mase123987's Avatar
    4-0, Paul George 31 points, 10 reb., 4 assists, 4 steals
    Laura Knotek and snowmutt like this.
    11-05-2013 09:03 PM
  9. scottcraft's Avatar
    I got 10 years on you and I can state unequivocally that Jordan couldn't carry the Bulls by himself coming out of college the way LeBron carried the Cavs. Matter of fact, it wasn't until '86 or so that he came into his own and after he got Pippen, the rest was history.

    Back to your questions, you can't compare a freight train like LeBron to lighter guards like Kobe or Michael. James can guard anything from centers to point guards. Kobe or Michael couldn't, so defensively alone, LeBron is better. Kobe doesn't dish so he's out of the assist equation. LeBron is also a better rebounder and shot blocker.

    If you want to compare pure shooters, I saw Pistol Pete Maravich play. Game over (honorable mention to The Iceman George Gervin). Want to talk all around offense, Oscar Robertson. The Big O averaged a triple-double for a full season and falls just short on rebounds for triple-doubles for his career. He did that in the era of Havlicek, Unseld, Reed, Bradlee, Frazier and many other greats of the game.
    You make some really good points. I think if LeBron would have played in Jordan's time he could have been one of the greatest defensive players of all time being physical and hand checking.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    11-05-2013 09:05 PM
  10. budney's Avatar
    How about them Lakers! Bahahah.... I'm glad my expectations weren't high. smh
    11-05-2013 09:10 PM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    4-0, Paul George 31 points, 10 reb., 4 assists, 4 steals
    That's excellent. Keep Conseco Fieldhouse or whatever they call it these days warm for us.
    11-05-2013 10:19 PM
  12. psudotechzealot's Avatar
    11-05-2013 11:16 PM
  13. Reflexx's Avatar
    Here's a good topic: LeBron has stated he wants to be considered the greatest or one of the greatest players ever to play in the NBA. Jordan is considered the greatest. Kobe is considered to be the closest to Jordan in playing style and drive and also has five rings.

    Questions:
    1: Is LeBron better than a healthy Kobe and if so how long has he been better.
    Yes.

    A healthy Kobe is still more skilled than LeBron; especially in the post. But a healthy Kobe's skill isn't enough to overcome LeBron's athletic advantages.

    2: Historical has LeBron passed Kobe?
    No. It is going to take greatness for an extended period of time. Maybe another 2 rings also.

    LeBron's skill and pure athletic talent and ability is unmatched right now. He's like a Wilt Chamberlain in a way. There is no other physical specimen in the league that can do what he does.

    It's his competitiveness that is going to need to improve.

    Don't get me wrong. He's improved A LOT in that area recently. But it is a recent phenomenon. He's going to have to be "that guy"... the one that wants the last shot... for a few more years.

    3: What would it take for LeBron to be considered equal to or surpass Jordan and does he have a chance at doing it?
    .
    When you're at the upper echelon, there is no real surpassing. It's just about being in the conversation. Some people still think Kareem, Wilt, Oscar, or Magic are the best players of all time. And all of them could make very good arguments.

    Kobe has it tough because his game is so close to Michael's that he can't surpass him unless he works miracles. Maybe get 7 rings or something.

    LeBron is closest to Magic... but is way more of an athletic freak.
    Laura Knotek and snowmutt like this.
    11-05-2013 11:21 PM
  14. Reflexx's Avatar
    How about them Lakers! Bahahah.... I'm glad my expectations weren't high. smh
    Without Kobe, I don't know if these guys will win any road games. They're a completely different team on the road for some reason.

    Well, it's only been 5 games... but still...
    Laura Knotek and snowmutt like this.
    11-05-2013 11:23 PM
  15. snowmutt's Avatar
    I have always liked the "best ever" conversation in the NBA because the while the positions are different, all players still have the chance to play offense and defense and the conversation is much more balanced then in other team sports. Even in the NHL has specialty postitions which makes harder to judge great players VS. great players. The NBA is the most "apples to apples" conversation.

    To me, the top 5 hasn't changed in a while:

    1) Wilt. I know, I know.... he didn't win the championships of every other player. So what? Find me another player in any sport that was more physically dominate over his peers in his time. 100 points in a single game. Averaging 50 points for a season. Still the NBA's all time leader in the following catagories: games with 50 points, consecutive games with 40 points, rebounding, field goal percentage, and he even led the league in assists in one of the years he played. And he did it playing on teams in which he was the first, second, and sometimes ONLY option. Most of these other players played on a lot more good teams then he did, but he willed them to respect just through his desire and he never gave up on a game. Just a physical freak during his time I do not think will ever be equaled again. Plus, I hate going with the pack, and saying Wilt was the greatest makes for a GREAT conversation starter.

    2) Jordan. His will to win and improve every aspect of his game puts him at the top of most every list, and his return to the Bulls after playing around in the White Sox organization to win more championships just cemented his position. I really can't argue against him as much as argue for Wilt.

    3) Kareem. Find me someone who did as much, as well, for as long, with as many different style of teams as this man. Seriously, he was drafted the year I was born and was still averaging a double/double for every game he played when I graduated high school. Jordan was a shell of himself in his last comeback. Most other elite players played half as long as him.

    4) Kobe. That's right- the Mamba desearves this. Maybe his reputation took a hit with that pesky trial about 10 years back, but this man was amazing on court. Maybe the most driven player since Jordan. He also sets himself apart for winning championships and pushing teams with different styles and different players around him.

    5) Bill Russell. He played on better teams, with more hall of fame talent, and was on the most consistently well run organization in the history of pro sports. But, cut those championships way down without this man. He had leadership oozing out of his pores. He would be the kind of man you would charge well fortified hills with, and he would lead the way. He made adjustments on the floor like a point gaurd, and refused to allow defeat to do more to those Cetics teams then motivate them. He worked on every aspect of his game like Jordan. Just calm and intense.

    Others, in no order:
    Magic, Bird, (They go together and made the NBA great) Oscar Robinson, Julius Irving, Isiah Thomas (how many other 6-foot B-Ball players could win games all by themselves?), Hakeem Olajuwon (still the most under rated player in the history of the NBA in my opinion), and Tim Duncan (the greatest player never, ever to be selfish).

    LeBron will be on this list. He could retire right now and would be a first ballot hall of famer. Where he ends up remains to be seen.
    11-06-2013 01:17 AM
  16. scottcraft's Avatar
    In regards to Kobe, I tend to not count the first three rings for purposes of all time great measuring purposes. My reasoning is that Shaq was the best player on those teams. I'm not saying Kobe wasn't very important, but Shaq was the horse they rode. In my thinking if you weren't the best player on the team the ring doesn't count in all time great standings. Otherwise Robert Horry has seven and he'd be ranked quite high and we all know he was a role player.

    This is great discussion, keep it up!
    11-06-2013 07:33 AM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    In regards to Kobe, I tend to not count the first three rings for purposes of all time great measuring purposes. My reasoning is that Shaq was the best player on those teams. I'm not saying Kobe wasn't very important, but Shaq was the horse they rode. In my thinking if you weren't the best player on the team the ring doesn't count in all time great standings. Otherwise Robert Horry has seven and he'd be ranked quite high and we all know he was a role player.

    This is great discussion, keep it up!
    Agreed. How many rings did Spider Salley get? He won with the Pistons, Bulls & Lakers. Sometimes it's good to be lucky, Will Perdue anyone?
    scottcraft likes this.
    11-06-2013 10:25 AM
  18. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    To play devils advocate, one can argue Shaq didn't win anything before Kobe. Granted, he went on to win another without him. But again, there was a similar player in Wade as his teammate as well.
    snowmutt likes this.
    11-06-2013 10:32 AM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    To play devils advocate, one can argue Shaq didn't win anything before Kobe. Granted, he went on to win another without him. But again, there was a similar player in Wade as his teammate as well.
    Are you implying that Nick Anderson wasn't a good teammate? Chooooooke!
    11-06-2013 11:03 AM
  20. scottcraft's Avatar
    To play devils advocate, one can argue Shaq didn't win anything before Kobe. Granted, he went on to win another without him. But again, there was a similar player in Wade as his teammate as well.
    I agree. I'm not saying Kobe wasn't a vital part of the team by any means, I'm just saying he wasn't the best player on the team. Similar to Pippen and Jordan. Without Pippen Jordan wouldn't have six rings, but Jordan is easily the better player.
    11-06-2013 11:54 AM
  21. stmav's Avatar
    Lebron will be an all time great and put up fantastic numbers. But he will never be the cold blooded, refuse to lose assassin that Jordan, Kobe, Bird and Magic were. In the series against the Mavs and other playoff series, there have been times when Lebron did not want the ball or the shot. He was passing it as soon as he got it. You would never see the above mentioned players do that. They lived for that moment and wanted the ball in their hands. Jason Terry even called him out then took it to him. Jordan or Kobe would've wiped the floor with Jet and destroyed him if he said that to them. Unreal ability and talent and all time stats are fine. But he does not compare to them in this other important area.
    Reflexx likes this.
    11-06-2013 11:55 AM
  22. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Lebron will be an all time great and put up fantastic numbers. But he will never be the cold blooded, refuse to lose assassin that Jordan, Kobe, Bird and Magic were. In the series against the Mavs and other playoff series, there have been times when Lebron did not want the ball or the shot. He was passing it as soon as he got it. You would never see the above mentioned players do that. They lived for that moment and wanted the ball in their hands. Jason Terry even called him out then took it to him. Jordan or Kobe would've wiped the floor with Jet and destroyed him if he said that to them. Unreal ability and talent and all time stats are fine. But he does not compare to them in this other important area.
    Even though he was taken from us way too soon, the most cold-blooded assassin I ever saw played for the Nets. His name was Drazen Petrovic.
    11-06-2013 12:09 PM
  23. stmav's Avatar
    Even though he was taken from us way too soon, the most cold-blooded assassin I ever saw played for the Nets. His name was Drazen Petrovic.
    You are so right. I'm a little older than you so I remember the players you mentioned earlier and Drazen. How much of a treat would it have been to see Sabonis in his prime and not the shell that finally played in the NBA years later?
    11-06-2013 12:21 PM
  24. scottcraft's Avatar
    Lebron will be an all time great and put up fantastic numbers. But he will never be the cold blooded, refuse to lose assassin that Jordan, Kobe, Bird and Magic were. In the series against the Mavs and other playoff series, there have been times when Lebron did not want the ball or the shot. He was passing it as soon as he got it. You would never see the above mentioned players do that. They lived for that moment and wanted the ball in their hands. Jason Terry even called him out then took it to him. Jordan or Kobe would've wiped the floor with Jet and destroyed him if he said that to them. Unreal ability and talent and all time stats are fine. But he does not compare to them in this other important area.
    The Dallas series is one LeBron is never going to live down. To be honest I don't understand how he could go from making clutch three's and locking down Rose to laying an egg against the Mavericks. I agree that Jordan and Kobe are/were continually in attack mode with no hesitation and both have made plenty of shots with the game on the line. I think Jordan started and Kobe reinforced the illusion that the best player on the team should take the final shot no matter what. Everyone forgets when discussing LeBron that Jordan passed to Paxson for a winning shot in the finals. Kobe has no issues with taking the final shot whether it's one on five or not. I think LeBron should have the ball in his hand in crunch time, but he should make the best play which isn't always him taking the shot. The way he draws the defense odds are if he gets doubleteamed there will be someone open with a clear look and few are better at hitting a teammate with a good pass than Lebron.

    You are so right. I'm a little older than you so I remember the players you mentioned earlier and Drazen. How much of a treat would it have been to see Sabonis in his prime and not the shell that finally played in the NBA years later?
    I don't know why, but I really don't remember Drazen. Maybe because he was on the Nets and his games weren't on prime time much? I've seen Sabonis on youtube and he was very impressive.
    11-06-2013 03:29 PM
  25. Reflexx's Avatar
    In regards to Kobe, I tend to not count the first three rings for purposes of all time great measuring purposes. My reasoning is that Shaq was the best player on those teams. I'm not saying Kobe wasn't very important, but Shaq was the horse they rode. In my thinking if you weren't the best player on the team the ring doesn't count in all time great standings. Otherwise Robert Horry has seven and he'd be ranked quite high and we all know he was a role player.

    This is great discussion, keep it up!
    Shaq was definitely the most dominant force. His sheer size made teams have to focus on him.

    I personally wouldn't call him the best player though. Skill-wise it wasn't even close. Kobe could run circles around him.

    Shaq would have no chance of ever having an 81 point game.
    snowmutt likes this.
    11-06-2013 06:42 PM
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